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twmattox 03-09-2009 08:40 AM

AMC 360 oiling mod (JunkYard Genius {AKA JeepHammer} help needed)
 
I have scoured the internet and thought I would go to a source I trust to answer a couple questions I have about my 360.

I am getting my 360 rebuilt. I stripped it and dropped off at a machine shop. They indicated it needs bored (40 over) and the cam ground (10 under). I want to make sure it lasts a long time and have been told of a few oil modifications to make to the rig (though it is hard to understand why these things would not have been done from the factory if they are such improvements). Problem is I can't seem to find any real instructions on what to do or how to do it.

1) I found a fairly detailed hand drawn picture called AMC V-8 oil system mod #1. It indicates using a rotary file or drill bit to enlarge a hole in the oil pump housing (though it appears to be on the timing chain cover portion). Is this recommended or not?

2) I have found pictures regarding a valley oil mod (sometimes referred to as a rear main bearing oil mod). It appears to be a copper line running from the front of the engine to a hole drilled in the rear (all in the valley). Does this affect oil pressures (my neighbor is afraid this will prevent the engine from building pressure)? What diameter line is recommended? Is this a recommended mod?

3) I have heard about a mod that pumps oil from the oil pressure sending unit to the dizzy gears. Again, recommended???

4) One site strongly recommends using special cam bearings, rockers, and push rods (all with smaller diameter holes) to increase oil pressure. Recommended?

5) I do have one of the late model oil pumps (manufactured by Chrysler that has eliminated the oil filter bypass). I was told this was a good thing...true?


Though not an oil mod...I do have a question about cam/dizzy gears. I will be putting in a new cam (Clevite 77 RV cam) and a new double roller timing set (I believe Cloyes). Do I need to do something special with this (someone told me I needed to have them "matched")???

Thanks everyone...

twmattox 03-09-2009 12:38 PM

BTT for JeepHammer

mike06X 03-09-2009 01:19 PM

same setup - everyone told me its not necessary, but after roasting my first set of dist. gears (which i know was because they were not matched / hardened, etc) I decided to add an external line that squirts/drips on my distributor gear/fuel pump eccentric general area..i used plastic line from an old oil pressure gauge installation; and tapped off the same place my oil pressure gauge gets its source, near the filter..

is it necessary if everything else in the engine is working ok? ie. 1) #1 cam bearing positioned properly 2) cam gear installed and clear of casting flash and clear for oil to pass through and 3) general healthy oil passages and pump..

JH says more oil is better than no or less oil; so do the mod, it didn't cost me anything..does it help? who knows, who cares, can't see in there while its running; but it makes me fell better - if it fails again for whatever reason, at least i won't question myself, and i can say "well, i tried to do everything i could"

others say you definetaly don't need it, its another thing to fail, leak, blow out on the trail..others will say its a "leftover" mod from the days when people ran milodon mechanical timing gears I.P.O. a timing chain..

I decided to install a filter bypass eliminator plug as well; and always use a mobil 1 or k&n filter; no cheap fram's, etc..

The #1 cam bearing and cam gear do have to be installed and check for oil passage clearance and that they line up correctly, are not plugged with gunk, flash, or manufacturer error..

I went with an edelbrock timing gear set, double roller - it has different positions to allow for advancing or retarding valve timing (late model amc gear sets were manufactured with valve timing retarded for emissions or something like that); my edelbrock rv cam said not to use this type of replacement timing set.

i think general rule of thumb around here is warmed up, a healthy engine should make 20lbs at idle in gear; mine is around 60 when cold, goes to just under 20 when warm at idle; I've heard folks here having a LOT less..

