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Unread 07-27-2013, 12:00 PM   #16
LumpyGrits
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1985 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: The Mojave Desert Palmdale Ca. U.S.A.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by titomars View Post
Actually they were. The "World Class" box did not come out till 85/86 and that is different internally. Other than ratios there was no internal differences between the Jeep, S-10, Ford or any other T-5 from 82 to 84/85. besides the obvious input shaft and retainer and main shaft and tail housing. Even the Jeep main case is exactly the same as the Ford main case. The only difference is AMC did not migrate to the world class box when everyone else did.
PN's do not show this.
I have an 85 and 86 T-5.
I have also helped rebuild a "World- Class" T-5 from a '09, 'pony'.
The first thing you see in difference between the 2, are the gear ratios and the 'beef' the WC has.
The bearings and counter shaft are drastically different.
http://www.moderndriveline.com/Techn...t5_history.htm
LG

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Unread 07-27-2013, 12:05 PM   #17
titomars
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Originally Posted by Cpolinsky View Post
I forgot about the bell housing what would I need to do to make it work to a t5 I thought they were different? (Any mods I have to make to make it fit)
You will have to check, but the bolt pattern to the block is different and not compatible between the two. You will need a 258 bellhousing for a T-4 or T-5. Since everyone hates the T-5 and swaps to a 4 spd you should be able to find one cheap.
__________________
I don't worry about my MPG's. I see it as the price of admission...............Damn what a ride!!!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
**Originally Posted by wm69 **
This is the kinda whiny crap I would expect to see in the JK forum. We drive rough riding, leaking, gas guzzling CJ's. Rattle can it and throw it in your Jeep.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
1981 Jeep CJ7 258 4.0 HO head, T-5, D300, D30, D44, SOA
1994 Jeep XJ 4.0 HO, AX-15 (My Beater)
1946 Bantam T3-C (original Calif trailer, no rust)
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Unread 07-27-2013, 12:15 PM   #18
titomars
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LumpyGrits View Post
PN's do not show this.
I have an 85 and 86 T-5.
I have also helped rebuild a "World- Class" T-5 from a '09, 'pony'.
The first thing you see in difference between the 2, are the gear ratios and the 'beef' the WC has.
The bearings and counter shaft are drastically different.
http://www.moderndriveline.com/Techn...t5_history.htm
LG
like I said world class is not the same. Compare apple to apples. 82 to 84 boxes are the same. AMC did not migrate to the W/C. They used the standard early box the entire run. Why? a 110 hp inline did not need a W/C box.
Believe me if AMC used a W/C it would be in my CJ right now. I also know the differences between a standard and a W/C. I was a mechanic for both GM and Ford in the 80's and 90's. Ohh and my 86 F150 had an 90 W/C from SVO.
__________________
I don't worry about my MPG's. I see it as the price of admission...............Damn what a ride!!!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
**Originally Posted by wm69 **
This is the kinda whiny crap I would expect to see in the JK forum. We drive rough riding, leaking, gas guzzling CJ's. Rattle can it and throw it in your Jeep.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
1981 Jeep CJ7 258 4.0 HO head, T-5, D300, D30, D44, SOA
1994 Jeep XJ 4.0 HO, AX-15 (My Beater)
1946 Bantam T3-C (original Calif trailer, no rust)
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Unread 07-27-2013, 08:59 PM   #19
Cpolinsky
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Ok I think I got it. So I need to find a bell housing for a t-5 that was already attached to a 258.

Now as for a radiator will I need a new one I'm assuming i'll need one for a 258?

Also when I go to the parts store to get parts do I search for? (Meaning the engine is from a different car so will I have them search for that vehicle or just pick a year of cj7 that the 258 was in)?
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Unread 07-27-2013, 11:00 PM   #20
titomars
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpolinsky View Post
Ok I think I got it. So I need to find a bell housing for a t-5 that was already attached to a 258.

Now as for a radiator will I need a new one I'm assuming i'll need one for a 258?

