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Unread 05-14-2010, 11:26 AM   #16
Pacfanweb
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BTW, if you use a free service like Imageshack, it will let you resize your pics when you upload them, to whatever size you like....even suggests a size for message boards.

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Unread 05-14-2010, 12:58 PM   #17
texasdave
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Just my two cents. Some metals need "etched" with a commercial product before painting. The best cleaner is Metyl Ethel Ketone (MEK) which I have no idea wheter it is even made today. It will take the red right out of a brick. I'm seriously thinking about soda blasting instead of sand. I know some body men tell me it does away with the pitting caused by sand.
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Unread 05-14-2010, 02:14 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skerr View Post
He told me that Acetone is a no-no, that it leaves an oil residue.
Not sure I agree with him on this one. Something like mineral spirits will leave a residue but stuff like Acetone or MEK should not. I use MEK all the time, but use chem gloves and mask. Stuff is nasty.
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Unread 05-14-2010, 02:20 PM   #19
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There are also free programs available (Irfanview, Picassa, etc) that usually include a one click resize option or at the least an option to resize your pictures into a more forum friendly size

I spent several days with a grinder with a wire brush, some sand paper, an actual grinder, paint scrapers and so on with my frame getting it cleaned up. I blasted it off and out with an air compressor then I painted it with a rust convertor. Getting ready to do the top coat soon if this cursed weather decides to play nice!
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Unread 05-14-2010, 06:56 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BULLITTBUilder View Post
Purple power is meant as an industrial degreaser, it is not intended as a surface treatment preparatory agent. It's intended characteristic is to penetrate stains and grease and then form a layer between it and the surface. With a wax and grease remover there is no residue of any sort left on the surface. Once that has flashed off, you are left with a clean surface ready for treatment. There is no one company that makes that product, it's not proprietary. I source all my auto body supplies from a jobber (Albert Kemperle). I'm not sure where about in florida you live but they have one in Jacksonville. Or ask any jobber for a Wax and Grease Remover, Prep Sol, or Final Kleen should work also. Additionally the rust converter may have had some affect on the adherence as well. The big thing behind any surface treatment process is the compatibility between the products. The most important thing is to read the instructions and MSDS sheets on ALL products you use in any given surface treatment process. Some products may say not to use with a rust converter, or to only use with "this" primer or "that" surfacer. It isn't just to promote their brand, it has to do with the inorganic chemicals used to be solvent of the surface they are covering. You said the other day that there is as much to know about "paint" as there is to know about Jeeps. Refer to paint as surface treatment; and YES all surface treatments are a highly technical field and it's proper application is a skilled trade. I'm not saying you need to become a damn scientist to understand this stuff but it never hurts to ask a million and one questions if you are unsure. Better that than spend lots of money and repeat the same mistakes. I hope this helps clarify things. Here is the Upol link and the Deltron line of PPG for initial surface treatment (aka primers).

Upol Raptor
U-POL ::

PPG Deltron Line
Deltron® - Refinish
Bullitt- Thanks so much. This is very good info, and I needed it. Thanks for the links. I have intentions of using UPOL on both the 5 and the 7, but I'm not there yet. The primers are some confusing yet... I can see I have some reading to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacfanweb View Post
You might want to rethink listening to your neighbor:

"nothing sticks to silicone".....

Silica and Silicone aren't the same thing. Silica is a naturally-occurring substance, most commonly in sand. Silicone is man-made.

Yes, pretty much nothing will stick to silicone, but he's completely wrong about that having anything to do with sandblasting.

What I believe you should have done to get the liner to stick is, sand whatever was under it.
It has to have something to grab....most any paint does. Anytime you're painting any automotive finish, you always need to at least scuff up the surface you're painting over.
Doesn't matter if you sprayed it yesterday....it needs to be scuffed before you put anything over it.

Sandblasting does just that.....it's great for painting over. Clean it, sure, but that's it.....just about anything will stick to a freshly-blasted surface.

From my reading here, and I admittedly skimmed a bit, you applied the liner right over the paint with no other prep but cleaning it? I wouldn't think that would hold.....it at least needed to be wire brushed or Scotch-Brite-ed.

