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Unread 09-10-2013, 12:18 AM   #1
BigThicket
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Another No Spark issue...

OK so I have an 83 CJ8 and am installing the Howell TBI -w no emission stuff. It also has the square Ford coil and dizzy upgrade (TeamRush) installed by the PO. It ran for a week and 1/2 and then was flooding. Howell sent me a new tach filter and I put that in and after a bit of trying it stopped spraying and sparking.

I notice I was getting 12v to the Red (+) on the coil both crank and run so I thought I might have fried the module. I put a new module on it with a resistor (2nd on in 3 weeks). No luck...

I've been through all the testing that JeepHammer has put out there and my tests failed on the "Green Wire" on Run. Nothing from the test light but am getting about 4v of power. I re soldered the connection and ran grounds from the module and the dizzy straight to the battery and check that they were good. No luck...still no spark.

I tested the coil pickup and its ohms were good to the manual

Any thoughts? Maybe a new cap and rotor?

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Unread 09-10-2013, 08:00 AM   #2
Hawk4097
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Check to see if you are getting spark from the coil to the distributer
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Unread 09-10-2013, 06:13 PM   #3
BigThicket
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Thanks!! I check that last night and again today and I got nothing...

So the update today is that I put in new dist pickups, cap and rotor. I fired it up with new (yesterday's) module and got nothing.

While I was in town today I picked up all the stuff to do the HEI upgrade. Its still doing was still doing the same thing no spark or spray. Then I started messing with the coil's connector and got power somehow. Not sure if this was the added parts or a loose connection.

Then I started a rework of the "Green" wire and got spray. Fired it up and it ran for 2-3 minutes. Went out to pick up the kiddos (different vehicle) and when I came back I redid all the Coil's green and red wire connections. Now it won't start....not sure if it was me or maybe it fried something during it's short run becuase I didn't try it again before I started rewiring (arrrgh!!!).

Rechecked the "green" wire and even ran another one. No spray AGAIN!!!

I think this is just a Howell TBI issue now. I am not getting any RPM on the WinADL screen or the aftermarket tach.

Thoughts???
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Unread 09-12-2013, 04:36 AM   #4
BigThicket
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Update:

Replaced the TBI computer again and I guess I got a bad one because this one is spraying. Still running rich though (BLMs 108-ish) and won't idle after warming up and going into closed loop. Gapped the plugs to 50 and opened up the throttle plate all the way and got the BLMs to 118. The throttle plate screw is turned all the way clockwise...

I am getting the timing reset this morning but after that any other tricks to lean it out??
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Unread 09-12-2013, 12:57 PM   #5
86cj74.2L
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigThicket
Update:

Replaced the TBI computer again and I guess I got a bad one because this one is spraying. Still running rich though (BLMs 108-ish) and won't idle after warming up and going into closed loop. Gapped the plugs to 50 and opened up the throttle plate all the way and got the BLMs to 118. The throttle plate screw is turned all the way clockwise...

I am getting the timing reset this morning but after that any other tricks to lean it out??
What does it think the engine and throttle body temp are?

Do you have a 4 wire O2 sensor installed?
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Unread 09-12-2013, 02:06 PM   #6
BigThicket
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Thanks for the reply. I do have a heated O2 sensor. Basically I've replaced everything but the Throttle body itself with no luck. Idles fine until closed loop then dies. If I keep the RPMs up it is fine but if I let it drop below 1500rpm it tries to start dying.

Below are the numbers from WinADL:


