Bds lift issues on 1979 cj7 - Page 2 - JeepForum.com

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post #16 of 37 Old 10-13-2011, 10:20 AM
gpower77
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Not to hi-jack the thread, buuuuutt send me a 2" lift for my 78 CJ and ill our it on and try it all out for ya! Any discounts out there? Heard BDS was the best lift and smoothest ride, I need smooth!

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post #17 of 37 Old 10-13-2011, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by gpower77 View Post
Not to hi-jack the thread, buuuuutt send me a 2" lift for my 78 CJ and ill our it on and try it all out for ya! Any discounts out there? Heard BDS was the best lift and smoothest ride, I need smooth!

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post #18 of 37 Old 10-13-2011, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by BDS-Tech View Post
lifting the vehicle will absolutely affect both the drag link length and the toe- You have changed the relative distance between the pitman arm and the steering knuckle, which effects both toe, and drag link length- and if you change one, the other changes.
Wrong. You're obviously not familiar with CJ steering linkage. The drag link distance does change. It is only connected between the pitman arm and the passenger knuckle. The tie-rod on a CJ goes from knuckle to knuckle, not from drag link to knuckle and the distance between knuckles remains fixed regardless of what length the drag link is at. It's not like TJ linkage, which you would be absolutely correct in making this statement.

Look at the differences. CJ is two separate rods (drag link assembly is #21 and tie rod is #20)not connected at all to each other. TJ has the tie-rod and drag link connected (inverted Y). Look at the CJ Dana 30 picture and the two holes on the passenger knuckle. Drag link goes in one hole, tie-rod in the other.
CJ:




TJ drag link/tie-rod assembly:


Quote:
A CJ should have an adjusting sleeve- why would you disconnect the drag link to turn it?
You're not following the procedure I'm listing. The idea with it disconnected is to center the tires (point them straight ahead), center the steering box, and then by default adjusting the drag link to fit between the two it is therefore at the correct length. Sure you could leave it connected. There's more than one way to kill this cat but I personally find it easier to adjust the drag link with it disconnected and that's why I recommended this method.

Quote:
And, I really, really, really promise that changing the drag link angle will affect toe- when you move the drag link, the knuckle that it is attached to will move in or out, depending on which way you turn it. How can you move the knuckle without affecting toe?
And I really promise you that it won't. If you shorten the drag link and pull the passenger knuckle in, the drivers side knuckle is pointed outward, keeping toe the same. If the passenger side moves inward, the drives side moves outward and vise versa. Toe only changes if the distance between knuckles changes. The drag link doesn't change this distance. This is only accomplished by changing the length of the tie-rod. Again, reference the above diagram.

Quote:
Even if you remove the drag link, shorten/lengthen it and put it back, the relative distance between the steering knuckle and the pitman arm will have changed, and when that changes toe changes as well.
The lift kit has already changed the distance and that's why the steering box and steering wheel aren't centered. The idea is to center them and again, toe remains fixed unless you adjust the tie-rod.
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post #19 of 37 Old 10-13-2011, 11:38 AM
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Um okay. If you can't see that it doesn't matter a fig how they connect to the axle, and that changing one affects both of them, that's fine. OP, get an alignment and check your steering stops.
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post #20 of 37 Old 10-13-2011, 12:07 PM
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Wow. It absolutely does matter.

Lets try this again. If you can't get it this time I'm at a loss because it's PAINFULLY simple.

Referring to the below picture. Pretend the red line is straight and represents the tie rod. The empty hole in front of the tie rod on the passenger knuckle is where the drag link is attached. Lets say the pitman arm doesn't move and the drag link is shortened. A shorter drag link pulls the passenger knuckle inward, lets say by 1/2" in this example. Now does the drivers side knuckle move inward also, or does it get pushed outward by the tie-rod? It gets pushed outward by the exact same 1/2" that the passenger side came in. The distance between the knuckles is fixed and toe remains unchanged.

The only way that toe changes is if the red line gets longer or shorter. The drag link does not affect the length of the red line. Adjusting the drag link does NOT change the length of the red line. It's physically impossible.

That's as simple as it gets.



Edit: Another way to look at it.

Point A to point B is the draglink. This is a solid piece of steel with an adjuster at one end. Point A is the pitman arm and B is the passenger knuckle.

Point B to point C is the tie-rod. This is another solid piece of steel with an adjuster at one end. Point C is the drivers side knuckle.



Changing the length of the A to B rod does not change the lenght of the B to C rod. If point B moves to the right as a result of A-B getting shorter, then point C also moves to the right. If point B moves to the left as a result of A-B getting longer, then point C also moves to the left by the same. The distance between B and C remains constant.
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post #21 of 37 Old 10-13-2011, 09:33 PM Thread Starter
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I made the adjustments that were suggested. It helped some but my tire still rubs on leaf spring. My steering is now even left to right. Thinking a different steering box might be in there with a longer turn radius. Idk. How do you post pics using iPhone?
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post #22 of 37 Old 10-14-2011, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Freewheeling View Post
I made the adjustments that were suggested. It helped some but my tire still rubs on leaf spring. My steering is now even left to right. Thinking a different steering box might be in there with a longer turn radius. Idk. How do you post pics using iPhone?
The tire rubbing the spring is simply a matter of having taller tires on narrow track axles. They are going to rub at full turn. A new steering box isn't going to make a difference.
You have a few choices.
1. Adjust your steering stops to keep it from turning as far and rubbing the spring.Your stops may either be missing, or adjusted too far in to begin with.It's as simple as adjusting them out little by little with a 9/16 wrench, and turning the wheels to try it, until the tire no longer contacts the spring.

