[spk454]

I know some of what you are going to say, as I've read many of your posts. Here's my question. When I originally read your posts on HEI vs. others. I had already bought an HEI clone from 4wd.com. I talked to my engine builder (he does 99% chevy for APBA and poker run boats) and he wanted to use it as my old motorcraft dizzy was in bad shape. Per one of your posts I ordered and they installed the crane adjustable vacuum and spring weight set. They also clocked the vacuum advance to get it out of the way of the PS belt. They degree wheeled the motor and verified TDC and the motor is running great. The mechanic who timed it said he liked the way the timing came in with the mechanical advance and left the vacuum advance capped. He said to attach it when the weather gets warmer and " see how i liked it". As I said the motor seems to run and idle great and pull strong (esp. considering my 2.73's). The questions...
The motor has been run a couple hundred miles. If I was going to have a problem with the drive gear would it already have happened? Should I consider switching the drive gear to one of the mallory's at summit?

I was considering switching to a vented cap and external coil/msd 6 box. Would I really be better off scrapping what I have and going back to a napa motocraft dizzy and building the msd 6 from there?

If I just run what I have, what is the best way of setting the adjustable vacuum and mech. advance springs in that crane kit.

The motor is a 360 with a speed pro cam (268 duration i think), 9.2 to 1 comp, edelbrock performer, holley 600 vacuum secondary, headers, etc.
thanks for any input...

[spk454]

Try this again; I'm reading your back and forth with CRT and am getting nervous about the gear on my HEI. should i buy the msd gear from summit and just replace it in case (got mine from 4wd.com, they say they have had no complaints...)? Also can you take a stab at my other questions?

[CJ Chet]

If it's not broke, don't fix it!!!!!!!!!!!

[Full Tank]

Obviously, I'm not Jeephammer.

Since the engine is broken in somewhat, you should probably pull the dizzy and give it a visual inspection sometime soon anyway...why not replace the gear with a quality unit if there is any doubt at all?

Cheap insurance IMO.

Good luck
FT

[JeepHammer]

Originally Posted by spk454

I know some of what you are going to say, as I've read many of your posts.

You are sharper than me then, cause I don't know what I'm going to write until it drops off my fingers!

Here's my question.
When I originally read your posts on HEI vs. others. I had already bought an HEI clone from 4wd.com. I talked to my engine builder (he does 99% chevy for APBA and poker run boats) and he wanted to use it as my old motorcraft dizzy was in bad shape.

Um, I'd call that more of an information/set up for a question than a question...

Per one of your posts I ordered and they installed the crane adjustable vacuum and spring weight set.

Crane did a pretty good job of copying the Ford factory adjustment for Vacuum Rate! I like the Crane version and recommend it regularly!
That really was one of Ford's 'Better Ideas'!
(Too bad the same guy with common sense didn't design the oiling system on the small block Ford engines... )

The way they limit the vacuum advance is like what we used to do with grinding/filing washers or dimes back in the old days!
Simple, but very effective!
You loose a little advance total, but you can actually correct the rotor phasing using that limiter if your rotor isn't WAY off...

They also clocked the vacuum advance to get it out of the way of the PS belt.

Sounds like your guy knows what he's doing so far!
-----------------

They degree wheeled the motor and verified TDC and the motor is running great.

OK, I don't know if you are thinking that a degree wheel finds TDC, or if you just ran those two things together...

Degree wheel is mostly used AFTER you verify TDC with a dial indicator or piston stop.
The degree wheel is there to verify that your CAM SHAFT LOBES are doing what they are supposed to do, when it's supposed to do it.

ALWAYS a good idea to degree in a cam shaft!
Especially if it came with an engine build 'Kit' and you don't know exactly who made it!

You never know that the timing set maker did either, so degreeing in a cam will VERIFY that the timing set is starting the cam where it's supposed to, and not have it advanced or retarded in relationship to the crankshaft position...

The mechanic who timed it said he liked the way the timing came in with the mechanical advance and left the vacuum advance capped.

Yup, and if he had plugged in that vacuum advance to manifold vacuum on an AMC engine, you would have had WAY TOO MUCH advance, especially at part throttle cruise with BOTH sets of advance are fully 'IN'!
(where most HEI complaints come from)

So again I say, It sounds like your guy knows what he's doing!