IAC Temp SPEED MAP RPM TPS INT O2 Volt Knock BLM

99 188.6 0 100.4 0 0.2 128 0.893 12.5 0 128
145 188.6 0 100.4 0 0.2 128 0.88 12.6 0 128
145 187.3 0 100.4 0 0.2 128 0.866 12.6 0 128
145 187.3 0 94.5 725 17.6 128 0.981 12.8 72 123
44 187.3 0 63.5 975 10.8 128 0.977 13.2 147 123
44 188.6 0 38.4 1625 10.8 128 0.964 13.7 224 123
44 187.3 0 31.8 1775 9.9 128 0.946 13.8 43 123
39 187.3 0 31.4 1650 9.4 128 0.941 13.8 120 123
36 188.6 0 30.3 1800 9.9 128 0.946 13.9 196 123
33 188.6 0 28.1 1750 8.9 128 0.937 13.9 16 123
31 190 0 31 1775 9.9 128 0.937 13.9 92 123
30 190 0 29.9 1775 9.9 128 0.937 13.9 168 123
29 190 0 28.1 1775 8.9 128 0.933 13.9 244 123
28 190 0 31 1775 9.9 128 0.933 14 64 123
28 190 0 29.2 1850 9.9 128 0.924 13.9 140 123
25 190 0 28.8 1725 9.4 128 0.924 14 216 123
19 190 0 29.9 1675 9.9 128 0.919 13.9 36 123
13 190 0 29.9 1675 9.9 128 0.915 14 112 123
8 190 0 29.5 1725 9.9 128 0.911 14 188 123
2 190 0 29.5 1750 9.9 128 0.902 14 8 123
0 188.6 0 29.2 1725 9.9 128 0.906 13.9 84 123
0 188.6 0 29.5 1750 9.9 128 0.902 14 160 123
0 188.6 0 29.2 1750 9.9 128 0.906 14 236 123
0 190 0 29.5 1750 9.9 128 0.893 14 57 123
0 190 0 29.5 1700 9.9 128 0.893 14 132 123
0 190 0 29.9 1700 9.9 128 0.906 14 209 123
0 190 0 29.2 1700 9.9 128 0.871 14 28 123
0 190 0 29.5 1700 9.9 127 0.906 14 105 123
0 190 0 29.2 1750 9.9 124 0.875 14 180 122
0 190 0 29.9 1700 9.9 122 0.84 14 1 122
0 190 0 30.6 1625 9.9 119 0.769 14 76 121
0 191.4 0 31.4 1625 10.4 117 0.875 14 153 120
2 191.4 0 32.9 1775 10.8 116 0.831 14 229 119
2 191.4 0 30.6 1750 10.8 114 0.203 14 49 118
5 191.4 0 33.6 1825 11.3 114 0.261 14 125 118
6 191.4 0 31.8 1800 11.3 114 0.645 14 201 117
5 191.4 0 32.1 1725 11.3 114 0.119 14 21 116
5 191.4 0 32.5 1775 11.3 114 0.124 14 97 115
5 192.8 0 31.8 1725 11.3 115 0.756 14 173 115
5 192.8 0 32.1 1750 11.3 116 0.102 14 249 114
5 192.8 0 32.5 1800 11.3 117 0.672 14 69 113
5 192.8 0 32.5 1750 11.3 118 0.446 14 145 112
0 192.8 0 29.5 1525 8.9 118 0.084 14 221 112
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Unread 09-12-2013, 06:41 PM   #7
86cj74.2L
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I separated each parameter into their own column and have some questions...

When it goes to closed loop it defiantly looks like the O2 sensor is switching back and fourth like it should. Around 190 it seems to hit closed loop.

After closed loop have you slowly tried to back off the throttle and let it relearn its idle parameters. IE the IAC step position required for a stable idle? Especially while watching the O2 parameter to make sure it still is going high and low.

Do you have a target idle parameter visible in windal?

Reason I ask is if GM is like mopar the iac position gets tweeked to maintain a stable idle.

Its also interesting seeing how active knock is. Like there is engine noise making it think knock is present. And since you are not at idle it can't take a snapshot of the noise at idle to use to mask out engine noise. (Like a base line)
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Unread 09-12-2013, 07:27 PM   #8
BigThicket
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Thank you for the reply. I did back off the throttle to see if it was going to bog down. Over 1500-ish RPM the thing runs pretty good compare to the carb.

I am not sure where Target Idle parameter is. It is not in the log file. I don't recall it on the screen either. Is it a sensor or error message? This is my first TBI...

Below is the Knock sensor column:

I can send a couple of the files if it would help...import into excel.

SENSOR:Knock counter
188
8
84
160
236
57
132
209
28
105
180
1
76
153
229
49
125
201
21
97
173
249
69
145
221
41
117
194
13
90
165
242
61
138
213
34
109
186
6
82
158
234
54
130
206
26
102
178
1
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
128
0
0
0
0
72
147
224
43
120
196
16
92
168
244
64
140
216
36
112
188
8
84
160
236
57
132
209
28
105
180
1
76
153
229
49
125
201
21
97
173
249
69
145
221
0
0
0
0
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Unread 09-12-2013, 07:59 PM   #9
86cj74.2L
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Get it down to where it starts to run poor and take a snapshot like the first list. See what the O2 sensor is reading. Make sure it is in close loop first.
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Unread 09-12-2013, 08:49 PM   #10
BigThicket
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Apologies.... Below is a good example of the stall. Crank...rev up between 1500 and 2k for a couple of minutes then let off the throttle.

Not sure what the IAC is doing dropping like that at the higher RPM. Not really sure what IAC is other than that 4 wire plug.