2.Wheel spacers. I use 1.5" spacers with my 35" tires on narrow track axles. Moving the tires out away from the springs will allow them to turn farther without rubbing. Will allow a tighter turning radius than above.

3. Buy new wheels with less backspacing. Does the same thing as the spacers above.

4. A choice you don't want to do. Smaller tires.
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post #23 of 37 Old 10-14-2011, 05:45 PM
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I had this same problem with my 79 CJ7. I was new to jeeps and did not know that there was narrow and wide axles. My buddy had an 82 CJ7 wide with wide track and 33" tires. He gave me his 33's once he got 35's. I used the 33's and they rubbed on my leaf springs but they didn't rub on my friends leaf springs. We couldn't figure it out till we measured the lengths of our axles and found out my 79 had narrow axles.

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post #24 of 37 Old 10-14-2011, 06:27 PM
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Csp you are spot on....toe does not change..caster ..because of different shackle lengths or reverse shackled may have to be dealt with.. narrow track good chance you are going to have tire rub..
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post #25 of 37 Old 10-15-2011, 05:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BDS-Tech View Post
I did not say it was the case. I said it was unlikely.

This drag link adjustment you are talking about would generally be part of an alignment. The steering box itself physically cannot be off center unless the frame is bent- the pitman arm and steering wheel can be off center, requiring a drag link adjustment- which also means that the toe would need to be adjusted. IE- An Alignment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDS-Tech View Post
lifting the vehicle will absolutely affect both the drag link length and the toe- You have changed the relative distance between the pitman arm and the steering knuckle, which effects both toe, and drag link length- and if you change one, the other changes.

A CJ should have an adjusting sleeve- why would you disconnect the drag link to turn it? Turning the sleeve will allow you to center the pitman arm and the steering wheel and correct the drag link length. And, I really, really, really promise that changing the drag link angle will affect toe- when you move the drag link, the knuckle that it is attached to will move in or out, depending on which way you turn it. How can you move the knuckle without affecting toe?

Even if you remove the drag link, shorten/lengthen it and put it back, the relative distance between the steering knuckle and the pitman arm will have changed, and when that changes toe changes as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDS-Tech View Post
Um okay. If you can't see that it doesn't matter a fig how they connect to the axle, and that changing one affects both of them, that's fine. OP, get an alignment and check your steering stops.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSP View Post
Toe doesn't change on a CJ with a suspension lift. The tie-rod is not touched when you swap springs out.

A CJ has a separate drag link and tie-rod. Each has their own holes on the passenger knuckle.
Wow, I'm really disappointed in this Vendor rep now.

CPS, you are right on the money. Toe in will not change with a lift!

Actually I don't know if I'm more disappointed in the rep or the TJ steering system.

The only thing not mentioned it the bump steer is increased because the two links are not parallel anymore.

Also if he installs a dropped pitman arm, the arms are usually shorter which reduces the amount the wheel turns and won't rum. But it will reduce his turning radius which is a shame.
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post #26 of 37 Old 10-15-2011, 07:25 AM
lucdog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Strenk

Wow, I'm really disappointed in this Vendor rep now.

CPS, you are right on the money. Toe in will not change with a lift!

Actually I don't know if I'm more disappointed in the rep or the TJ steering system.

The only thing not mentioned it the bump steer is increased because the two links are not parallel anymore.

Also if he installs a dropped pitman arm, the arms are usually shorter which reduces the amount the wheel turns and won't rum. But it will reduce his turning radius which is a shame.
^

This

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post #27 of 37 Old 10-15-2011, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Strenk View Post
The only thing not mentioned it the bump steer is increased because the two links are not parallel anymore.

Also if he installs a dropped pitman arm, the arms are usually shorter which reduces the amount the wheel turns and won't rum. But it will reduce his turning radius which is a shame.
It's another reason why one should do the "Tie Rod Flip" when a lift kit is installed. Just relocating the the Drag Link mount above the passenger Steering Knuckle will cure bump steer and won't effect the turning radius and you are still using the factory Pitman Arm.




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post #28 of 37 Old 10-15-2011, 08:42 AM
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well if the lift springs rotate the axle any it will change the toe and caster, longer shackles will change it as well.

86 cj7 496 powered 465/205 ton axles 38.5 boggers

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/my...oject-1019388/
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post #29 of 37 Old 10-15-2011, 09:00 AM
lucdog
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No it won't change the toe, just the pinion angle, and caster,

1957 WILLYS pickup,
1973 J 4000,
1978 CJ7 DD.
1979 CJ7 360, TH400/Quadratrac.
1979 J20
1980 CJ5 trail Jeep.
1983 CJ7
1989 YJ the CJ to YJ.
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post #30 of 37 Old 10-15-2011, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucdog
No it won't change the toe, just the pinion angle, and caster,
It will change the toe if the axle is rotated it may not be extreme but it will. If you rotate the pinion up what do you think is going to happen to your toe in? I have had lifted trucks all my life i know it will change but im not here to fight about it.

86 cj7 496 powered 465/205 ton axles 38.5 boggers

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/my...oject-1019388/
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