He said to attach it when the weather gets warmer and " see how i liked it". As I said the motor seems to run and idle great and pull strong (esp. considering my 2.73's).

2.73:1, big tires that drive that ratio up even farther, and leaned out part throttle cruise with both advances 'IN' at the same time...
I'm VERY SURE that will be WAY TOO MUCH advance for part throttle cruise!

If you want to try the vacuum advance, get a 'Knock Sensor' first, and if you are using a carb with spark ported vacuum, USE THE SPARK PORTED VACUUM!
If not (like with an MC 2100), use a vacuum source as close to the carb Ventruies as you can get!
Don't use the manifold vacuum if you can get around it...

The questions...
The motor has been run a couple hundred miles. If I was going to have a problem with the drive gear would it already have happened? Should I consider switching the drive gear to one of the mallory's at summit?

I don't know.
It mostly depends on the gear you have...

It sure wouldn't hurt to pull the distributor, remove the gasket, and insert the distributor again...
If the distributor housing rests on the timing cover housing WITHOUT the gasket, the the shaft isn't too long. Common problem with the aftermarket for some reason...

When it's too long, it pushes down on the oil pump impeller (gears), driving the impeller it's hooked to into the floor plate of the oil pump...
ALWAYS A BAD THING TO BIND UP YOUR OIL PUMP!!

While it's out, you can inspect both the cam shaft gear (flashlight down hole) and have a GOOD LOOK at the distributor gear.

See how the V-8 gear (on right) in this picture has a 'Crinkle Finish' to the cast iron just below the teeth?



That's cast iron molding to the sand casting form.
This lets you know you have a cast iron gear, and not one of the steel gears that are doing so much damage.

Doesn't mean your gear doesn't have problems, but it does mean you are headed in the right direction!

Some of the cast iron gear manufacturers machined the oil pump collar all the way to the teeth, and if they did, there really is no way for 'Joe Average' to tell if it's iron or steel...

The wear pattern on the distributor gear & cam gear will usually tell you if things are doing OK or not.
Lot's of excessive wear on the distributor gear means it was cheap cast iron, probably from Mexico or China,
Excessive wear on the cam gear will mean you have a Steel gear, probably from Spain.
If you have the steel gear, look for 'Sliver' type chipping off the edges of the teeth where the case hardened steel chipped off right away, and those sharp edges have been eating away at your cam gear ever sence.

Remember, all those sharp, HARDENED slivers are still in the engine!
Small enough to get into the oil pump where they can do some REAL damage!
MAGNET TIME at the very least, and remove oil pan and pump for clean out if you are smart!

I was considering switching to a vented cap and external coil/msd 6 box. Would I really be better off scrapping what I have and going back to a napa motocraft dizzy and building the msd 6 from there?

To be quite frank about it, the Motorcraft distributor is better for the application with a Ford large cap and rotor.
MSD plugs right in with an adapter, and the Motorcraft distributor uses the same kind of trigger MSD & NASCAR uses...
Or should I say MSD & NASCAR use Ford style triggers!

If I just run what I have, what is the best way of setting the adjustable vacuum and mech. advance springs in that crane kit.

If you hook up the vacuum advance (and you should if you street drive this thing or do low speed 'Off Road' operations), but you are going to have to back the centrifugal advance WAY down and do some serious limiting of the vacuum advance, both in rate (Allen wrench in vacuum canister) and total advance (physical limiter).

The motor is a 360 with a speed pro cam (268 duration i think), 9.2 to 1 comp, edelbrock performer, holley 600 vacuum secondary, headers, etc.
thanks for any input...

That Holley is going to save your life with the HEI!
It has a spark ported vacuum source right above the passenger side idle mixture screw!

Get a knock sensor,
Back down that centrifugal advance (heavier springs) and connect your vacuum advance to spark ported vacuum...
Start tuning!

Remember, knock sensor resell VERY QUICKLY once you have your engine dialed in, but they are like vacuum gauges, once you learn to use one correctly, most people don't want to give them up!
I don't know what I'd do with out mine and my fuel mixture indicator now that Unleaded makes the plugs so darned hard to read and I don't have a dyno anymore!

[happydog]

If its not broke, fix it until it is.