My personal belief; the oil restricted push rods are a band-aid patch for high rpm engines; i used them on my olds 455 powered jet boat; 10 quart oil pan, external return lines from valve cover down the pan, and enlarged returns in the heads; and it would still starve for oil over around 5k rpms sustained..4500rpm was about top sustained rpm for that motor..i wouldn't use them just to throw them in unless there is a really a purpose need..

another thing to keep in mind, if you do have lower oil pressure, and you have already replaced your oil pump gears; etc., i have heard that the front cover assemblies do wear and the one oil pump gear -to- front cover housing clearances are beyond spec, you will never have good idle pressure, period - and you'll need a new front cover..

i guess the best advice i could give, is decide if you want the peace of mind of an added external oiling line to the distributor gears, and run the motor, and see what kind of pressure you have..

ohh, and if you didn't already figure it out - the most important thing i can tell you right now, is, regardless of what cam, timing set, and distributor you chose to run...YOU MUST USE MATCHED GEARS!! and not the new/hardened gear your distributor may have..and while you are it; with your front cover off; install whatever distributor you chose to run, check the distributor hole for excessive play, side-to-side slop, and check that once torked down, it does not put excessive binding downpressure on the oil pump drive..

and if you have to install a new gear on your distributor, regardless of which brand or type, check that the roll pin in relation to gear-teeth is 1) drilled correctly, and 2) installed on the shaft correctly, because if its 180*degrees off, your rotor will be slightly off, 1/2 tooth to be exact. and, you should also check that the gear, once roll pin in installed, has slight clearance (.015 - .020") to the shaft housing, and the gear itself does not interfere with the housing, and spins freely, with a little bit of up/and/down shaft clearance..

JeepHammer 03-09-2009 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twmattox (Post 6754560)
I am getting my 360 rebuilt. I stripped it and dropped off at a machine shop.

They indicated it needs bored (40 over) and the cam ground (10 under).

OK...
I think you mean cylinder bore of 0.040" overbore,
AND,
THE CRANK (not cam!) turned 0.010" under size.

This is pretty common...

AMC used a little more Nickle in the cast iron than they should have, so the blocks were softer.
0.040" on the block is usually to take the 'Funnel' shape out of the bore.
Rings wore the top of the cylinder more (less lubricant/more heat at the top) and the cylinder gets to looking like a FUNNEL! Wide at the top and narrower at the bottom!

I've not had the opportunity to receive a 360 AMC engine yet that didn't need at LEAST 0.030" to make it straight/round again, and 0.040" is more common than you think!

Although I try not to turn the cranks under if I can keep from it since the 360 had a cast iron crank, and any material you remove weakens it.

Also, The 'MAIN JOURNALS' where the main caps hold the crank in the block,
And the 'ROD JOURNALS' the connecting rods hook to the crank at can be turned differently if one or the other doesn't need turned...
It's only a few bucks extra for the odd sized bearings, and it's worth keeping the 0.010" of material on the crank if you can...

Although most of the cast iron Rod Journals will be "Egg Shaped" since pressure is only put on 1/4 of the journal during 'Compression Stroke' and then pressure put on the following 1/4 during 'Power Stroke',
1/2 of the journal will have virtually NO WEAR, and that makes for a 'Big Side' and a 'Small Side'.
When seen in cross section, it is 'Egg Shaped' so it all has to be turned round and true with crank centerline again...

I like to have the bearings in the block and/or rods and 'Torqued' before I turn the crankshaft, I can get an EXACT inside diameter measurement from the bearings...
When I know the EXACT inside diameter of the bearings,
I can turn the crank SPECIFICALLY to fit each bearing...

This keeps oil loss to a minimum, and you need ALL the help you can get in an AMC engine!
-----------------------------------

Quote:

I want to make sure it lasts a long time and have been told of a few oil modifications to make to the rig (though it is hard to understand why these things would not have been done from the factory if they are such improvements). Problem is I can't seem to find any real instructions on what to do or how to do it.

