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Unread 01-07-2010, 03:11 PM   #1
cgi2099
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Borg Warner T5 Help!!

Ok i have a borg warner t5 in my 1984 cj7 with a 258 i6. I want a good 4 wheel drive that will take me just about anywhere. My question is should i keep the t5 or sell that and get like a borg warner t18 or gm sm465 and drop in it?

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Unread 01-07-2010, 03:21 PM   #2
80cj
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The T-18 and SM465 are heavy duty truck 4 speeds with granny low first gears. If you do a lot of crawling, the compound low first gear will be good. In terms of ruggedness and reliability, either of those tranny's will probably be the last thing to break on your CJ. The things they give up to the T-5 are weight, shifting effort, intermmediate gear ratios and the overdrive gear. Remember, the heavy duty four speeds are basically 3 speeds with an extra low first (and reverse).
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Unread 01-07-2010, 08:22 PM   #3
retrofit9
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I have the t-18 and it has a great unsynchronised 1st gear but...... At 55mph the Jeep is screeming at top rpm. With that said, I ended up with a T-5 after some horse trading and have seriously thought about swaping it in.
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Unread 01-08-2010, 08:38 AM   #4
Happy Joe
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I can offer another perspective (having used T-176, T-177, a jeep auto, a T-18(granny low, not all T-18s are), a MT-8 (GM granny low 5 speed), a BA5-10 (pukejunk), and a T-5);

The t-176/177 are medium torque car style four speed (but is a top loader, used in pickups and jeeps) with a low gear that is too high. They do shift well, quickly and easily and stand up moderately well. The T-177 has a slightly lower first gear (but still too high).

The Jeep autos were pure junk (had them in 2 different Jeeps) giving lack luster performance on the street and very poor performance off road (replaced one hoping to get acceptable performance and got the same result).

The T-18 (I believe that most Jeep t-18s were not the granny low version; to get the granny low we transplanted Ford gears into it) was a poor street four speed (it is a moderately heavy truck transmission, afterall) to use it on the street you start out in second and call it a 3 speed. It shifted poorly (like a lage truck) at all times and was also only moderately good off road, as the unsyncromeshed first prevented downshifting without double clutching and the first gear was rarely used off road (first is too low for most trail work and second is often too high). This transmission is nearly impossible to shift quickly enough to avoid loosing momentum on hills. Note; shifting on hills should not be attempted; the consequences of a missed shift can be fatal.

The MT-8 Muncie Getrag was too long but geared reasonably well and drove well on and off road, the length severely limited the drive shaft angles (avoid this one, its a pain fabbing the stuff to make it work).

The Peugeot BA5-10, or maybe it was 10-5, (made by a French bicycle company) was a terrible idea on Jeeps part and not suitable for use anywhere (they break way to easily).

The T-5 transmission (coarse spline 6 cylinder Jeep version, do not use the finer spline 4 cylinder version it is too weak). It is a low torque rated transmission suitable for use in properly geared jeeps driven competently. It is not for drag racing or road racing in stock form. Jumping on the gas at every stop light will break it, as will the ram and slam style of off road driving. If driven competently it will stand up well behind 258s, 4.0s and short stroke (low torque) v-8s, as long as the axles are geared properly for the tire size. I do not recommend it for younger drivers.
The overdrive 5th gear gives acceptable street mileage and the first gear is adequate for street and off road use on moderate trails.

Note; for lower gearing on both the T-176/177 transmissions and T-5; 4:1 transfer case gearing is recommended to be used on more than moderate trails and obstacles. The use of a properly geared transfer case reduces the off road stress on the transmission and give all of the advantages with none of the disadvantages of a granny low transmission. The Dana 30 front and the AMC 20 rear (2 piece axle flanges) are more prone to breakage due to the extra torque multiplication if used with grippy tires.

Don't get bent out of shape these were my results yours my vary...

Enjoy!
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...a well prepped, well driven, vehicle should do well in any terrain, including the highway.

Carburetors became obsolete during the last century... do what ever it takes to get fuel injection...It makes bigger grins off road.

Last edited by Happy Joe; 01-08-2010 at 09:18 AM..
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Unread 01-08-2010, 09:47 AM   #5
cgi2099
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Thank you for all the posts, are there any kits for the t5 to make it stronger?
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Unread 01-08-2010, 12:32 PM   #6
80cj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retrofit9 View Post
I have the t-18 and it has a great unsynchronised 1st gear but...... At 55mph the Jeep is screeming at top rpm. With that said, I ended up with a T-5 after some horse trading and have seriously thought about swaping it in.
It depends a lot on your ring and pinion ratios. Except for certain Ford 4 speeds all 4 speeds have a 1:1 high gear ratio. One of the advantages of using a truck style four speed like a T-18 or SM465 is that you can run relatively low numerical axle ratios and have the crawler first gear available for off road driving.
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Unread 01-08-2010, 12:40 PM   #7
Fjguercio
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nice write up happy joe!!

I suggest you know your axle gearing first. Put a string on the rear drive shaft with tape. Mark the tire and push two revolutions forward. The string wraps to 2 tire turns is you axle ratio.

You also want to know where your TIRE SIZE is. Big tires need certain axle ratios... and axles are like $1000 each to set up if you need carriers, ring, pinion, and labor. Locker needs are the next consideration. Its big money and you only want to do it once.

With that information you can also use one of the calculators to see where you want to be for ratio. A trail rig will need different low range needs that a rock crawl.

