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Unread 05-11-2009, 08:21 AM   #1
Skerr
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Bedliner for frame paint

I am finishing up the frame on my 79 CJ5. Thought I'd share my experience. My pics are too large to post up... don't know how to compress them!

I stripped the frame down as far as I wanted to go. Then I scraped off the original undercoating with a stiff putty knife. Then I sandblasted it. That was miserable! I rank guys that sandblast up there with guys that do concrete work... toughest there is!

After sandblasting I coated the frame with a rust converter from Gemplers. This material also seals the metal.

Next was a coat of gray Dupli-Color auto primer. Should have stopped there!

After the primer I bought a quart of Dupli-Color truck bed coating, and I applied it by gun. Went on nice but didn't do the whole frame. I liked it so well I bought a gallon. I was ready to coat everything in my shop with this stuff! Important*- the gallon can has different instructions than the quart, which I didn't read! The gallon can is much thicker than the quart, and it states that your spray gun should have a 1/4" nozzle. Mine doesn't. Needless to say, I finished the frame with the gallon material and my spray gun. The next day I was rubbing the beautiful frame, like it was my Mistress, and the newly applied material pretty much wiped off in my hand! That was when I discovered the different application instructions! So I wiped the whole frame down with Acetone, let it dry, and reapplied by brush. After 2 days of drying it has achieved a smooth, hard finish. Yay! However, it is much glossier than I wanted.

Things I didn't do:
I didn't first wipe down the surface with a solvent (as described on the can) since I was applying to a new coat of primer. I thought it would stick.

I used a gun with too small a nozzle. My gun is a standard spray gun that I bought at Lowe's (Kobalt brand). It worked great with the primer. I noticed, while spraying the bedliner, that it was very fine, almost like a spider web. Maybe it was actually "drying" before it hit the surface?? Go with the brush and do the prep.

Good luck.

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Unread 05-11-2009, 08:38 AM   #2
chet44
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I did my boat trailer with Dupli-color, with a undercoat of rustoleum primer. I should have forgot the primer- the bedliner would peel off in long strips. I ended up stripping the whole trailer of bedliner and primer, scuffing up the whole trailer, and just spraying bedliner. The "paint guy" at my local NAPA says that bedliner sticks best on bare, scuffed metal.
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Unread 05-11-2009, 09:31 AM   #3
jsc7002
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IMO that stuff just plain sucks, Herculiner is a great product to do your self that is cheap and easy and really lasts
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Unread 05-11-2009, 12:42 PM   #4
Skerr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsc7002 View Post
IMO that stuff just plain sucks, Herculiner is a great product to do your self that is cheap and easy and really lasts
I may be joining your opinion club! We'll see how it lasts.
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Unread 05-11-2009, 01:29 PM   #5
myzoo
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this weekend i did the whole inside of my jeep with herculiner. I like the way it turned out but we will see how long it last i put on 3 layers, and clear coat on top of it.
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Unread 05-11-2009, 02:40 PM   #6
jsc7002
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I may be joining your opinion club! We'll see how it lasts.
well I hope it works for you. I applied a primer first and that bedliner just peeled right off and left the primer so I just sprayed some Rustoelum over it, but I did the Herculiner on the belt line down of my KJ.
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Unread 05-11-2009, 04:18 PM   #7
Skerr
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Where do you get Herculiner? Every store around here carries the same Dupli-Color: NAPA, Autozone, Discount. I am preparing to do the tub. It is glass. I've seen plenty of pics on the forum to know that I like it, just don't know where to get it.