1) I found a fairly detailed hand drawn picture called AMC V-8 oil system mod #1. It indicates using a rotary file or drill bit to enlarge a hole in the oil pump housing (though it appears to be on the timing chain cover portion). Is this recommended or not?
YES!
By all means open that port in the pump body up!
Delivery VOLUME will be increased to the rest of the engine.
Won't matter when the engine is new and fresh and tight,
But later, when the bearings are drooling oil every direction, it will help you keep pressure later!
------------------------

Quote:

2) I have found pictures regarding a valley oil mod (sometimes referred to as a rear main bearing oil mod). It appears to be a copper line running from the front of the engine to a hole drilled in the rear (all in the valley). Does this affect oil pressures (my neighbor is afraid this will prevent the engine from building pressure)? What diameter line is recommended? Is this a recommended mod?
Your neighbor doesn't understand hydraulics or fluidics.

What you have to watch is,
You don't want to drill too deep, just into the oil passages both front and rear,

AND,
You don't want to use too long of a fitting that will block the passage that is already there.

Personally, I remove the rear gallery plug and drill out the stock passage just to make sure I didn't impinge on the factory passage with the fitting...

You will need a THOROUGH block cleaning after the machining!
You MUST use brushes and clean out all the metal from the galleries or it will wind up in your bearings somewhere!

I don't use copper line, copper will vibrate and fatigue fairly quickly (work hardens where it bends during vibration).
I prefer a flexable line with SOFT jacket!
DO NOT USE STEEL BRAIDED OUTER JACKET LINE!

The stainless steel outer will SAW THROUGH anything it comes into contact with! And those are metal shavings you DON'T WANT in your engine!

As for your neighbor,
Have him put a garden hose to his LEFT ear, then turn the spigot on and see if the water gets to his RIGHT ear...

Then, put a 'Y' in a garden hose, have him stick one in each.... Ear...
And turn the hose spigot on...
Ask him if he's getting water to both sides of his head!

Same difference with a single oil feed front to rear,
By the time the cam bearings, lifters, and front 3 mains leak off all the oil volume/pressure/supply, there isn't any for the REAR of the engine,
In particular the rear two mains and 7/8 rod journal...

By supplying pressure DIRECTLY to the rear of the engine,
The pressure/supply evens out from one end to the other in the engine, and the pressure doesn't drop to ZERO in the back of the block when things get some wear on them!
------------------------------------------------

Quote:

3) I have heard about a mod that pumps oil from the oil pressure sending unit to the dizzy gears. Again, recommended???
I've done them on race cars, and I've done them on Jeeps.
Never had a problem with race cars, but I've managed to pull the lines loose TWICE in jeeps...

Most of the time, If you make VERY SURE the front thrust washer oil passage hole (if one is used) and the top timing chain sprocket passage is clear,
Like wise with the rest of the passages,
You will be fine without this modification.

What happens most of the time,
You get replacement parts with the oil passages full of Casing flash, chips from machining, or they drilled in the wrong place, or in some cases, just plain missing/not there!
------------------------------------

Quote:

4) One site strongly recommends using special cam bearings, rockers, and push rods (all with smaller diameter holes) to increase oil pressure. Recommended?
Clevite 77 Bearings are the top of the heap, and very competitively priced!
I use them in ALL racing engine and 'heavy service' engines for years with absolutely NO problems!

As for push rods or rockers...
Good quality is the name of the game!
You don't have to pay a fortune, and you don't have to get some special kind...

Remember, there are engines with 200K on them using nothing more than stock,
And unless you are going racing and want ultra light for higher RPM operation, There is no SENSE in getting too bent out of shape on that stuff!
---------------------------------------

Quote:

5) I do have one of the late model oil pumps (manufactured by Chrysler that has eliminated the oil filter bypass). I was told this was a good thing...true?
They don't crack as easily/ better casting than the AMC versions.

Pressure bypass wasn't an issue in most cases unless it stuck open from broken spring or crud snagged in it.

Modern canister filters all have filter bypasses built into them, so a dirty filter won't starve the engine for oil...