[bjf498]

Originally Posted by happydog

If its not broke, fix it until it is.

Good idea wait until the dizzy gear eats the cam gear to death leaving you on side of the road and possibly changing ALL of the bearings.

I would just like to add a few things having just gone through hell with my hei I got from 4wd.com. When I got my hei I just stuck it in my 360 not thinking anything of it until about a month or so later my jeep just up and quit running. after hours of trying to set the Dam timing only to see the it keeps jumping timing, I pulled the hei out the gear on the hei looks brand new no wear marks at all.....now the cam gear on the other hand had almost no teeth left.
after hours of searching the net for answers I came up with this site: Bulltear.com they have a forum dedicated to amc powered things, they also sell custom amc engine parts like high pressure oil pump, nickel plated timing covers, HD matched camshaft and dizzy gears, ect...
Here is a stick on cam gear where(http://www.bulltear.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2039) i think you have to register.

[Cherokeester]

Originally Posted by bjf498

Good idea wait until the dizzy gear eats the cam gear to death leaving you on side of the road and possibly changing ALL of the bearings.

I would just like to add a few things having just gone through hell with my hei I got from 4wd.com. When I got my hei I just stuck it in my 360 not thinking anything of it until about a month or so later my jeep just up and quit running. after hours of trying to set the Dam timing only to see the it keeps jumping timing, I pulled the hei out the gear on the hei looks brand new no wear marks at all.....now the cam gear on the other hand had almost no teeth left.
after hours of searching the net for answers I came up with this site: Bulltear.com they have a forum dedicated to amc powered things, they also sell custom amc engine parts like high pressure oil pump, nickel plated timing covers, HD matched camshaft and dizzy gears, ect...
Here is a stick on cam gear where(http://www.bulltear.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2039) i think you have to register.

Ok so I went to Bulltear.com and they have an HEI listed there for $189.00. No mention of gear makeup or such. Am I to understand that all HEI's in the world are POS's and are going to eat my cam gear to shreds? Or did I read one of Jeephammers posts where there is one company that makes a decent gear?

[JeepHammer]

Originally Posted by bjf498

Good idea wait until the dizzy gear eats the cam gear to death leaving you on side of the road and possibly changing ALL of the bearings.

Usually isn't the bearings that go first when the distributor/cam gear give up, it's the oil pump.
Silvers eat up and sometimes lock up the oil pump, but normally the filter catches them (thank god!) before the make it to the oil galleries and bearings...

I would just like to add a few things having just gone through hell with my hei I got from 4wd.com. When I got my hei I just stuck it in my 360 not thinking anything of it until about a month or so later my jeep just up and quit running. after hours of trying to set the Dam timing only to see the it keeps jumping timing, I pulled the hei out the gear on the hei looks brand new no wear marks at all.....now the cam gear on the other hand had almost no teeth left.

Pretty common story for guys that have fallen victim to the hardend steel gears that are oversized...

after hours of searching the net for answers I came up with this site: Bulltear.com they have a forum dedicated to amc powered things, they also sell custom amc engine parts like high pressure oil pump, nickel plated timing covers, HD matched camshaft and dizzy gears, ect...
Here is a stick on cam gear where(http://www.bulltear.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2039) i think you have to register.

The owner of Bulltear is a guy named Matthew Crescenzo.
He is the guy importing the Spanish HARDENED STEEL GEARS!

You won't get a stright answer over at Bulltear.
There is a 'Party Line' and if you don't tow that party line you will be abused to no end and Matthew Crescenzo will have you banned.
One word about the gears that Bulltear is selling, and you WILL BE BANNED!
You can't get the truth of the situation out over there regarding this problem.

[jeepsr4ever]

When your ready to talk distributor gears let me know

[crusty75]

My jeep came with a DUI brand ign, been in there for quite a while, it was installed by the po. The jeep runs like a watch. But i've got a lot of respect for Jeephammer's knowledge, and reading his opinions of HEI, I got really nervous.

So I went to DUI's website tech section. From what I could tell, DUI uses a cast iron gear, origin unknown. It also appears brass gears are available. They also address the shaft length issue, although addressing length issues with Ford and Chevy engines with no mention of AMC. But they do describe the procedure to determine if your shaft length is correct, and offer special shims to adjust for specific engines. They also make a great big deal about how each dizzy ships with a custom advance curve for your engine.