Also when I go to the parts store to get parts do I search for? (Meaning the engine is from a different car so will I have them search for that vehicle or just pick a year of cj7 that the 258 was in)?
If I am understanding you correctly you can't just walk into a parts store and order everything you need to drop a 258 into a Jeep. The hard parts are no longer made. Remember you own a vehicle from a long dead auto manufacturer and it's 30+ years old anyway.
258's were used in Jeeps from the 1972 to 1990 in Jeeps. 258's were mated to T-5's from 82 to 86. The 151 was a GM engine that AMC used since they did not have their own 4 cyl at that time. A 151 bell housing will have a GM bolt pattern to the block not an AMC bolt pattern. Once you have a 258 in your Jeep you would buy service parts for what ever year the engine is. Unless you use the same year engine as your Jeep or convert the engine to be as it would have rolled out of the factory in your model year Jeep. A footnote engine packages at that time were pretty much the same across models. An 82 Eagle 258 is not really any different than an 82 CJ 258. Some accessories (Alternator brackets, P/S brackets, oil pan) and plumbing will be different due to body designs. Some key pieces will be CJ only parts and they will not be available as service parts. Motor mount brackets for one. There are 4 of them 2 that mount to the block and 2 that mount to the frame. the mount itself is a service part that can be had at most parts stores.
You can figure anything from the bellhousing to the fan on your 151 as not interchangeable. the only exceptions i can think of are the alternator and the P/S pump. But their mounting brackets are not. You would have to acquire those brackets. Also you will have to do some wiring work to the engine. The 4cyl harness will have to be modified somewhat to work with the 258. the easiest way to do the conversion would be to find someone that is removing their 258 and installing a V8 since everything I just spoke of, they can't use on their V8 conversion. Radiator can be any 76 up CJ with a 258 or V8 but you have to be careful with V8 rads since there is not a lot of room for all V8 rads. example: I have a 3 core rad in mine and it is very tight. With electric fans there is only 1/2 inch clearance between the fans and the W/P pulley.
__________________
I don't worry about my MPG's. I see it as the price of admission...............Damn what a ride!!!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
**Originally Posted by wm69 **
This is the kinda whiny crap I would expect to see in the JK forum. We drive rough riding, leaking, gas guzzling CJ's. Rattle can it and throw it in your Jeep.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
1981 Jeep CJ7 258 4.0 HO head, T-5, D300, D30, D44, SOA
1994 Jeep XJ 4.0 HO, AX-15 (My Beater)
1946 Bantam T3-C (original Calif trailer, no rust)
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Unread 07-27-2013, 11:32 PM   #21
Cpolinsky
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Titomars Wow thank you so much for all your help I have a feeling i'll be picking your brain as this goes on.

So I would remove my wiring harness and replace it with a 6 cyl wiring harness? Now if down the road I'd be installing a t176 w/ 360 would I need a 360 harness or would the 6 work? (Sorry As much as I love working on my jeep i'm still a newbie when it comes to engine work and such)
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Unread 07-27-2013, 11:42 PM   #22
titomars
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpolinsky View Post
Titomars Wow thank you so much for all your help I have a feeling i'll be picking your brain as this goes on.
No problem Cpolinsky feel free. Also I am happy to help if i can.
__________________
I don't worry about my MPG's. I see it as the price of admission...............Damn what a ride!!!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
**Originally Posted by wm69 **
This is the kinda whiny crap I would expect to see in the JK forum. We drive rough riding, leaking, gas guzzling CJ's. Rattle can it and throw it in your Jeep.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
1981 Jeep CJ7 258 4.0 HO head, T-5, D300, D30, D44, SOA
1994 Jeep XJ 4.0 HO, AX-15 (My Beater)
1946 Bantam T3-C (original Calif trailer, no rust)
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Unread 07-28-2013, 06:00 AM   #23
gosupes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpolinsky View Post
Titomars Wow thank you so much for all your help I have a feeling i'll be picking your brain as this goes on.

So I would remove my wiring harness and replace it with a 6 cyl wiring harness? Now if down the road I'd be installing a t176 w/ 360 would I need a 360 harness or would the 6 work? (Sorry As much as I love working on my jeep i'm still a newbie when it comes to engine work and such)
With the 1984, you should have the AMC 150, not the GM 151. Your harness will work fine. Do you have emission checks over there? If so, that can create another set of issues.

The radiator will have to be swapped, the ones in the 4 cyl versions are too small. You will need to do something with the clutch but the good news is you should already be hydraulic so a new line and a slave from an early 80's model and you are set. You will need a new exhaust headpipe at a minimum. There is a bunch of other nickel and dime items too, its been so long since I went thru this, I have forgotten the small details.
__________________
1986 CJ7, 4.2 w/4.0 head, TFI-HEI hybrid ignition, Clifford manifold w/Holley 390 w/cold air intake, OBA, 4.5" lift, Woody CV shaft and Tattons in front, 4.10 gears - lunchbox in front, Truetrac in the back, twin-sticked, blower upgrade for running topless, trying to keep it simple.

