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Unread 01-04-2010, 05:09 PM   #1
CooterBrown
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alternator and volt reg help!!!

so heres the scoop, since it has dropped to sub-freezing temps old red my 65 cj5 has been throwing all kinds of problems at me. it wouldnt cranks the starter would fire but wouldnt turn over the engine? so i blamed it on the cold and figured id try when it was warm, so i tried that and click, nothing. jump started it and it ran fine and drove it for about an hour back and forth across town hoping it would charge, went to autozone and had them test the battery and the battery is good, but because it wouldnt start his tester wouldnt check the alternator. so longer story shorter. he told me he believes it to be the voltage regulator. it is an f-134 engine with all original components. i doubt the volt reg is original, so im not too much worried about using any old volt reg,. but i dont want to replace the alternator with a new one if i can save the old one or buy and original "clone." any thoughts as to other fixes or advice would be greatly appreciated thanks

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Unread 01-04-2010, 06:07 PM   #2
CooterBrown
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Aaaaahhhh

ive been lookin online for an OEM replacement, and theyre no where to be found, no one even has the parts to rebuild one, what everyone is pointin me to is to just putting a one wire aftermarket 100 in it. i really want to keep it original because i believe that like anything if you replace all the insides it loses the fact that its a 65 jeep and because a hodgepodge of other crap. is this my only option?
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Unread 01-04-2010, 08:38 PM   #3
JeepHammer
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I'm guessing you have a big, old long cylinder of a generator instead of an alternator....
If so, read on.
-------

No, it's not your only option.
Voltage regulators of the time were usually MECHANICAL.
They had a pretty much CUBE box, about 4" across,
Sitting on what looked like a sheet metal base.

These were MECHANICAL regulators, and they were a PAIN IN THE BUTT to deal with.
They MUST be set, they MUST have points filed, and the MUST be serviced to make them work correctly.

There are also 'A' & 'B' versions, and you need to know which you have to get the correct one.

These things have to be POLARIZED once the battery is unhooked, or the voltage regulator is unhooked from the DC generator...

(Yes, that's a DC generator, not an AC 'Alternator')

---------------------------

And just for the record,
About every time someone brought me a 'BAD' mechanical voltage regulator,
The generator needed rebuild, that's why the voltage regulator quit working...

I ran an alternator/generator & starter rebuild shop for about 10 years, and I live in the middle of a bunch of farm tractor restore nuts, so I've seen a BUNCH of these!

----------------------------------

OR,
You have the choice of using a SOLID STATE voltage regulator...

they are about 1" thick, bolt into place of your current voltage regulator,
Have the same footprint and sheet metal base as the original voltage regulator,
But the actual cover for the voltage regulator is only about 3/4" thick instead of 3 or 4" tall.

You DO NOT have to do maintinance on them,
And you only have to polarize them ONCE when you install them.

Dead batteries, removing the generator or battery (as long as you don't do both at once) will keep the polarized their entire lives on the vehicle.

--------------------------------------------

Something you might want to do since you did a lot of jump starting and cranking on your engine...

Take a look to see if the FUSE is still on the voltage regulator tab...
Should be screwed to the voltage regulator 'BAT' terminal and looks like this,



You might want to remove or jump over that if it's still there and see if the system starts charging again.
You may have popped the fuse protecting (or supposed to protect) the voltage regulator...

-----------------------------------------------

If you have a MOTOROLA alternator, which most places switched out the old DC generators for Motorola alternators years ago,
Then the voltage regulator is screwed to the back of the alternator in most cases.

Get me some pictures to work from and I'll look in the old books I have around here to see what I can find to fix, test, replace and get you up and going again...
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Unread 01-04-2010, 09:44 PM   #4
CooterBrown
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Wow that makes sense. Yes it is the long cylindrical lookin thing. Looks nothing like any alternator I've ever seen. So my guess is that's it. I will take some pictures tmrw and get them up around lunch. Where is the volt regulator supposed to be located. This jeep is an electrical nightmare from the PO. So there's no telling. But thanks for the response that's more info than I could have expected. I look forward to what u can find out for me. Thanks
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Unread 01-05-2010, 06:11 AM   #5
JeepHammer
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I need pictures of the unit it's self,
And I need the numbers off the unit if you can find them.