He's also wrong about Acetone.....most paints have Acetone IN them....so I doubt there's any oily residue in it.
It is, however, a bit on the strong side for wiping something down before paint, unless you are wanting to soften the surface you are painting over.

Regardless, sanding/scuffing a painted surface is always better than using a chemical to soften it before you paint....much more chance of the top coat adhering that way.
The Acetone did, indeed, soften the primer before I painted the liner material over it. It made me think that I would get a great bond... I have Scotch-Brite on the shelf... collecting dust! Now I know better. Thanks for your input.

In your opinions, do you think it necessary to remove everything back to the bare frame again?
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Unread 05-15-2010, 06:20 AM   #21
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One note Methyl Ethyl Ketone?? I would stay as far away from that **** as possible. Every chemical we are talking about is deadly to people. A "mask" will not cut it. You need a chemical respirator as least. Methyl Ethyl Ketone is a carcinogen known for causing among other things brain cancer. You have to be careful with this ****. Don't get it on your skin, don't breathe it in and don't get it in your eyes.
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Unread 05-15-2010, 06:33 AM   #22
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A good friend of mine is a Chemical Engineer and has given me the same warnings about MEK. I do use Acetone for degreasing and occasionally paint prep but not on body panels or primer which it removes.

For bare metal prep Purple Power is a great *degreaser* but not a last step prior to paint.

Wax and Grease remover is preferred before paint or primer.
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Unread 05-16-2010, 12:13 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDragga View Post
... I spent several days with a grinder with a wire brush, some sand paper, an actual grinder, paint scrapers and so on with my frame getting it cleaned up. I blasted it off and out with an air compressor then I painted it with a rust convertor. Getting ready to do the top coat soon if this cursed weather decides to play nice!
I know how that feels... can't get done soon enough! Be sure and read the topcoat instructions on the rust converter. Cure times differ with different paints. Good luck with it. Pay attention to the input from these guys. Maybe it will save you some extra work.

Thanks, Guys, for all your input. I, personally, always thought Acetone was good for most everything. I will try to find some cleaning agent locally... maybe Napa? Most of the bedliner material is holding tight to the frame. My gut tells me it's okay. I have "blown" off everything that was loose. Do you think I need to take the entire frame back to bare metal?
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Unread 05-16-2010, 06:06 AM   #24
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Skerr all things being equal in your prep work. I wouldn't think that some of your work magically had better bonding than other areas. So I would be suspect and better to catch it now than a year from now when your coatings fail. As Cale Yarrbourgh once said we didn't have time to do it right the first time so we had to do it a second time.

Find your self a paint jobber in your area and explain what you are trying to do. They will point you in the right direction since they do this professionally and will tell you what works and what dose not.

Stay way from NAPA paints they are bottom of the barrel Martin Seymor paints and they typically don't move enough product to ensure you get a recent batch. Also stay away from Eastwood the only quality is in their pricing the rest is re-branded junk.

Just look at this as a practice run.
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Unread 05-16-2010, 06:09 AM   #25
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Well MEK is great for cleaning oily films and "gunk" off of metal surfaces. Acetone is great for cleaning MEK off of metal and destroying paint finishes and many plastics. Both of these chemicals leave a residue on metal that needs to be removed before painting. Generally, alcohol products methanol, ethanol, IPA can be used to remove MEK and acetone films. The alcohols take longer to dry, but leave no film.

The best approach is to follow the manufacturer's recommendation often available on the web. Different paint products often have different chemical formulations which can really cause major problems with adhesion. I also agree that scuffing a surface is generally recommended before cleaning with the recommended solvent.

I bet taking that frame down to metal again will let you sleep better at night after all this work.
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Unread 05-16-2010, 10:22 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmakra View Post
Skerr all things being equal in your prep work. I wouldn't think that some of your work magically had better bonding than other areas. So I would be suspect and better to catch it now than a year from now when your coatings fail. As Cale Yarrbourgh once said we didn't have time to do it right the first time so we had to do it a second time.

Find your self a paint jobber in your area and explain what you are trying to do. They will point you in the right direction since they do this professionally and will tell you what works and what dose not.

Stay way from NAPA paints they are bottom of the barrel Martin Seymor paints and they typically don't move enough product to ensure you get a recent batch. Also stay away from Eastwood the only quality is in their pricing the rest is re-branded junk.