I'd say use what you have, it should be fine as long as the base for the pump isn't scarred/scratched up.
-------------------------------

Quote:

Though not an oil mod...I do have a question about cam/dizzy gears. I will be putting in a new cam (Clevite 77 RV cam) and a new double roller timing set (I believe Cloyes). Do I need to do something special with this (someone told me I needed to have them "matched")???

Thanks everyone...
Nope, you can use your old gears if they are still in good shape,
OR, you can buy new from a reputable source.

Chrysler still has them available,
NAPA sill offers them, although you will probably have to root through paper books to find what you need,
MSD still offers both in high quality product.

Just stay away from the E-bay and '$20' gears...

twmattox 03-09-2009 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeepHammer (Post 6756418)
THE CRANK (not cam!)

-----------------------------------
Good catch...guess I should re-read my questions before submitting them. I knew better than this!
-----------------------------------
Quote:

Originally Posted by JeepHammer (Post 6756418)
Your neighbor doesn't understand hydraulics or fluidics.

What you have to watch is,
You don't want to drill too deep, just into the oil passages both front and rear,

AND,
You don't want to use too long of a fitting that will block the passage that is already there.

-----------------------------------
Ok, I think this was the mis-understanding. We both thought that it just "dumpped" the oil onto the cam in the rear... Not that it actually tied into the oiling passages in the rear of the block. As I had indicated above, I have found some information about the mods to do...but no real instructions! Do you have a write-up or know where I can find a fairly detailed explanation? My machine shop is fine drilling and tapping the holes...but I don't know what to do from there (what fittings to use, what diameter lines to use, what kind of line to use, etc). I can't seem to find any real detailed explanations anywhere...other than "cool" pictures.
-----------------------------------
Quote:

Originally Posted by JeepHammer (Post 6756418)
You will need a THOROUGH block cleaning after the machining!
You MUST use brushes and clean out all the metal from the galleries or it will wind up in your bearings somewhere!

-----------------------------------
Not a problem on this one. My machine shop will be doing the work and they WILL thoroughly clean it once done. They have an excellent reputation!
-----------------------------------
Quote:

Originally Posted by JeepHammer (Post 6756418)
I don't use copper line, copper will vibrate and fatigue fairly quickly (work hardens where it bends during vibration).
I prefer a flexable line with SOFT jacket!

------------------------------------------------
What kind of felx line? Like a Teflon or something? What diameter?
---------------------------------------
Quote:

Originally Posted by JeepHammer (Post 6756418)
Nope, you can use your old gears if they are still in good shape,
OR, you can buy new from a reputable source.

Chrysler still has them available,
NAPA sill offers them, although you will probably have to root through paper books to find what you need,
MSD still offers both in high quality product.

Just stay away from the E-bay and '$20' gears...

-----------------------------------
So, if I use my old cam gear and get a re-manned dizzy, it would be just fine? Won't the new cam come with a new cam gear? Won't the re-manned dizzy come with a new dizzy gear? They don't need to be "matched" (not that I even understand what that would entail me to do)???
[/QUOTE]

jfwireless 03-09-2009 07:19 PM

1 Attachment(s)
What about this cross drilled crank as shown in this article from JP magazine, is this a good oiling mod?

http://www.jpmagazine.com/techarticl...ine/index.html

Rather than depend strictly on the strength of the standard oil system's hydrodynamic oil wedge, Brandes had the crank cross-drilled (as indicated by the red wires inserted through the oil holes) to provide constant oiling through all 360 degrees of crank rotation.

Jim

JeepHammer 03-09-2009 09:08 PM

The link you posted goes to a password protected log in page.

Anyway, we did a BUNCH of cross drilling in early days. It was ALL the rage in the 80's and EVERYONE wanted it done.

So, when those engines with all that extra machining came back after long, hard use, I took careful notes about what DID, and DIDN'T make a difference.

