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Unread 03-01-2013, 08:45 AM   #76
CSP
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Yes, the computer controls the timing now. You set it to zero and the computer takes it from there.

I've pointed you to the Binderbulletin site and you've rebuffed it based on thinking it's for IH only, but there's a ton of info in this link that you could use. There's a link for converting the Duraspark distributor and one for initial setup procedures as well. You've got the basics of the TBI setup, but are missing some critical knowledge. At least have a look at the links contained in this one as I'm sure there's more things you haven't thought to ask about in this thread.

http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=47254

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Unread 03-01-2013, 11:49 AM   #77
Jon In Tucson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSP View Post
Yes, the computer controls the timing now. You set it to zero and the computer takes it from there.

I've pointed you to the Binderbulletin site and you've rebuffed it based on thinking it's for IH only, but there's a ton of info in this link that you could use. There's a link for converting the Duraspark distributor and one for initial setup procedures as well. You've got the basics of the TBI setup, but are missing some critical knowledge. At least have a look at the links contained in this one as I'm sure there's more things you haven't thought to ask about in this thread.

http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=47254
X2. I strongly recommend what CSP said...

Mike, since you are using the GM module, the ECM will control the spark timing electronically. If there is any mechanical or vacuum timing advance, the ecm cannot override it. That is one of the run-ability problems you are experiencing.
It appears that you are at a crossroads. Either modify the current Duraspark distributor to be controlled by the GM ignition module and ECM, or use the Ford style ignition module with mechanical and vacuum advance. If you choose the latter you will need a tach filter to interface the Duraspark signal with the ECM.
If it were me, I would modify the existing distributor. I did it and it only took about 30 minutes and I didn't have to take the distributor out of the engine. God bless.
Jon In Tucson
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Unread 03-02-2013, 11:57 AM   #78
motormike24
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sounds good and thank u all so much! i have the jeep running great as of now. fried the ignition module by accidently hooking the coil primaries up backwards, but got a new module and it runs great. i have blocked off the vacuum advance as of now, and with the timing set at 10 degrees it runs fine, except stumbles hard at low rpms with a load on it (eg. taking off in first gear), which im fairly certain is due to the mechanical advance not being eliminated yet as you all were telling me. so that will be my next task. the only other thing i havent quite figured out yet is which wire i either need to add or splice a disconnect plugin for setting base timing to the ecm... but i will figure it out eventually. it at least starts on its own every time now and the duraspark module is 100% eliminated. so thanks again for all that help. it saved me many migraines and a bottle of asprin :P
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Unread 03-02-2013, 05:17 PM   #79
Jon In Tucson
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Here ya go!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon In Tucson View Post
The wire that travels from D5 on the ECM and goes to "C" terminal on the GM 7 pin spark module.
Look at post #70. God bless.
Jon In Tucson
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Unread 03-03-2013, 06:29 PM   #80
motormike24
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so ive found and installed a disconnectable connector for the ignition bypass wire, which as im understanding is the tan with black tracer from computer to ignition module. however, it does nothing when i disconnect it. warm or cold, no change. it fires up great, idles super high (around 2000 rpm) for a few moments, then the iac seems to attempt to bring it down to an idle, and instead it seems to drop too far, like 400 rpms or a little less, to the point where it nearly dies, but struggles a bit til it throws it back up to 2000 rpms or so, and it repeats that about 4 or 5 times and then it will go down to around 1400 or 1500 and stay there til it warms up more. and when it idles close to normal, the timing light shows 0 degrees, which is where it should be. it just acts like its too advanced to handle it so it idles way higher again. GRRR. ive even bypassed both mechanical and vacuum advance at this point. im lost again.
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Unread 03-03-2013, 06:59 PM   #81
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It's got to learn its start cycles. Just keep starting it cold a lot and warm a lot it it will get it.