Pictures of the voltage regulator will help also.

Also, any script on the voltage regulator will help a bunch.
Just knowing what the terminals are marked and which have wires hooked up to them will help too.

Not all types have 4 wires hooked up to the 4 terminals,
Some have jumper wires from one terminal to another,

Anyway, I'll dig out my old regulator books (have a couple left from the rebuild days) and have a look once you get me those pictures.

You probably don't have enough posts to get a direct posting going with the pictures, so upload them to some of the photo sharing sites and post the addresses and I'll make them visible for you.
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Unread 01-05-2010, 06:31 AM   #6
JeepHammer
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Looking through the book here,
F head engines (I-4) had a generator with 4 terminal or 5 terminal regulator.
Should only have three connections, but there are two wires connecting at the end terminals on the regulator.

This manual I have doesn't identify the terminals.

-----------------

Then if you go back farther, (and it doesn't give a Year break, just serial number break)

CJ-5 after serial #49248 with with F-head engine shows a Triple Pole (3 terminals) regulator,
Three terminals out the side instead of 4,

So let me know what your serial number is so I can chase the correct regulator...
If you don't want your serial number on the open forum, send it to me on PM.
Don't think it matters with this bunch either way, but either way is fine.

I'll see if I can find you a wiring diagram and diagnostic chart/instructions for this thing.

Personally, I would go with SOLID STATE regulator for running,

AND,
I'd get a mechanical regulator for 'Period Correctness' that never came out of the box...
Just to sell with the vehicle if you ever choose to do that.

Solid state is SO MUCH MORE RELIABLE than mechanical,
AND SO MUCH LESS WORK!
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Unread 01-05-2010, 07:58 AM   #7
JeepHammer
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THIS *MIGHT* BE THE DIAGRAM INFORMATION YOU NEED...

I still need to know which regulator you have,
Number off the regulator if you can find it,

And I still need to know what arrangment the F,G & A terminals are in off the generator,
And if you can find a part number or amp output rating on the generator,
That would help also!

--------------------------------------------------

Take a look at this diagram and your wiring harness,
Let me know if yours looks like this,

If there is a terminal on the 'Back' side of the regulator,
I need to know that also...

As in the voltage regulator looking the same, All three terminals on the same side, Two wires each on the end terminals, ect.

Color Coding Of The Wires WILL NOT Be Correct In This Diagram!

I used these colors shown to keep track of the connections while I was doing the diagram and they WILL NOT be correct in your harness!





If this *LOOKS* correct to what you have,
Then look at the tag on the generator.

This particular regulator shown is PRESTOLITE unit,
for 27-31 Amp generators,
Positive or Negative ground, so you WILL have to polarize it,
Voltage set point is 41.1 volts, so it won't work with a 6 volt system,

And the Ace p/n is 2197, Transpo p/n is P2197 on the unit shown above...
That will help you locate one on the internet.

This particular unit replaces
Jeep/AMC 3150217, 3162133, 3203660, 3157207, 3162133, 3203660,

Prestolite
8-82, 8-84, 8-416, SRP1372, SRPP9004, VBO6201C, VBO6201C3

Delco A610M, A611, 1972160, 1972258

Ford GRX82, GRX84, GRX100

So if you find any of those part numbers on the regulator you have,
This would be a direct replacment.

Last edited by JeepHammer; 01-05-2010 at 08:36 AM..
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Unread 01-05-2010, 08:23 AM   #8
JeepHammer
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Something else you should keep in mind,
If the 'Amps' or charging indicator light bulb in the cluster is burned out, the system WILL NOT charge.