So they seem to have covered all the issues.

And for what they charge, they better. I would hope that for that outrageous price you get better quality components assembled with reasonable care. They seem aware of the issues, and seem to do a pretty good job of addressing them.
So I'm starting to feel a little better about things.

Or not. Am I wrong here? I'm no expert, thats why I'm askin'.

[HighCountry]

They may have done it correctly! I would still go with the divorced Ignition Coil setup!

Bruce

[JeepHammer]

Originally Posted by crusty75

So I went to DUI's website tech section. From what I could tell, DUI uses a cast iron gear, origin unknown.

There in lies the problem. If you were using nothing but the very best parts, wouldn't you use that as a selling point?

Cast iron is a good place to start, but several of the cast iron gears have some other problems too.
I'd pull/inspect it after it's been in a while, and I'd darn sure do the check for housing and shaft clearance before I bolted one down!
(I do that with every distributor, not just the HEI clones...)
Just common sense when you are fitting a new part, but it seems a lot of people skip that part for some reason...

It also appears brass gears are available.

We covered brass gears before, and unless you are running a steel camshaft, like with roller lifters, you really shouldn't need one...

They also address the shaft length issue, although addressing length issues with Ford and Chevy engines with no mention of AMC.

Yup, we are a 'Secondary Market'.
Don't expect anyone to make it easier on us anytime soon either.
Most guys that make or sell AMC products are smelling a profit, not in it to get out the best product they can make...

I wish they would make (or have made) the very best products they can, then figure a fair price...
But most places will look at cost and profit margin first.
That's why there are so may half baked products we have to wade through and deal with now.

But they do describe the procedure to determine if your shaft length is correct, and offer special shims to adjust for specific engines.

That is a good, and bad thing...
If the housing were made to at least factory spec, then the 'Shims' shouldn't be nessary...
But on the same thought, the factory did make lots of changes down through the years, and you need to make a product fit as may applications as you can to be profitable...
I see both sides, but the instructions have to be CRYSTAL CLEAR!
If the consumer CAN screw it up, he WILL screw it up!

Just to get the instruction envelope opened, we have started printing 'DO NOT OPEN' in 4" block letters on the front of the envelope!
We were having people return product that 'DIDN'T FIT' and the instruction envelope hadn't even been opened.

If you put 'DO NOT OPEN' on the front, it's the first thing they tear into!
Sneaky, but effective!
------------------------------

They also make a great big deal about how each dizzy ships with a custom advance curve for your engine.

I have a WAY hard time with that!
Emission law changes would have made the 'Correct' advance curve nearly impossible with out having someone know EXACTLY what engine, transmission, tire size and emissions laws in your particular state, along with what camshaft you are running, carb, ect.
All of that will effect the 'Correct' advance curve, and unless you have a Rich/Lean indicator and a tail pipe sniffer hooked up while tuning the vehicle on a Dyno, It's pretty much 'One Size Fits All' out the door.

I'm sure the same advance head is used on all distributor shafts, so the same amount of centrifugal advance from every distributor is what you are going to get...
Keeping 40 different kinds of shafts for each engine type would take up a LOT of space, and require a custom built distributor, (not 'Tuned') for each applicaiton.

Same with vacuum canisters.
I'd just bet none of you get an advance limiter, or if you do, it's in a parts envelope and not in the distributor, attached and tuned for your application,...
So you all get the same amount of vacuum advance, you have to tune yourselves...

I'd sure like to see the place that puts every distributor on a machine and tunes the vacuum advance rate, the vacuum advance limiter, the centrifugal advance springs (Rate) and the centrifugal advance amount (machining or welding up the advance slot) for every distributor...

I spend about 3 hours on every (Different) distributor, Making sure it fits blueprint specs, checking for all sorts of fit and wear specs before I let that distributor go out the door...
I just can't see ANY of the clone companies doing that...
---------------------

So they seem to have covered all the issues.

If what they are posting is true and accurate...
Remember, there is a company advertising a 'Low Saturation Module' as a selling feature.
Others brag about 50,000 to 70,000 volts from the coil, which is totally necessary, and something EVERY factory coil can do, but it's not 'Healthy' for the coil and it's robbing the spark plug of other Usable Spark Energy, like Duration and Amperage.