The 258 is not what the program was set for so it must learn those responses and settings.
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Unread 03-03-2013, 08:02 PM   #82
Jon In Tucson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motormike24 View Post
so ive found and installed a disconnectable connector for the ignition bypass wire, which as im understanding is the tan with black tracer from computer to ignition module. however, it does nothing when i disconnect it. warm or cold, no change. it fires up great, idles super high (around 2000 rpm) for a few moments, then the iac seems to attempt to bring it down to an idle, and instead it seems to drop too far, like 400 rpms or a little less, to the point where it nearly dies, but struggles a bit til it throws it back up to 2000 rpms or so, and it repeats that about 4 or 5 times and then it will go down to around 1400 or 1500 and stay there til it warms up more. and when it idles close to normal, the timing light shows 0 degrees, which is where it should be. it just acts like its too advanced to handle it so it idles way higher again. GRRR. ive even bypassed both mechanical and vacuum advance at this point. im lost again.
If you have 0* timing with the bypass wire disconnected, that is good. That is what you're looking for. After turning off the engine, reconnecting the bypass, starting again, are the symptoms you describe still happening?

I have copied and pasted the IAC reset and minimum idle speed and the TPS voltage setting procedures from the Injection tech forum found on binderplanet.com. I would follow those procedures before doing much else, It will result in a lot less heartburn, I know, I been there...

2. IAC reset/min idle speed- This sets the throttle plate on the throttle body to a specific rpm. I recommend about 500 rpm for most engines. A little common sense goes a long way. Obviously a cold engine will not properly idle when you disconnect the idle control. So ensure your engine is up to temp prior to setting the min idle speed.
Procedures- Go to sheet 7 of the pinout diagrams. At the top is the ALDL connector. You need to put a jumper between pins A and B of the connector. These are pins A9(wht/blk) and A12 (blk/wht) on the ECM. This puts the ECM into aldl mode. Turn the key on (not start) and the IAC should drive completely closed. You will normally hear a buzzing from the IAC. If you have the winaldl up and running on your laptop, you should see the IAC went from 145 to 0. Now unplug the IAC connector. turn the key off. Remove jumper. Start motor. If the idle is too low you may have to keep it running. On the front drivers side of the throttle body is the adjustment screw. It may be behind a silver plug. If so just use a nail or punch to poke it and remove it. Then use a #20 torx bit to adjust the idle speed to at least 100 rpm less then your warm idle speed. if 600 then set to 500 rpm. You are looking for the lowest consistant idle your motor will do. When set, turn off motor and reconnect the IAC. I try to keep the IAC count to about 40 with the motor warm and idling. If the counts drop to 0 then the IAC can no longer adjust the idle down.

This is a good time to verify the operation of the IAC. When the jumper is in and the key is on the IAC is driven closed. So while it is idling to set min rpm put a finger over the IAC port just above the IAC. There should be no air being sucked in and you should be able to see the pintle on the IAC.
When the IAC is connected and operating there should be a small amount of air being sucked in the port at idle and should increase as you apply some throttle.

3. TPS-throttle position sensor. With the idle set, you need to now set the TPS. This need to be set to about .54V. I normally shoot for about .6V.
The TPS is on the passengers side and will have 2 screws holding it on. The factory TPS will not have much room in the holes for adjustments so I use a drill bit or file to elongate the holes as needed. To adjust, just loosen the screws and trist the TPS. You can monitor the voltage on Pin B of the connector with the key on or at pin C13 of the ECM. You can also see it on the sensors tab of winaldl!! Anything away from .54V will also show as a percent of throttle. Such as .2 percent or 1.7 percent...depending on how far from .54 you are. I try to keep the idle setting to within 1 percent.
This is also a good time to check your TPS. Once it is set, just watch the voltage as you open the throttle. you should see a steady rise in voltage up to about 4.5-5V at WOT-wide open throttle. If it jumps up and down or skips some then you may want to replace it.

A big thanks to Billusn-1 at Binderplanet.com for maintaining this information.
God bless.
Jon In Tucson
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panic." - Mike

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Unread 03-03-2013, 08:45 PM   #83
motormike24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon In Tucson View Post
If you have 0* timing with the bypass wire disconnected, that is good. That is what you're looking for. After turning off the engine, reconnecting the bypass, starting again, are the symptoms you describe still happening?

I have copied and pasted the IAC reset and minimum idle speed and the TPS voltage setting procedures from the Injection tech forum found on binderplanet.com. I would follow those procedures before doing much else, It will result in a lot less heartburn, I know, I been there...