If you have an 'Amps' gauge (Ammeter) in your dash, and it's gone bad, you WILL NOT get charge to the battery.

Turn the key 'ON' but don't start the engine...
Does your 'Amps' light come on in the cluster? (if you have one)

Looks just like a bad generator/voltage regulator and I've replaced/rebuild many a generator and voltage regulator when it turned out to be the Amps gauge or light bulb...
(Farmers don't do diagnosis worth a darn!)

Get yourself a TEST LIGHT, the kind with BULB, not LEDs...

Ground the 'Wire' end to the negative terminal of the battery...
Probe the Positive terminal of the battery to test the test light and to see what a 'Bright' light looks like.

Probe the 'BAT' terminal for 'Bright' light.
This means the voltage regulator is getting power from the battery as it should.
If you don't get a 'Bright' light here, you have an issue with the wire from starter relay to voltage regulator.

Probe the 'ARM' (armature) terminal for power with the key swtich OFF.
Shouldn't get anything.

Probe the 'ARM' terminal for power with the key 'ON'.
You should get a 'Dim' light, not as bright as the 'Bat' terminal.
If you don't get a 'Light' at all, that means you have an Issue with the wire from gauge cluster to voltage regulator.

If you get the 'Dim' light,
That means the regulator is getting the 'Ignition' switch signal.

Probe the Generator 'A' or 'ARM' terminal with the key switch 'ON' and you should get a 'Dim' light there also.
If not, you have an issue with the wire from voltage regulator to generator.
---------------

Now, move the wire on the tester from Positive to Negative battery terminal and probe the Positive terminal to test the 'Test Light',
You should get a 'Bright' light.
-----------------------------------------------------

From what I can see in the books,
About all the 'Early' CJ's used a PRESTOLITE generator and voltage regulator.

There are a dozen or more regulators that are VERY similar, so if you can find part numbers, amperage output of the generator (usually on a tag on the generator) ect. that will all be helpful.

If I can get enough information, I'll look for a solid state unit for your vehicle.
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Unread 01-05-2010, 08:40 AM   #9
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REMEMBER!
These Mechanical regulators need maintinance!
You need to file breaker points inside to keep them square and flat, and keep the burned material off them so they make contact.

Every time you file the points, you need to reset the 'Limits' of the regulator because filing the points moves the 'set' points around.

Springs corrode/rust and don't do their jobs correctly, ect.

Test your old one, get a VOLT meter on the battery to make sure your system is producing or failed,
And consider doing some re-wiring to get rid of the old wire that has surely corroded by now!
Or at least put new terminals on the wire ends...
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Unread 01-05-2010, 10:10 AM   #10
CooterBrown
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alright so i got some pics ill have to do the test light thing. the regulator apears to be new or newer and only has three terminals. two on the left side and one on the right.







i couldnt find any serial numbers on the reg all it says is echlin and then shows how to polarize it.

the wires and terminals do look kinda corroded and the wiring is pretty small guage wire. (typical of the PO work) so i will try and replace it with new slightly bigger wire. or hell it could be the original wiring. and unfortunatly the Data plate on the generator is rubbed complertely smooth and it painted so i dont have any numbers or anything on it but heres some pics do you know if these were engraved or stamped after work i will try to get the rust and paint off and see if i can get some sort of numbers off it.

from fire wall looking forward


from the top


thanks for all your help this is awesome.