Just look at this as a practice run.
Quote:
Originally Posted by crakmonckey View Post
Well MEK is great for cleaning oily films and "gunk" off of metal surfaces. Acetone is great for cleaning MEK off of metal and destroying paint finishes and many plastics. Both of these chemicals leave a residue on metal that needs to be removed before painting. Generally, alcohol products methanol, ethanol, IPA can be used to remove MEK and acetone films. The alcohols take longer to dry, but leave no film.

The best approach is to follow the manufacturer's recommendation often available on the web. Different paint products often have different chemical formulations which can really cause major problems with adhesion. I also agree that scuffing a surface is generally recommended before cleaning with the recommended solvent.

I bet taking that frame down to metal again will let you sleep better at night after all this work.
How do you spell a whiny sound?? Aaaaarrrrrgggghhhhhhhh.....!
Sleep would be good. Having your son proud of his rig would be good. Knowing you did a good job is always good. I'm so good at everything because I do everything twice!!! Thanks, Guys, for your input. Especially for the NAPA paint tip. I actually sprayed Martin Seynour paint before, cleaning up a potato harvester.
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Unread 05-21-2010, 10:30 AM   #27
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Well... you learn as you go! I started wire-wheeling the frame to remove the loose material. I can see every little detail where I cheated. All the things that I didn't do contribute to the mess that I have, and to the fact that I am now redoing all the previous work. WHAT A WASTE OF TIME, ENERGY, AND EXPENSE! So... for all you guys that are just starting out. BE SURE to prep your work correctly. DON'T get in a hurry. DON'T think that "this is good enough". SPEND the money for the "Good Stuff". I should be reassembling right now, but I am back at the starting point!

Need help... what is the best way to remove the old undercoating residue. The wire wheel just smears it around.
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Unread 05-22-2010, 01:52 PM   #28
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After learning more about proper tools and applications in this thread- http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/wi...-help-1036547/ I got some MORE tools and really went to work. Many thanks to you guys that provided help and insight.

I CAN'T STRESS ENOUGH THE IMPORTANCE OF PREP WORK... AS YOU ARE ABOUT TO SEE! DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME!!!!!!!! God... I tell my KIDS that all the time.

Following are some pics that I took this afternoon. I never intended to take the bedliner material off of the entire frame. I REALLY believed that there were only some SPOTS where I had contaminated the frame, and thus the poor adhesion. Once I started removal of those areas, however, it just kept growing. I found that underneath the bedliner, over the whole frame, was new rust forming. It became apparent that we had to go back to bare metal. I was afraid that a 36 grit flapdisc would remove too much material (Thanks, 243- YOU WERE RIGHT AS RAIN!). I was wrong. So, in the end, I got out my 6" grinder and put a 24 grit disc on it. That works the best for removing the old bedliner material and the primer under that. Then, I go behind that with the 36 grit flapdisc to remove the rust underneath. This is pretty quick and my son is helping... I mean, it is HIS Jeep!

So the pics are
(#1) My 6" with the 24 grit disc- works quickest with the bedliner and primer.
(#2) The rust under the bedliner coating (I am removing this with the 36 flapdisc).
(#3) And what we are achieving.

Keep in mind that I THOUGHT I was doing a GOOD JOB originally. I NEVER took any intentional shortcuts. Somewhere, things went WAY wrong.
100_0497.jpg   100_0489.jpg   100_0498.jpg  
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"Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say 'what should be the reward of such sacrifices?' ... If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!" —Samuel Adams

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Scott's Build Thread
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/sc...5-cj7-1147913/
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http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f11/f...-okee-1445206/

Last edited by Skerr; 05-22-2010 at 07:20 PM.. Reason: adding pictures
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Unread 05-22-2010, 08:38 PM   #29
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Another tool that works well for corners, cracks, etc, is the air chisel. I asked my neighbor to come over and give me his .02 worth, and he pointed out the chisel.
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"Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say 'what should be the reward of such sacrifices?' ... If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!" —Samuel Adams

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Unread 05-22-2010, 08:47 PM   #30
chet44
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If you have a compressor, a needle scaler works great for the nooks and crannies too. I learned the same way you did on my first experience with bedliner-poor prep. And mine was peeling off in strips as well.
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