2. IAC reset/min idle speed- This sets the throttle plate on the throttle body to a specific rpm. I recommend about 500 rpm for most engines. A little common sense goes a long way. Obviously a cold engine will not properly idle when you disconnect the idle control. So ensure your engine is up to temp prior to setting the min idle speed.
Procedures- Go to sheet 7 of the pinout diagrams. At the top is the ALDL connector. You need to put a jumper between pins A and B of the connector. These are pins A9(wht/blk) and A12 (blk/wht) on the ECM. This puts the ECM into aldl mode. Turn the key on (not start) and the IAC should drive completely closed. You will normally hear a buzzing from the IAC. If you have the winaldl up and running on your laptop, you should see the IAC went from 145 to 0. Now unplug the IAC connector. turn the key off. Remove jumper. Start motor. If the idle is too low you may have to keep it running. On the front drivers side of the throttle body is the adjustment screw. It may be behind a silver plug. If so just use a nail or punch to poke it and remove it. Then use a #20 torx bit to adjust the idle speed to at least 100 rpm less then your warm idle speed. if 600 then set to 500 rpm. You are looking for the lowest consistant idle your motor will do. When set, turn off motor and reconnect the IAC. I try to keep the IAC count to about 40 with the motor warm and idling. If the counts drop to 0 then the IAC can no longer adjust the idle down.

This is a good time to verify the operation of the IAC. When the jumper is in and the key is on the IAC is driven closed. So while it is idling to set min rpm put a finger over the IAC port just above the IAC. There should be no air being sucked in and you should be able to see the pintle on the IAC.
When the IAC is connected and operating there should be a small amount of air being sucked in the port at idle and should increase as you apply some throttle.

3. TPS-throttle position sensor. With the idle set, you need to now set the TPS. This need to be set to about .54V. I normally shoot for about .6V.
The TPS is on the passengers side and will have 2 screws holding it on. The factory TPS will not have much room in the holes for adjustments so I use a drill bit or file to elongate the holes as needed. To adjust, just loosen the screws and trist the TPS. You can monitor the voltage on Pin B of the connector with the key on or at pin C13 of the ECM. You can also see it on the sensors tab of winaldl!! Anything away from .54V will also show as a percent of throttle. Such as .2 percent or 1.7 percent...depending on how far from .54 you are. I try to keep the idle setting to within 1 percent.
This is also a good time to check your TPS. Once it is set, just watch the voltage as you open the throttle. you should see a steady rise in voltage up to about 4.5-5V at WOT-wide open throttle. If it jumps up and down or skips some then you may want to replace it.

A big thanks to Billusn-1 at Binderplanet.com for maintaining this information.
God bless.
Jon In Tucson
i do not have any way to hook my laptop to the car... nor the cash for the software.
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Unread 03-04-2013, 07:55 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motormike24 View Post
i do not have any way to hook my laptop to the car... nor the cash for the software.
The software is free http://winaldl.joby.se/
There is also a schematic to make the connector for about $7.00 in parts. I picked up a very old laptop to have a db9 port at Goodwill for $10.00. The battery was shot but I use the cigarette lighter to power it.

Also what ECM do you have? Your OP says you pulled it out of a 92 Blazer. That came with both the 1227747 and 16147060 and maybe others. I got mine out of a 91 G20 van and it had 16144288 and I found some of the color codes did not match up to what was available on the web. The pinouts were the same so you might need to trace your timing disc to that.

My suggestion is now that you have the distributor locked down, complete a voltage check, you don't need a computer just a digital volt meter and you can get them at harbor freight for $5.00. Then perform the initial system set up. http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/s...737#post345737
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Unread 03-04-2013, 08:55 AM   #85
Matt1981CJ7
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I'm wondering if the OP ever regrets not getting a new carb, or rebuilding the old one?

What a nightmare this conversion has been....

Good luck, man.

Matt
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Unread 03-04-2013, 09:38 AM   #86
Jon In Tucson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motormike24 View Post
i do not have any way to hook my laptop to the car... nor the cash for the software.
Mike, It's not necessary to use your laptop to perform the above mentioned voltage checks. A multimeter will work just fine. The laptop running winaldl will just confirm that what you are seeing with the multimeter is the same the ECM is seeing. Nothing more, nothing less. Also, as pointed out by Jeepardy, if your ECM is not the '7747 series, that can cause some difficulties. They can be overcome, however. Just keep to the basics, as this is a pretty simple and bullet proof system. God bless.
Jon In Tucson
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"The secret to a Jeep, especially a CJ, is you can't
panic." - Mike

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Unread 03-04-2013, 02:49 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Matt1981CJ7 View Post
I'm wondering if the OP ever regrets not getting a new carb, or rebuilding the old one?