Last edited by CooterBrown; 01-05-2010 at 10:23 AM..
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Unread 01-05-2010, 10:16 AM   #11
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oh and the amp light on my cluster (speedo) will come on some times but not always. i did notice in the picture that there is an end fitting on the "arm" terminal that has no wire on it? but looking around i couldnt find the broken end to trace it. so i think it has been gone some time. there is an after market volt meter mounted under the dash that moves when the ignition is on but idk if it is even hooked up. this jeep is like i said an electrical nightmare the PO used 18 guage wire for everything and spliced and taped everything and just followed the original wireing harness. ive been slowly but surely fixing it. but havent messed with any of the cluster or ignition/charging system wires yet so i dont think i boogered it up. if you need any more pics let me know and ill try to get the vin on here after work. ill post it im not worried about any one steeling my jeeps identity haha
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Unread 01-05-2010, 10:23 AM   #12
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oh yea and the fuse that you sent a picture of i didnt see it on any of the wires i assume it is gone.
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Unread 01-05-2010, 12:44 PM   #13
JeepHammer
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One thing I see right off is you have it mounted on fiberglass.
The case for this unit MUST BE GROUNDED!


Part number for the regulator is sometimes printed on the bottom of the unit.
The same cover will work on different kinds of regulators, so they won't have the part number on them.
(Guess I should have mentioned it earlier)

The generator you show is probably a Prestolite unit, instead of a Delco,
but they would interchange, so that's not a big issue.

Fuse being gone is almost mandatory, I didn't see many at all in 10 years of doing this kind of work...
Guys take them off, can't figure out what they do, and leave them out of the circuit.
Charging system works, so they don't sweat it, and since it doesn't look like the fuses they are used to seeing, they don't know what it is and don't care.

The one you have is an Echlin, and their primary distributor is NAPA.

The Tag on the alternator is going to be the key to this.
Try some solvent on a rag or light sanding to get the paint off (some place dip the cases in rust preventative 'Red Lead' primer to keep them from rusting/corroding when they rebuild.

If you can't lift the primer off the tag with solvent,

If you use something with a very square edge on it,
Then cover it in emery cloth,
Do a sand over the tag on the generator and it will probably raise the numbers stamped into the tag.

Go back and forth in the same directions and the numbers will usually be visible.

What you are showing me on the generator and voltage regulator is saying 'Type A' generator and regulator.
I really need to know what the output of that generator is to know which voltage regulator to steer you towards...

Polarizing instructions are correct on the cover for NEGATIVE GROUND vehicles.

This type of generator came in three 'Flavors',
27-31 Amp,
37-41 Amp,
42-46 Amp,

With the most common on Jeeps being 27-31 Amp.

Since the 'Voltage' regulator is actually a CURRENT regulator on these DC output units, I REALLY need to know what the output of your generator is...

Last edited by JeepHammer; 01-05-2010 at 01:03 PM..
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Unread 01-05-2010, 02:43 PM   #14
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alright so the fiber glass thing has been a PITA since the beginning haha. i hate it. so i need to move it. any suggestions on a good place for it? i have had a time and a half with trying to get everything grounded when i got it the guy had grounded EVERYTHING to the negative on the battery it was a birds nest.

i didnt get a chance to trouble shoot it as you had sent. i got the volt meter out and got the data plate cleaned off and the 20 degrees and 30 mile an hour wind i said screw it its cold. haha. but when i have access to a garage i will do that.

the data plate reads as follows

P4- 71(MAYBE ANOTHER 1 )
GJ (G OR 6)- 7401
12V. 35A.

it was pretty banged up but other than whats in the brackets im almost possitive. i assume the 35a is 35 amps.

the keeps serial number is 8305 190183 kaiser jeep corp.

do you need the serial number on the volt reg. if so i can get it tonight but tomorrow morning my ship is gettin underway to break ice for 3 weeks. gotta love the coast guard. haha. so anything further stuff will have to wait til i get back unfortunately.

so do you think that if i get that thing re-mounted to a metal surfaces (gotta figure that one out, haha) and then took it apart and cleaned it and filed the teeth square and re-gapped?? it? it would work again with of course some new wires and cleaned up the terminals of course. but thus far thanks alot for all your help thats awesome that there is people out there willing to dedicate the time to help others, i think that is becoming rarer these days.
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Unread 01-05-2010, 08:24 PM   #15
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Oh I looked And the volt reg has a ground wire ran from the case is that bad or alright
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