To be quite frank about it, I couldn't tell the difference on anything that was cross drilled.
If I get a crank in that's cross drilled, I won't send it back, but I won't spend extra money or time to do the cross drilling.

twmattox 03-10-2009 09:26 AM

What kind of line do you recommend? Do you have any "part numbers" for the fittings I will need?

dsl4me 03-12-2009 12:36 PM

[QUOTE=JeepHammer;6756418]

Quote:

AMC used a little more Nickle in the cast iron than they should have, so the blocks were softer.
How much nickle did they use???
Nickle and tin are added to cast iron to increase its wear properties. That is one of the reasons we would look for 4 bolt truck motors(SBC). There was more chance of finding a high nickle block from HD apps for better ring life.

That was not always the case because we had one 4 bolt block bored that the machine shop said was one of the softest they had cut yet. Also know some people who work/worked in the Saginaw Grey Iron foundry that made cast blocks. When they mixed high nickle/alloy blocks for racing applications the leftover from the relatively small runs would be pored into production blocks.

JeepHammer 03-12-2009 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twmattox (Post 6763703)
What kind of line do you recommend? Do you have any "part numbers" for the fittings I will need?

I use a flexible line so vibration isn't an issue.
Heavy equipment applications have a flexible line that is Teflon lined, the wrapped in steel, then a poly-braid jacket so the steel doesn't eat into hose retainers (Clamps) on long runs.

Steel, or stainless steel hard line would be preferable to copper or aluminum.

1/2" inside diameter is plenty, some people get away with lines as small as 3/8".

mcktiger 03-12-2009 03:20 PM

go to bulltear.com alot of great info.from this site as far oiling you can do alot of things i went with smaller cam bearing holes. i was told if not turning real high rpms that dizzy gear oil is not nessary same with cross drilling the crank. you do need to watch what set of timing gear you buy.

JeepHammer 03-12-2009 04:27 PM

BullTear has products to sell.
Anyplace that is pushing products will want you to lean towards buying THEIR particular brand of product, instead of omitting it, or they will tell you to omit things they don't make/sell...

Anyway,
Like I said before, I do the INTERNAL timing oil modification that I came up with a few years back. Cost you time and a $1 MIG welder tip.

I do the Lifter Valley oiling modification on ALL AMC V-8 engines, especially blocks cast before 1987 when Chrysler took over and casting/machining got a lot tighter.

The Lifter Valley oiling modification should cost less than $30, and it should make your engine much more viable (longevity wise) as the engine ages...
Less oil to the rear means much more wear.
Keep good oil supply, and the engine will simply live longer before the rear bearings give up.

twmattox 03-13-2009 07:06 AM

Actually, I spoke with the owner of BullTear and he indicated that if I wasn't doing anything high RPM wise (extended time over 3500-4000 or so) I would be fine for 200k miles with no real modifications. Most of the upgrades he recommended were for more "extreme" uses than I am planning (mainly daily driver).

My only real frustration with their site is that their forum has links to all these cool pictures. However, the links are fried (no picture any more)...

jetmech1 04-09-2012 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twmattox (Post 6787615)
Actually, I spoke with the owner of BullTear and he indicated that if I wasn't doing anything high RPM wise (extended time over 3500-4000 or so) I would be fine for 200k miles with no real modifications. Most of the upgrades he recommended were for more "extreme" uses than I am planning (mainly daily driver).

My only real frustration with their site is that their forum has links to all these cool pictures. However, the links are fried (no picture any more)...

Do you mind me asking which machine shop you're using and would you recommend them? I'm getting ready to do my 360 build too and could use some contacts. Are they reasonable on the price? Thanks

ZionJeeps 04-01-2013 09:37 PM

What hose to use
 
Gentlemen, JEEPHAMMER specifically,

I am going to do some of these modifications to my 304 have a question about hose to use:

I read no copper and no braided stainless steel; what than is recommended?

the excited in me is building up to do this and I want to do it correctly the first time.

Rob


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