What a nightmare this conversion has been....

Good luck, man.

Matt
id rather do this conversion over again 4 times be4 id ever consider a carb again. both the carter carb and the brand new motorcraft 2100 or whatever that was sposed to fix the crappy carb were both garbage. no matter how you tried to tune them, they WOULDNT run worth a ****. in fact the motorcraft carb caused massive detonation and burned up cylinder 6 piston after 200 miles on a completely professionally rebuilt engine. so yea, carb is bad news. its got over 4000 miles on this rebuild since we did the conversion, and yes its got issues, but when it runs, it runs perfect. never ever seen a carb do that. must be some of you guys are much better with carbs than me.
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Unread 03-04-2013, 03:04 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motormike24 View Post
id rather do this conversion over again 4 times be4 id ever consider a carb again. both the carter carb and the brand new motorcraft 2100 or whatever that was sposed to fix the crappy carb were both garbage. no matter how you tried to tune them, they WOULDNT run worth a ****. in fact the motorcraft carb caused massive detonation and burned up cylinder 6 piston after 200 miles on a completely professionally rebuilt engine. so yea, carb is bad news. its got over 4000 miles on this rebuild since we did the conversion, and yes its got issues, but when it runs, it runs perfect. never ever seen a carb do that. must be some of you guys are much better with carbs than me.
Wow, sorry if I ruffled your feathers.

FYI, engines ran fine on carburetors for decades before FI ever came along. I suspect your carb problems were user error, not the carbs.

Could you explain exactly how your Motorcraft carb "caused massive detonation", please? I'd love to hear about that.

Matt
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Unread 03-04-2013, 05:05 PM   #89
motormike24
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Originally Posted by Matt1981CJ7 View Post
Wow, sorry if I ruffled your feathers.

FYI, engines ran fine on carburetors for decades before FI ever cam along. I suspect your carb problems were user error, not the carbs.

Could you explain exactly how your Motorcraft carb "caused massive detonation", please? I'd love to hear about that.

Matt
you are right, carbs have been doing fine forever, i build lots of high power drag racing engines every year that run 650 and 700 cfm carbs all day long. however, this jeep has soured my faith in carbs. how it happened is after 3 different carburetor shops attempted to tune the motocraft carb on the first rebuilt engine, they all claimed they could not get it to run right. and it indeed ran like ****. less than 200 miles into the engine break in we ended up with piston from cylidner 6 having a hole melted through it from the top all the way through the piston rings and into the wristpin. even the machine shop said it was extreme detonation that caused it. no other pistons were hurt, and the guy told us it was very likely a bad carb that burned it. that carb ran exactly as bad as the original junk carter carb did. it was very hard to start, and when it did start it smoked badly and had many misfires, and in order to take off in 1st gear you'd have to rev it up beyond 2000 to 2500 rpms to keep it from stalling before it got moving. regardless of how lean or rich the mixture was set to. certain ways it would smoke badly (very rich), and other ways it would not smoke at all (very lean). but for the last 100 miles of that engine's life, it was set fairly rich, which should have had the opposite effect of detonation, as that is generally caused by an extreme lean condition. however, as of an hour ago, i have everything running perfect on this TBI setup. its base timing is set at 0, it idles around 1000 to 1100 when warm, and the injectors send fuel every time at initial cranking. the only issue now is that since i havent yet got the wiring pigtail to hook up the dual purpose speed sensor (so i can still use cable speedo and hook the computer into it as well) to the computer. so if i try to burn out in first it bogs for a moment then takes off. otherwise i can run around town all day long idling in 2nd or 3rd gear no problem. thanks again to all you guys for your help, it definately helped me understand how this primitive system works. in the near future i plan to wire in the aldl connector and check engine light circuit, as well as create/obtain an obd1 usb cable. but as i stated before, id never again run a carb on one of these engines again. definately worth the headache ive been thru.
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Unread 03-04-2013, 05:17 PM   #90
Matt1981CJ7
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It's interesting that you claim to build racing engines, yet you had a shop tune your Jeep's engine.

It's equally interesting that you think a carb can cause one cylinder to detonate, considering your vast racing engine experience.

Matt
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