I am happy with T18 granny, 33 tires, 3.54 changing to 3.73 and I will do trail rides and road. My 1978 CJ7 has the optional T18 granny, power brakes, power steering, tilt, BIG brakes, so nice options for back then. 2 lockers will be added with my used ring & pinion and both carries will need to be changed. I would like another gear for road, 3 spd is limited but my jeep is tricked out for 258 and runs better than 95% so I get away with it. My granny low allows me to do trails with out the granny trails and off road would be too fast and axles would need to be 4.11 or 4.56 most likely if I had 3speed road and no granny. Then the hyw speed and rpms would stink.

Might suggest when you think you have combo you like.... Find a local club member that has that combo and ride with him. YOu can spend some big money doing these changes so do it once.

Last edited by Fjguercio; 01-08-2010 at 03:19 PM..
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Unread 01-08-2010, 02:35 PM   #8
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I disagree with the comments made about the T-176/177. I think that either version would actually be the ideal choice for the OP. Few people actually need a 4-speed with a 1st gear that is below 4:1. More often than not (and especially here on JF), it is an issue of axle ratios not properly matched to tire size than an issue of transmission gearing (although Happy Joe does have his correctly matched).

Furthermore, with the OP having a T-5 currently, the swap will be less costly being that the driveshaft changes will be minimal, no adapters will be required on either side of it, the trans tunnel can be replaced with another factory piece and boot, and the existing trans crossmember can be retained.

He only has a 258. The T-176/177 series is considerably stronger than a T-5, known to handle strong 360 or even 401 power, and push around vehicles that were thousands of pounds heavier with GVWR's beyond the weight of two CJ's. I think T-18 or SM trans would be overkill - especially without more input on intended usage.

CGI - Yes, there are a few things you can do to improve the T-5. This is just one particular vendor I grabbed at random, but its at least a starting point for reading:

Jeep T5 5 Speed Transmission Page
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Unread 01-08-2010, 03:17 PM   #9
Fjguercio
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I missed something.... what was there to disagree about the 176/177.
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Unread 01-08-2010, 03:37 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fjguercio View Post
I missed something.... what was there to disagree about the 176/177.
The 1st gear ratios being too high was what I was referring to, specifically.
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Unread 01-04-2011, 06:15 PM   #11
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need some help on a tranny swap, have a 83 cj8, have a 302 in it with the original t5. the t5 has just died and i have read that the t18 will swap. question is do i get a t18 2wd or 4wd. i want to avoid having to buy the advance adapter for $500 for the dana 300. if i get the 4wd t18 does this make it possible to bolt the dana 300 directly to the t18. any info would be greatly appreciated.
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Unread 01-04-2011, 09:51 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daugherty1993 View Post
need some help on a tranny swap, have a 83 cj8, have a 302 in it with the original t5. the t5 has just died and i have read that the t18 will swap. question is do i get a t18 2wd or 4wd. i want to avoid having to buy the advance adapter for $500 for the dana 300. if i get the 4wd t18 does this make it possible to bolt the dana 300 directly to the t18. any info would be greatly appreciated.
There's no way around the compatibility problem. you'll spend money either way - converting the 2wd unit or buying the 4wd unit and adapter. A T-176 or T-177 would be fine behind a 302 and is from the D300 years, so it has the correct output spline count and bolt pattern for the D300 to bolt up to.
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Unread 01-04-2011, 10:38 PM   #13
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as Happy Joe suggested and I can attest to, the T-5 with the 4:1 low gear set in the Dana 300 gives me the best of all worlds. My jeep is my DD and gets me to and from the trail with no issues. The T-5 is a pleasure to drive, especially with the 5th gear. Once I put the 4:1 low gear set in the Dana 300 my performance on the trails increased dramatically. I have 32" tires with 3.73 gearing. and that is my
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Unread 01-05-2011, 11:17 AM   #14
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Yup!
The T-17x series of transmission is good but the lowest first gear ratio available is slightly lower than 3.8 to 1 and the T-176 has closer to 3.7 to 1 (often mistakenly referred to as 4:1 in magazines and on the internet) this is fine on the street and works pretty well off road especially with properly geared axles. With the coming hike in fuel prices the T-176's lack of an overdrive is gonna hurt (in the wallet).
While you wouldn't think that the roughly 0.2 to 1 difference in first gear between the T-177/8 and the T5 (4.03 first) is significant, you can feel the difference off road in compound low and the overdrive is a significant advantage on road.
I changed gears from a T-177 (might have been a 178) into a 176 to get the lowest 3.8+ gearing (from the approximately 3.73-or maybe 3.75 stock 176 gears) with little perceivable difference.
Ford used an overdrive version of the 176 (4 forward gears with 4th being overdrive) in some trucks but the combination of high first and overdrive forth has primarily street application to my way of thinking.

Don't get me wrong I like the T-17x series (still have one in the garage) but prefer the T-5.
If I had a V-8 I would likely be running a NV-35xx series with a 4:1 low range transfer case to get a heavier duty 5 speed. (Proper axle gearing is a given, 4:1 first is near optimum and 4:1 in the transfercase is the Icing on the cake, IMO).

Enjoy!
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Carburetors became obsolete during the last century... do what ever it takes to get fuel injection...It makes bigger grins off road.
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Unread 01-05-2011, 01:00 PM   #15
foggybottombob
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Note that there are two versions of T5 for Jeeps. The most common one has a 0.86 ratio 5th and a less common one has a 0.76 ratio 5th.

I have the 0.76 5th gear in my T5 and a 4:1 in my Dana 300. These have worked well for me for a couple of years. I've had the T5 about 5 years and the 4:1 about 2 years.
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