Thanks
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Unread 05-11-2009, 05:11 PM   #8
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I found it on the Ebay. I think it is best to get the whole kit.
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Unread 05-12-2009, 01:15 AM   #9
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I bought mine from ebay as well and it was cheaper than most of the stores Ive seen it in, Ive seen a couple Wal-Marts carry it.
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Unread 05-12-2009, 02:33 AM   #10
Skerr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happydog View Post
I found it on the Ebay. I think it is best to get the whole kit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsc7002 View Post
I bought mine from ebay as well and it was cheaper than most of the stores Ive seen it in, Ive seen a couple Wal-Marts carry it.
Good to know... thanks, Guys
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Unread 05-13-2010, 10:16 PM   #11
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I thought I would ressurect this post to give an update of the status of my frame since Dupli-Color spray on bed liner, just in case anyone is contemplating this material. As mentioned earlier, I sandblasted my frame prior to painting/coating. This frame has been sitting in my shop since this original post. It has been kept dry and completely sheltered from weather. My 16 year old son and I are doing this project together (I gave him the Jeep) and we are installing a spring lift. After spray painting the axles with black implement paint I was going to paint the frame (I had extra paint). We washed the frame with Purple Power (a great cleaner) since it had gathered a lot of dust. We used a spray bottle to apply the PP, then a pressure washer to get it off. Great flakes of the Dupli-Color bedliner came off with the water. That was a big disappointment, but I'm glad it happened now. My neighbor, who truly knows everything, asked about my prep process. I told him I sandblasted, washed, sprayed with auto primer, wiped with Acetone, and applied bedliner, all with the proper amount of time between events. He told me that Acetone is a no-no, that it leaves an oil residue. He told me to wipe down with paint thinner in the future. It will air dry and leave no residue. He also pointed out that sandblasting drives silica into the metal pores of the frame, and that nothing sticks to silicone. Be extra careful to wash well after sandblasting. Finally, he said that PP is a good cleaner but it leaves the purple color as a residue, and that paint doesn't stick to that! Use the paint thinner after PP. I can't really say that the Dupli-Color bedliner material is not a good material, since it appears I didn't do a good prep job, although I sure as heck thought I did! But since the primer was removed with the bedliner, and rust was found in those areas, it had to be the prep. Most of the frame seems tight.
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Unread 05-14-2010, 07:40 AM   #12
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Paint thinner/ acrylic lacquer thinner is also a no no. Thinners i.e. reducers serve as a solvent for all of those products. Given that those are 2 part catalyzed products. My recommendation is to wipe off the surface (or any surface you ever intend to lay paint/primer, etc on) with a professional Wax & Crease Remover. Do this after you treat the surface in any way. WHat I mean is if you primed and are about to base, wipe it. If you just tacked a surface, wipe it. Tack cloths use bee's wax and wax will screw up your surface in terms of adherence. THis is especially true when painting; the paint will fisheye, so wipe the surface with wax and grease remover. As as dupli color, they are another imitation bedliner like the herculiner. The best bang for the buck product that will give you professional results (and is used by the pro's) is the Upol Raptor Kit. The stuff looks great, is durable and set up hard as a rock.
Back to the surface treatment you should not apply a bedliner product onto direct contact with bare metal. Here's why. Bedliner application is typically found being applied to an OEM surface (scuffed up pickup truck beds) so in those cases the bare metal has already been treated. Sprayed on finishes like bedliner, undercoating etc. are not impervious to moisture getting underneath them. On an enlarged scale it may look like tiny holes where there is no bedliner. It may never be perfect so why tempt fate? It is a much easier solution to just use a good durable primer. Reason to for why bare metal application won't work is because bedliners do not have a self etching characteristic. In other words they will not bond to bare metal because chemically they can't. It may "stick" to everything when you spray it but the bond is merely superficial, it won't last under use and abuse. Any self etching primer will work but for the real insurance for no rust is a corrosion resistant primer (PPG NCP271) After the primer then apply the bedliner
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Unread 05-14-2010, 09:24 AM   #13
Skerr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BULLITTBUilder View Post
Paint thinner/ acrylic lacquer thinner is also a no no. Thinners i.e. reducers serve as a solvent for all of those products. Given that those are 2 part catalyzed products. My recommendation is to wipe off the surface (or any surface you ever intend to lay paint/primer, etc on) with a professional Wax & Grease Remover. Do this after you treat the surface in any way. WHat I mean is if you primed and are about to base, wipe it. If you just tacked a surface, wipe it. Tack cloths use bee's wax and wax will screw up your surface in terms of adherence. THis is especially true when painting; the paint will fisheye, so wipe the surface with wax and grease remover. As as dupli color, they are another imitation bedliner like the herculiner. The best bang for the buck product that will give you professional results (and is used by the pro's) is the Upol Raptor Kit. The stuff looks great, is durable and set up hard as a rock.
Back to the surface treatment you should not apply a bedliner product onto direct contact with bare metal. Here's why. Bedliner application is typically found being applied to an OEM surface (scuffed up pickup truck beds) so in those cases the bare metal has already been treated. Sprayed on finishes like bedliner, undercoating etc. are not impervious to moisture getting underneath them. On an enlarged scale it may look like tiny holes where there is no bedliner. It may never be perfect so why tempt fate? It is a much easier solution to just use a good durable primer. Reason to for why bare metal application won't work is because bedliners do not have a self etching characteristic. In other words they will not bond to bare metal because chemically they can't. It may "stick" to everything when you spray it but the bond is merely superficial, it won't last under use and abuse. Any self etching primer will work but for the real insurance for no rust is a corrosion resistant primer (PPG NCP271) After the primer then apply the bedliner
Give me some examples, please... I thought Purple Power WAS a pro degreaser!