IAC Temp SPEED MAP RPM TPS INT O2 Volt Knock BLM rich / lean counter

145 188.6 0 100.4 0 0.2 128 0.88 12.6 0 128 1
145 187.3 0 100.4 0 0.2 128 0.866 12.6 0 128 15
145 187.3 0 94.5 725 17.6 128 0.981 12.8 72 123 1
44 187.3 0 63.5 975 10.8 128 0.977 13.2 147 123 1
44 188.6 0 38.4 1625 10.8 128 0.964 13.7 224 123 1
44 187.3 0 31.8 1775 9.9 128 0.946 13.8 43 123 1
39 187.3 0 31.4 1650 9.4 128 0.941 13.8 120 123 1
36 188.6 0 30.3 1800 9.9 128 0.946 13.9 196 123 1
33 188.6 0 28.1 1750 8.9 128 0.937 13.9 16 123 1
31 190 0 31 1775 9.9 128 0.937 13.9 92 123 1
30 190 0 29.9 1775 9.9 128 0.937 13.9 168 123 1
29 190 0 28.1 1775 8.9 128 0.933 13.9 244 123 1
28 190 0 31 1775 9.9 128 0.933 14 64 123 1
28 190 0 29.2 1850 9.9 128 0.924 13.9 140 123 1
25 190 0 28.8 1725 9.4 128 0.924 14 216 123 1
19 190 0 29.9 1675 9.9 128 0.919 13.9 36 123 1
13 190 0 29.9 1675 9.9 128 0.915 14 112 123 1
8 190 0 29.5 1725 9.9 128 0.911 14 188 123 1
2 190 0 29.5 1750 9.9 128 0.902 14 8 123 1
0 188.6 0 29.2 1725 9.9 128 0.906 13.9 84 123 1
0 188.6 0 29.5 1750 9.9 128 0.902 14 160 123 1
0 188.6 0 29.2 1750 9.9 128 0.906 14 236 123 1
0 190 0 29.5 1750 9.9 128 0.893 14 57 123 1
0 190 0 29.5 1700 9.9 128 0.893 14 132 123 1
0 190 0 29.9 1700 9.9 128 0.906 14 209 123 1
0 190 0 29.2 1700 9.9 128 0.871 14 28 123 1
0 190 0 29.5 1700 9.9 127 0.906 14 105 123 1
0 190 0 29.2 1750 9.9 124 0.875 14 180 122 1
0 190 0 29.9 1700 9.9 122 0.84 14 1 122 1
0 190 0 30.6 1625 9.9 119 0.769 14 76 121 1
0 191.4 0 31.4 1625 10.4 117 0.875 14 153 120 4
2 191.4 0 32.9 1775 10.8 116 0.831 14 229 119 7
2 191.4 0 30.6 1750 10.8 114 0.203 14 49 118 16
5 191.4 0 33.6 1825 11.3 114 0.261 14 125 118 25
6 191.4 0 31.8 1800 11.3 114 0.645 14 201 117 28
5 191.4 0 32.1 1725 11.3 114 0.119 14 21 116 36
5 191.4 0 32.5 1775 11.3 114 0.124 14 97 115 41
5 192.8 0 31.8 1725 11.3 115 0.756 14 173 115 47
5 192.8 0 32.1 1750 11.3 116 0.102 14 249 114 56
5 192.8 0 32.5 1800 11.3 117 0.672 14 69 113 62
5 192.8 0 32.5 1750 11.3 118 0.446 14 145 112 69
0 192.8 0 29.5 1525 8.9 118 0.084 14 221 112 70
1525 8.9 118 0.084 14 221 112 70 0 0 0 0
57 192.8 0 100.4 0 0.2 128 0.004 0 0 128 0
145 192.8 0 100.4 0 0.2 128 0.004 0 0 128 0
145 192.8 0 100.4 0 0.2 128 0.004 0 0 128 0
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Unread 09-12-2013, 09:01 PM   #11
86cj74.2L
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Start it. Hold it high enough in rpm to run and when you see it how to closed loop slowly back off throttle.

When it just starts to run poor do a record.

Do you have a way of knowing when it goes close loop?
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Unread 09-12-2013, 09:17 PM   #12
BigThicket
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Yes WinADL has the Closed loop flag on one of the screens. That is basically what I did there. Doesn't take long to quit after closed loop. The only thing I haven't replaced is the injectors themselves. Maybe I'll swing by a juck yard and find one that will work well ennough to test.
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Unread 09-12-2013, 10:15 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigThicket
Yes WinADL has the Closed loop flag on one of the screens. That is basically what I did there. Doesn't take long to quit after closed loop. The only thing I haven't replaced is the injectors themselves. Maybe I'll swing by a juck yard and find one that will work well ennough to test.
It's the closed loop thing that gets me.

When its on fixed parameters during the warmup cycle in open loop its fine. When it goes closed loop a sensor or whatnot has it lost.
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Unread 09-12-2013, 10:19 PM   #14
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What do your plugs look like. Dark?

You think its rich running? But O2 volts look good when it goes to closed loop.
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Unread 09-13-2013, 11:21 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 86cj74.2L View Post
Its also interesting seeing how active knock is. Like there is engine noise making it think knock is present. And since you are not at idle it can't take a snapshot of the noise at idle to use to mask out engine noise. (Like a base line)
On the GM TBI system, the knock input is used to to help control spark timing. The Howell system does not use a knock sensor, since it does not control timing. That "activity" you see in the knock column is just noise, since there is no sensor hooked up.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BigThicket View Post
Not sure what the IAC is doing dropping like that at the higher RPM. Not really sure what IAC is other than that 4 wire plug.
The IAC (Idle Air Control) is a stepper motor that actuates a plunger to control the amount of air that is allowed to bypass the throttle plate when it is closed. There is a procedure for calibrating it. http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/gener...ml#post8093955



There is something going on at the fourth to last line on your most recent ALDL data snapshot.
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