And for what they charge, they better. I would hope that for that outrageous price you get better quality components assembled with reasonable care.

I'd hope so too!
Think about this, a custom shop would take about 3 hours to build/check/inspect/correct everything in an HEI.
3 hours at $50 to $75 an hour, plus top quality parts...

Now, what people should do is take that engine to someone with a Chassis Dyno, or at least the proper tuning equipment and pay for another hour getting it 'Dialed In' so it works to the best of it's ability...
(but that ain't going to happen anytime soon!)

They seem aware of the issues, and seem to do a pretty good job of addressing them.
So I'm starting to feel a little better about things.

Or not. Am I wrong here? I'm no expert, thats why I'm askin'.

The last one that crossed my bench from DUI was about 5 or 6 years ago, and I wasn't impressed.
Mostly after market stock replacment parts in a housing that didn't index so the famous vacuum advance against the power steering belt problem cropped up.
Typical leaky HEI with the only upgrade I could see was an adjustable vacuum advance.

The module was doing some pretty strange stuff, but after a module change (Stock GM) and the proper heat transfer paste it was back to being it's leaking, cross firing/ground firing self.
-----------------------------

Check your install depth.
This is pretty easy, take the gasket out and see if the housing bottoms out on the timing cover.
If it doesn't, the shaft/housing is too long.

If it does, take it out, put the gasket back on, and closely inspect the gears for wear pattern.
Steel gears, or worse yet, Hardened Steel gears are really hard on the cam gear.

If someone was foolish enough to use the hardened set of gears, look for 'Slivers' chipped off the gears, in which case it's time for an oil pump removal and oil pan removal and clean out!

If you just got a steel gear on the distributor, look for cam gear that looks like it got gang raped! You distributor gear will look pretty well new, but the cam gear will be completely trashed!
Again, that's a lot of metal in the engine in a size that will get though the oil sump screen, so I'd recommend a clean out of the oil pan and a close inspection of the oil pump.
------------------

If everything looks fine, and the housing is the correct length, and the gears look good, PLEASE let us know!
It would also be good to know what make/model distributor you have...
I know you said DUI, but I don't know of they offer different 'Add On's or not, so if it's working, I'd like to know in specific what distributor you are running...

[spk454]

My distributor is not a DUI, it's from a company in florida (can't remember which, I'm on vacation and it's written at home) I called friday morning to ask about the gear and they didn't get back to me as of friday night, will try again this week. i bought it from 4wd.com, they know nothing except the name and phone number of the company they buy it from. I'll keep you updated. I'm definitely gonna pull it as soon as I have a garage. (next few weeks I hope)...

[crusty75]

JeepHammer,

Thanks for taking the time to post at such length and thought. In that spirit, I have just returned from an excursion to the jeep parking area, currently being snowed upon. I wanted to do “the test”, and see if I could find a model number.

Pulled the thing, removed the gasket, stuck it back in, and is sure seemed like the housing bottomed to me. I could feel the friction between diz and the block, no crack that I could see with the light. Forgot to look for the model #. It has to be the normal “custom” one for a 258 on their website. It's dark and snowing, but I'm a German, so I have satisfied myself that all is correct. I looked at the cam gear, what I could see looked fine, I wasn't willing to turn it and open that can of worms. Dizzy gear has shiny marks on the teeth, kind of in the middle part, fading at the top and bottom. Good? Bad? You tell me. Not my area of expertise.

Just to have things upfront here, I don't have much of an investment in this DUI thing, PO paid for it, along with the again super high dollar Livewire plug wires. I know the po quite well, and the can really squeak. So my hat is off to the marketing guy, or the salesman, or the mechanic, or whoever caused the tightwad to spend right near $500 for the stuff. Really. I stand in awe of your sales ability, whoever you are.

Some Background:

I believe the DUI was installed in Santa Barbara two years before I got my hands on the jeep. On the coast, it ran on the street, and if any trail at all, well maintained fireroads in the costal hills. Apparently worked great for the guy. I guess he had spent many years and dollars, paying mechanics to “fix” the balky stock ignition, and the DUI was the cure for him. The poor guy has no “mechanical genes” , but he's got a ton of money. To his great credit, he's also smart enough to know what he doesn't know, an unbelievably rare trait anymore.