It's just a Jeep, and if you don't wheel it once in a while, it's not even that.
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Unread 07-28-2013, 08:20 AM   #24
titomars
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpolinsky View Post
Titomars Wow thank you so much for all your help I have a feeling i'll be picking your brain as this goes on.

So I would remove my wiring harness and replace it with a 6 cyl wiring harness? Now if down the road I'd be installing a t176 w/ 360 would I need a 360 harness or would the 6 work? (Sorry As much as I love working on my jeep i'm still a newbie when it comes to engine work and such)
I said you would have to modify your harness to work with the 258. You will have to lengthen a few wires and possibly reroute a few others. With a V8 you will have to do it again. Reading the response before mine does bring up a question of which 4 cyl you have. If you do have a AMC 150 you will have a few things easier like the alt and P/S brackets should transfer over since the AMC 150 is basically an AMC I6 with 2 cylinders chopped off. unfortunately the AMC 150 still has the wrong bolt pattern for the bellhousing.
I was assuming you had no emissions testing. If you do that will be a whole new can of worms to add to the swap.
__________________
I don't worry about my MPG's. I see it as the price of admission...............Damn what a ride!!!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
**Originally Posted by wm69 **
This is the kinda whiny crap I would expect to see in the JK forum. We drive rough riding, leaking, gas guzzling CJ's. Rattle can it and throw it in your Jeep.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
1981 Jeep CJ7 258 4.0 HO head, T-5, D300, D30, D44, SOA
1994 Jeep XJ 4.0 HO, AX-15 (My Beater)
1946 Bantam T3-C (original Calif trailer, no rust)
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Unread 07-28-2013, 08:36 AM   #25
Cpolinsky
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Posts: 152
Sorry for any confusion I do have the amc 150. So that's nice that I can keep the brackets. And ill have to get the correct bell housing. I did have emissions testing since this vehicle was in a state that required testing. But if I do this I'm thinking of leaving at parents place and driving it when I visit since it would be grand fathered in. Or there is a chance I might be staying permanently in wa so I'm trying to figure that all out before I do this. So I have everything in order.
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Unread 07-28-2013, 08:55 AM   #26
titomars
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpolinsky View Post
Sorry for any confusion I do have the amc 150. So that's nice that I can keep the brackets. And ill have to get the correct bell housing. I did have emissions testing since this vehicle was in a state that required testing. But if I do this I'm thinking of leaving at parents place and driving it when I visit since it would be grand fathered in. Or there is a chance I might be staying permanently in wa so I'm trying to figure that all out before I do this. So I have everything in order.
As for emissions testing just remember it (the engine) must conform to the model year of the vehicle if the engine is older than the vehicle If the engine is newer then the vehicle must conform to the engine. So every smog device present with a 84 CJ must be on the new engine and working. Also depending on state regulations you may have to have it inspected after an engine swap for certification of compliance. you will have to do that twice if you eventually go the a 360. Where is the 258 coming from you plan to use?

Ohh side note: those motor mount brackets may be reusable for the 258, but I am not 100% sure on that.
__________________
I don't worry about my MPG's. I see it as the price of admission...............Damn what a ride!!!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
**Originally Posted by wm69 **
This is the kinda whiny crap I would expect to see in the JK forum. We drive rough riding, leaking, gas guzzling CJ's. Rattle can it and throw it in your Jeep.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
1981 Jeep CJ7 258 4.0 HO head, T-5, D300, D30, D44, SOA
1994 Jeep XJ 4.0 HO, AX-15 (My Beater)
1946 Bantam T3-C (original Calif trailer, no rust)
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Unread 07-28-2013, 01:15 PM   #27
Cpolinsky
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Posts: 152
Oh the 258 is coming from wa.

But now I've got a dilemma I have another friend who told me that he has a 304 so I don't know much about that motor is it better then the 258?

Also I can get the bell housing for the 258 to t5 would that bell housing still work for the 304 to t5? And is it wise to do that? It seems like it would be a good fox since them it's already a v8 so when I rebuild my 360 and swap that in with the t176 I should be able to use all parts under good expect maybe doing a few adjustments for the harness.

I'm sorry for all the questions I'm just not sure f the 304 would work.

