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Unread 01-15-2012, 09:02 PM   #1
SugarBear
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Buick 225 Distributor

Alright, well I am planning an ignition upgrade in the near future for my '5, because it seems like it is a very neccesary upgrade for 5's as old as mine..

I have read about the TeamRush upgrade extensively, so this post is for anyone that has done it to their jeep, including JeepHammer.. This is a picture of my existing distributor. Is this the stock one? Do the plug wires look like they need to be replaced, or are they in good condition? I guess I am honestly asking if this whole setup looks fine for now, as I have never had an issue where my Jeep wouldn't start for me, or died while running. It does, however, seem like my Jeep runs a little low at the RPM's while idling though.. I have no idea if that is just how it is supposed to run, or if the ignition upgrade and new distributor would even affect that.. But here it is guys, tell me what you think!

Caleb

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Unread 01-15-2012, 09:03 PM   #2
SugarBear
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Correction, here it is..

And for clarification, I have a '69 CJ5, with the Buick 225 Odd-fire in it.

image-1900414571.jpg  
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Unread 01-15-2012, 09:36 PM   #3
JeepHammer
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Pull that Delco breaker point distributor and put in an HEI for an Odd Fire Buick.

Cheap, easy to do, will make a BUNCH of difference...

You may have to do a little grinding on the intake to make it fit, but it's WELL WORTH the trouble!
The faster you get rid of those breaker points, the sooner your idle problems will go away.
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Unread 01-15-2012, 11:51 PM   #4
SugarBear
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Haha, just what I was hopin' JeepHammer! Then that is the route I will be going. Do you know the easiest place to get a Buick Odd Fire distributor? You said I could maybe find it at a parts store, AutoZone, O'Reilly's?

Caleb
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Unread 01-16-2012, 07:21 AM   #5
JeepHammer
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ODD FIRE!

IF YOU HAVE A V-6 'JEEP' ENGINE ('66-'71), YOU SHOULD KNOW THE TERM!


The 'V-6 Jeep' Engine is actually a 'Dauntless' 225 V-6 GM engine.
It's an 'Odd Fire' design, which means you are pretty much stuck with a GM HEI for a distributor for an upgrade.

They are available from parts stores very readily, and with a little work, The HEI will fit into your engine, giving you ELECTRONIC IGNITION and getting rid of those breaker points which are a nightmare...
Along with getting rid of the old 'Socket' Type distributor cap so you can use modern plug wires.


-----------------------------------------------

The '76 Buick Skyhawk is a pretty good HEI donor for a distributor for the 'Dauntless' Odd Fire Engine.



-----------------------------------------------------------------

The ODD FIRE trigger in the distributor is an odd looking thing,
Really an engineering feat, but strange looking!



The way this works is:
You fire TWO cylinders at a time, One at the correct COMPRESSION STROKE TIMING,
The other 'Sister Cylinder' Fires on Exhaust Stroke along with the primary cylinder in each firing cycle.

When the 'Sister' cylinder is on compression stroke, the same two terminals on the cap fire,
This time you are sparking the EXHAUST stroke of the primary cylinder.

It's a strange way to do thing, but it will work!


-----------------------------------------------------------

GET A BRASS TERMINAL VERSION OF THE CAP!

ACCELL verion of the brass terminal EVEN FIRE (evenly spaced terminals) distributor cap & rotor, About $35.
This is just so show you what a reasonable cap would look like... NOT BLACK & HAS BRASS TERMINALS!





This is to show you the oddly spaced terminals on the cap...





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Cap Center 'Button' and gasket. Also refered to as the 'RESISTOR' for an HEI system.



------------------------------------------------

The ROTOR looks very much like the V-8 Rotor, although some will NOT interchange with the common V-8 Rotor, some will interchange the V-8 rotor just fine.



-------------------------------------------

Ignition Coil with small metal 'Ground' strap you MUST have to make the ignition work correctly...



Three angle view of the coil 'Ground' strap...



------------------------------------------------------

ALL THE SAME RULES APPLY AS ABOVE IN THE STANDARD 'COIL IN CAP' HEI.

You WILL NEED Heat Transfer Paste,
You WILL NEED a reasonable set of plug wires,
You WILL NEED Dielectric Grease for the cap insulator,
You WILL NEED to make sure the coil screws aren't too long,
You WILL NEED to take the Ignition Resistor out of the old coil wire Positive (+) supply wire to get best performance...


-------------------------------------------------

The correct firing order on 225 Odd fire is started on factory designated #1, Then fires 6-5, 4-3, 2-1.

Your cylinders actually fire two at a time, one on 'Compression' stroke, while it's sister cylinder is on 'Exhaust' stroke...

Your Distributor cap must have the terminals connected so you get the correct firing order.

You MUST start at the FACTORY DESIGNATED #1 with your firing order or you will NEVER get the engine running correctly.

If you have an EVEN FIRE distributor cap, you will NEVER get the engine running correctly.


Does this help?
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Unread 01-16-2012, 10:25 AM   #6
SugarBear
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Yeah, it did! That is definitely an odd way to run an engine.. Cool though. Actually seems like it would be more efficient..

So out of many of the parts listed above, when I go to the parts store for the Odd-Fire distributor, what parts are they gonna hand me? No cap, or coil? I will buy those seperately?