What I'm trying to say is that I think I understand your position. I suspect it sticks in your craw to watch the shuckems take the money for an inferior solution, especially when a cheaper, better thing is out there. I gotta agree 110%. I have my field of expertise, and when people won't listen, it just breaks my heart sometimes. What are ya gonna do?

I live at about 3500ft, Drive the jeep up and down to town at 1500ft on the street to get the food. Other than that, its up and down the trails from the river to about 8000ft. Summer here, common over 100*. Winter down to 10*-20*. Your standard summer choking dust, winter snow, fall and spring major mud. Since I've had it, the thing starts quickly, idles smoothly, and is willing to run well past peak hp rpm without missing. Idles along the trail, runs 70 on the freeway. I wrote all that to help define what I mean by “runs like a watch”.

I'm running the 258, so there is no issue with clearance as the dizzy is in the middle of the right side on the block. On the opposite side are the headers (PO again) pretty much the only non stock thing under the hood. 1bbl Carter YF, T14, D20, 3.73s. I changed out the original stock size radial tires for some old school 7.00-15 bias ply beasties because manzanita stumps and shale eat them comfy radials. The new tires measure 30”, a 2” gain. Not much. Stock cam, CA emissions exempt and removed.

Again, surprisingly, Davis asks for the above info to custom tailor your dizzy. I didn't take the time to read it, but I'll betcha that's gonna cost way more than the standard “custom” dizzy on their site. I'll also bet that their “standard custom” dizzy has at least been modified enough to have the proper curve for a stock 258, of whatever given year. Non stock stuff like my headers, you're gonna pay a lot extra for that extra time tuning the thing. If it takes you 3 hours to set one up properly, they aren't gonna be able to do much better.

This is their website http://www.performancedistributors.com/ Yep, they've got the race proven, ours is the best marketing thing going on, to include the mega amp alternators. (I'm not gonna go there). I was a businessman for years and years, I understand hype and marketing. Bottom line, sell = survive.
Don't have a problem with it.

It would be great if you could find the time/energy/interest to poke around on their site, and let us know what you think. I went right to their FAQ/Tech section...didn't spend much time on the part with pretty pictures and descriptions.

My take on the whole thing?

First, from my personal experience and knowledge, since the DUI was installed 3 years ago, it has been flawless. (kinda creepy)

Second, every issue brought up has been addressed on their website. At the very least, they are aware of , and admit to the problems you've mentioned, as far as I can tell. Surprising. You have tremendous specific knowledge on the subject, and they talk the same stuff. That tells me that they may be as on the ball as you are. There's a better than fair chance they know what they are doing, compared to other HEI cloners. Just as MSD stands out in their area.

Money/Quality? The thing costs $390! After reading their site, I would be surprised if they do not use roller bearings and higher commercial quality parts. Way, way better than the $149 ebay specials. Otherwise they would have been lynched in cyberspace years ago. I've bumped around a bit, and I haven't seen much evidence of that.

Conclusion? If ya just gotta go HEI, DUI is more expensive, and probably better engineered, with better parts than the others. The thing will work properly for a reasonable length of time, won't destroy your motor. But it's gonna cost ya. Kind of like a Leica. Great camera, high quality, well designed, but there are better, cheaper alternatives out there. But if you've got the money, and you're short on the tech knowledge, you're gonna be fine. And there is a better, WAY cheaper alternative out there.

Me? After all this research and input and thinkin and testin...I'm not gonna worry about it anymore. I'm gonna run it until the cost of repair exceeds the cost of doing the MSD thing. Gears weren't chewed up to my tired old eyes, and bottom line, the jeep is smooth running and reliable, and has been that way for the three years the DUI has been installed.

I satisfied that the DUI brand clone is just fine. Won't hurt a thing. Quality parts (carbon free cap for example) and a well thought out design, which adresses all the issues you've brought up.

I'm gonna invest in an oil analysis, though. Can't hurt.

I really appreciate all your time and insight on the matter. Folks might think all this is making a mountain out of a molehill, but as far as I'm concerned, aftermarket “improvements” that destroy engines deserve to be discussed.