Thanks
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Unread 07-28-2013, 01:25 PM   #28
gosupes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by titomars View Post
As for emissions testing just remember it (the engine) must conform to the model year of the vehicle if the engine is older than the vehicle If the engine is newer then the vehicle must conform to the engine. So every smog device present with a 84 CJ must be on the new engine and working. Also depending on state regulations you may have to have it inspected after an engine swap for certification of compliance. you will have to do that twice if you eventually go the a 360. Where is the 258 coming from you plan to use?

Ohh side note: those motor mount brackets may be reusable for the 258, but I am not 100% sure on that.
Those are Cali smog laws, not WA. I am not sure Gig Harbor has smog laws, it varies city to city, county to county. My city happens to be exempt from testing. Older vehicles should just get a sniffer, it has to pass the limits for the engine it came stock with, not what it currently has. And no inspection for an engine swap.

I did the 150 to 258 swap about 6 years ago, the harness will not have to be hacked unless you are trying to keep emission components intact. I completely Nuttered mine and removed the ECM and all related sensors and components. The connections left over for the ICM, alternator, temp and oil pressure senders did not have to be altered. For the brackets, I cannot remember what moves over, but I don't think there was any brackets I reused. I could be mistaken on that, it has been a while.
__________________
1986 CJ7, 4.2 w/4.0 head, TFI-HEI hybrid ignition, Clifford manifold w/Holley 390 w/cold air intake, OBA, 4.5" lift, Woody CV shaft and Tattons in front, 4.10 gears - lunchbox in front, Truetrac in the back, twin-sticked, blower upgrade for running topless, trying to keep it simple.

It's just a Jeep, and if you don't wheel it once in a while, it's not even that.
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Unread 07-28-2013, 01:26 PM   #29
gosupes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpolinsky View Post
Oh the 258 is coming from wa.

But now I've got a dilemma I have another friend who told me that he has a 304 so I don't know much about that motor is it better then the 258?

Also I can get the bell housing for the 258 to t5 would that bell housing still work for the 304 to t5? And is it wise to do that? It seems like it would be a good fox since them it's already a v8 so when I rebuild my 360 and swap that in with the t176 I should be able to use all parts under good expect maybe doing a few adjustments for the harness.

I'm sorry for all the questions I'm just not sure f the 304 would work.

Thanks
258 and 304 are same bellhousing pattern. The T5 might not last long behind the 304 unless you are pretty gentle with the skinny pedal.

You are looking at doing a lot of things twice. Change from a 4 cyl to a 258 and a T5, a lot of changes needed, cooling, exhaust, driveshafts lengthened/shortened, clutch hydraulics, etc. Swap in a 304 with a T5, probably have to alter the driveshafts again plus more exhaust work. Swap in a 360 with a T176, again you might have to adjust the driveshafts due to the difference in length from a T176 to a T5. You should really think about what you want in the long run. I would rather have a 360 over a 304 and the T176 over the T5 is a no brainer. I would drive the 150 until it died, rebuild the 360/T176 and have it ready when it does. Swap things over once and be done.
__________________
1986 CJ7, 4.2 w/4.0 head, TFI-HEI hybrid ignition, Clifford manifold w/Holley 390 w/cold air intake, OBA, 4.5" lift, Woody CV shaft and Tattons in front, 4.10 gears - lunchbox in front, Truetrac in the back, twin-sticked, blower upgrade for running topless, trying to keep it simple.

It's just a Jeep, and if you don't wheel it once in a while, it's not even that.
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Unread 07-28-2013, 01:36 PM   #30
Cpolinsky
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Since I'm in a transition period I'm still trying to figure out if I'm going to leave my jeep up in wa with parents (and drive it when I visit then I can do all the swaps I'll register it there and it would be a fun vehicle to drive when I'm visiting, I came back from ca for a few week vacation and due to family stuff I've had to stay for a while I had tingly back to drive my jeep up here) if I bring it back to ca I need I make sure it meets all the emissions which it has now but once I start changing things it's going to be very expensiveness most likely not worth it process.

Since I'm new with my jeep (I had her for a while) I'm not a big off road guy yet kind of want to do lots of work to my jeep before I'm ready to tackle the off roading aspects.

In gig harbor it would be exempt from smog.

I would be babying it mostly driving on highway so I figured the 258 would be a nice little upgrade for now but when I saw this 304 come to me I figured maybe that would be better.
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