And *** for spark plugs/plug wires should I pull them and see what condition they look like? You said "then you will be able to use modern plug wires".. What do you mean?
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Unread 01-16-2012, 11:36 AM   #7
mopar408
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I'd pay good money to be in AutoZZZZone when you( not really knowing exactly what you want) start trying to explain all this to the "technical advisor" who is really lost unless it's something you can pour in or on your car.
Just sayin'....

FWIW early Honda 2-cylinder motorcycles used this "empty cylinder" system and siamese'd coils, since it only used one set of points ( JH, this makes us sound OLD)
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Unread 01-16-2012, 11:55 AM   #8
walkerhoundvm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mopar408 View Post
I'd pay good money to be in AutoZZZZone when you( not really knowing exactly what you want) start trying to explain all this to the "technical advisor" who is really lost unless it's something you can pour in or on your car.
You're taking parts from one model...and putting them in another?!?

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Unread 01-16-2012, 12:50 PM   #9
SugarBear
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Mopar.. You're tellin' me! I hate when you go to AutoZone, and you KNOW they have the part you need, but they're like "Umm it seems we don't carry that part, maybe I can order it for you, let me look around here..(clicking around on computer).."

They did that to me for 15 minutes last week for a radiator cap. I hate when parts store guys act like we don't know about our vehicles..

I used to try and buy TJ parts, and they'd be like "oh this only fits 02 and up" and I'd be like no dumba$$, they are all the same, 97 to 06..

Anyway. Reply to the thread JH, get it back on track..
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Unread 01-16-2012, 03:22 PM   #10
JeepHammer
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I like the '76 Buick Sky Hawk...
The turned up vacuum advance nipple makes for an easier install.
Distributor, cap, rotor, coil, ect.

PREMIUM CAP & ROTOR and get some reasonable plug wires!
With this particular ignition, a good current path to the plugs is well worth PREMIUM caps and wires...
The center button in the distributor (Called a 'Resistor' for some strange reason at most parts stores) should also be a 'Premium' unit.

With the older caps, you will notice the terminals outside are oddly spaced,
With modern caps, the external terminals are sometimes evenly spaced, but the terminals inside will be in odd locations.

--------------------

Quote:
And *** for spark plugs/plug wires should I pull them and see what condition they look like? You said "then you will be able to use modern plug wires".. What do you mean?
You have SOCKET terminals on your current cap/plug wires at the cap...

The HEI will have TOWER type, or 'HEI' terminals, like spark plugs have,
So you will have to change the spark plug wires for them to work with an HEI.

When you switch wires, BUY A GOOD SET!

If you go with MSD 'Cut To Fit' wires, they will last you a good 10 years or more for your money, and they have great terminals, boots, insulation, conductors, come with a crimping tool and good instructions for about $80

The older, '60's and '70s wires are Graphite Core wires, and they are TERRIBLE!
Graphite is a 'Resistor', so it chokes much of your spark energy off before it reaches the plugs,
And once the graphite is cracked, you will start to burn a gap in the graphite as spark energies come down the wires.
Every time the spark energy jumps the gap, the gap burns back a little more...
They have LOUSY insulation, totally inadequate for the spark energy Voltages and Amperages you are going to make with the HEI,

There was a big movement back in the 40s, 50s, 60s & 70s to choke down 'NOISE' created by engine ignitions.
They were VERY noisy, they bothered radios, TVs, ect, and when (Rich & powerful) people complained, Laws were passed to make these ignition systems more 'Quite' in the radio spectrum.

Now, with the PRIMITIVE knowledge they had about radio signals at the time,
The best way to achieve a more 'QUITE' ignition was to use a 'Resistor'.
They had to comply with the LAW, so ignitions suffered.
No one really cared until about '73 when the oil crunch first hit... At 35 cents a gallon, no one really worried about more mileage, so they crippled the ignition system.

Then 'Smog' laws, the 'Oil' crunch, came along and someone FINALLY found a solution to the plug wire problem...

MSD has the best built version of that solution, and since the plug terminal bend from Straight past 90 degrees, you can bend them to fit your particular plug application to clear headers, exhaust manifolds, brackets, ect.

Good conductors get the current to the plug without choking the life out of it, so your plugs get fired more often,
And since you are trying to fire TWO plugs each time the distributor fires, you had better get GOOD WIRES...

They don't make noise, they work GREAT to get the plugs fired,
And they have spring loaded terminals that 'Snap Lock' into place on the cap and plug,
They have GREAT boots, insulation, ect.
So it's a case where you actually get what you pay for instead of some 'Designer' name.

Since your 'OBJECTIVE' is to get good, clean, high power spark energy to that spark plug so it can fire...
It just does NOT make sense to get a cheap aluminum terminal cap, rotten spark plug wires, ect. and defeat you of your 'OBJECTIVE'...

BTW, MSD makes an odd fire set of wires that snaps directly on the engine,
But DO NOT buy 'Street Fire' wires from MSD.
They are made in 'China' and they aren't any better than the 'Over The Counter' wires you get from the parts stores...

I use the 'Cut To Fit' sets because you can get the wires EXACTLY the correct length,
And those sets are still made from the best materials for street engines.

-----------------------------------

Yup, I'm PLENTY old, even worked on opposed tractor & water pump/trashing machine engines that fired both plugs at once.
Motorcycles are most common for firing two cylinders at once, and it's often a hard concept to grip sometimes.
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