I used Dupli-Color automotive gray primer on the frame before applying the bedliner material. It went on great, looked great. The primer came off along with the bedliner. Isn't that an indicator that there was some kind of residue on the frame?

Thinking back (if I can remember that far) here are the steps...
Sandblast, blew it off with compressor, coated with rust converter and cured 24 hours, wiped with Acetone, sprayed with primer, sat overnight, wiped with Acetone, coated with bedliner. That's very close if not exact... not sure I wiped with Acetone between rust converter and primer. Thanks for the input... want to get it right this time.
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Unread 05-14-2010, 09:56 AM   #14
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Purple power is meant as an industrial degreaser, it is not intended as a surface treatment preparatory agent. It's intended characteristic is to penetrate stains and grease and then form a layer between it and the surface. With a wax and grease remover there is no residue of any sort left on the surface. Once that has flashed off, you are left with a clean surface ready for treatment. There is no one company that makes that product, it's not proprietary. I source all my auto body supplies from a jobber (Albert Kemperle). I'm not sure where about in florida you live but they have one in Jacksonville. Or ask any jobber for a Wax and Grease Remover, Prep Sol, or Final Kleen should work also. Additionally the rust converter may have had some affect on the adherence as well. The big thing behind any surface treatment process is the compatibility between the products. The most important thing is to read the instructions and MSDS sheets on ALL products you use in any given surface treatment process. Some products may say not to use with a rust converter, or to only use with "this" primer or "that" surfacer. It isn't just to promote their brand, it has to do with the inorganic chemicals used to be solvent of the surface they are covering. You said the other day that there is as much to know about "paint" as there is to know about Jeeps. Refer to paint as surface treatment; and YES all surface treatments are a highly technical field and it's proper application is a skilled trade. I'm not saying you need to become a damn scientist to understand this stuff but it never hurts to ask a million and one questions if you are unsure. Better that than spend lots of money and repeat the same mistakes. I hope this helps clarify things. Here is the Upol link and the Deltron line of PPG for initial surface treatment (aka primers).

Upol Raptor
http://www.u-pol.com/product-cat/83/...-bed-liner.htm

PPG Deltron Line
Deltron® - Refinish
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Unread 05-14-2010, 11:25 AM   #15
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You might want to rethink listening to your neighbor:

"nothing sticks to silicone".....

Silica and Silicone aren't the same thing. Silica is a naturally-occurring substance, most commonly in sand. Silicone is man-made.

Yes, pretty much nothing will stick to silicone, but he's completely wrong about that having anything to do with sandblasting.

What I believe you should have done to get the liner to stick is, sand whatever was under it.
It has to have something to grab....most any paint does. Anytime you're painting any automotive finish, you always need to at least scuff up the surface you're painting over.
Doesn't matter if you sprayed it yesterday....it needs to be scuffed before you put anything over it.

Sandblasting does just that.....it's great for painting over. Clean it, sure, but that's it.....just about anything will stick to a freshly-blasted surface.

From my reading here, and I admittedly skimmed a bit, you applied the liner right over the paint with no other prep but cleaning it? I wouldn't think that would hold.....it at least needed to be wire brushed or Scotch-Brite-ed.

He's also wrong about Acetone.....most paints have Acetone IN them....so I doubt there's any oily residue in it.
It is, however, a bit on the strong side for wiping something down before paint, unless you are wanting to soften the surface you are painting over.

Regardless, sanding/scuffing a painted surface is always better than using a chemical to soften it before you paint....much more chance of the top coat adhering that way.
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