What would you do in this situation? - JeepForum.com
Search  
Sign Up   Today's Posts
User: Pass: Remember?
Advertise Here
Jeep Home Jeep Forum Jeep Classifieds Jeep Registry JeepSpace Jeep Reviews Jeep Gallery Jeep Clubs Jeep Groups Jeep Videos Jeep Events Jeep Articles
Go Back JeepForum.com > General > General Discussion > What would you do in this situation?

Ford Explorer 8.8 4340 Chromoly Axle Shaft Kit C Clip ElimSave 17.76% for the 4th of july with ruffstuff specialtiesThe Ruffstuff Optima Battery Box!

Reply
Unread 05-30-2015, 07:42 PM   #1
Irish-n-Zwack
Registered User
2002 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: At the Beach in the PacNW :-)
Posts: 55
What would you do in this situation?

Hi;

We find ourselves in a curious situation. Here in Lincoln City, there are 2 vehicle access roads onto the beach. One is near our house, on NW 15th, and the other is at NW 35th. I am going to ask/talk about the access on NW 35th.

According to John Allen, who is "Coastal Region Manager" for Oregon State Parks and Recreation Department, it is fully legal to use the access at NW 35th, even though Lincoln City doesn't maintain the access. If you can get down it, and back up again, you're legal-beagle to do so, according to this man.

Which we have done a few times in both of my Jeeps. This time, another local-yokel, like ourselves, complained like hell and called the cops, because, even after looking at the letter from Mr. Allen, which we had printed out and laminated, just for such occasions, as no one else seemed to realize this was a vehicle access point, he didn't think it was "right". Z (my husband) talked to a Sgt. on the phone, explaining that he had this letter in-hand from the man who manages ALL of Oregon's beaches, saying that we are legally allowed to use that access point at our own risk, of course, since the city doesn't maintain the access. The Sgt. was a rude a$$, insisted he knew better and that HIS rules superseded that of the State of Oregon and its administrative rule, and sent a cop out to the beach.

Officer Gould, a very nice and polite man, came. We showed him the letter from Mr. Allen, and he agreed with us that we were probably legally within our rights to use that access point. That we had done nothing wrong, and that he was not going to enforce any complaints by people who didn't care for our use of the access. We gave him our name and contact info, as well as that of Mr. Allen, and he passed it on to his Sgt. Officer Gould emailed Mr. Allen for clarification, and to explain that the City had closed that access 15 years previously because of deep sand (and it IS deep--even in 4wd with hubs locked, it can be challenging) that was causing every john, dick, and harry in their ricers to get stuck. There IS signage to that effect--"no motor vehicles beyond this point"--and this was the only area which worried Officer Gould. Fair enough, considering that he says he won't be enforcing it--but still, according to the State of Oregon's administrative rule, and Mr. John Allen, it IS legal for us to use that access point, no matter what the City says.

So, my husband volunteered (much to my consternation, as I loved the challenge of getting onto and back off of the sandy beach at that access ), that we would not use that access until either 1) Lincoln City concedes that the access is legal and that they have no right to stop OR ticket anyone who uses that point to drive onto the beach, or 2) the State changes its administrative rule about that one particular access point along all of Oregon's beaches--a process which takes months. BTW, we weren't ticketed--or even warned. Officer Gould stated that he believes we were in the right as far as he could tell, and that he wouldn't enforce any City gripes about people who use that access via their vehicles. The man who called the cops stomped off, swearing to make this a big issue within the city gov't.

So, my question is, what is the right and best thing to do in this situation? Our own hands are tied at this point, as my husband gave his word that we wouldn't use that access until the City and the State came to consensus, OR one or the other entity conceded to the other in this matter.

If it were you, what would you do? What is the right thing, in your opinion? Use the access until/unless it becomes definitively illegal to do so, or wait, perhaps for months or longer, to see if the State decides to close that access, OR, the City decides that their closure is incorrect, and removes their objections to use of this access point?

I'm interested to see what others think. Neither of us is inclined to be combative with the City (after all, we DO live here in this small town!) while we wait for their or the State of Oregon's decision one way or the other, but we WOULD love to be able to use this access point, legally. My husband has once again emailed John Allen, to see what he has to say about the current situation. We don't expect to hear from him until next week (first week in June), as he is a state employee, and he doesn't work weekends.

__________________
"In the end, only kindness matters."
Irish-n-Zwack is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 05-31-2015, 02:16 AM   #2
MurdaJs
Registered User
1996 ZJ 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Woods
Posts: 2,814
Bury the complainer under the sand

It should help with traction issues
__________________
96 SCT tuned 5.2, NV3500, 231, Hp30 TrueTrac 3-link, 8.8 Lokka Double Tri 4-link, Coilovers
98 5.9
MurdaJs is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 05-31-2015, 07:44 AM   #3
HELMET
Registered User
2006 LJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: All Over
Posts: 368
I would make sure that the city posted the sign. The person that complained may have done it to keep people from using it. I had the police called on me for trespassing on a piece of ground that I own. It turned out that a neighbor to my property wanted his own hunting grounds and put up a bunch of signs.
HELMET is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 05-31-2015, 09:30 AM   #4
Irish-n-Zwack
Registered User
2002 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: At the Beach in the PacNW :-)
Posts: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by HELMET View Post
I would make sure that the city posted the sign. The person that complained may have done it to keep people from using it. I had the police called on me for trespassing on a piece of ground that I own. It turned out that a neighbor to my property wanted his own hunting grounds and put up a bunch of signs.
What a nasty neighbor you have. I hope the police set him straight after they visited you.

I will check to make sure the City posted the signs. They certainly look legal, and similar signs are posted on other beaches with potential beach access all over the 7 1/2 mile stretch of beach that is within Lincoln City boundaries. Thanks for a good suggestion.
__________________
"In the end, only kindness matters."
Irish-n-Zwack is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 05-31-2015, 09:50 AM   #5
Irish-n-Zwack
Registered User
2002 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: At the Beach in the PacNW :-)
Posts: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by MurdaJs View Post
Bury the complainer under the sand

It should help with traction issues
LOL! Now, why didn't WE think of that?!
__________________
"In the end, only kindness matters."
Irish-n-Zwack is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 05-31-2015, 04:26 PM   #6
PM Thor
Super Duper Guy
 
PM Thor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Banging your head against a wall uses 150 calories an hour
Posts: 1,280
All that has to be figured out here is who has jurisdiction. Since the city admits they don't maintain the access point, it's obvious (at least to me) that jurisdiction lies with the Oregon State Parks and Recreation Department.
__________________
During Awards shows, why do they show reaction shots of Daft Punk?
PM Thor is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 05-31-2015, 05:07 PM   #7
Irish-n-Zwack
Registered User
2002 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: At the Beach in the PacNW :-)
Posts: 55
My husband's research seems to suggest that the State Oregon Administrative Rules has jurisdiction over any City and County Zoning Ordinances, as well as any other City and County agencies/plans/ordinances in this area. We've actually emailed a few people (the City attorney, a couple of State people) who should have a definitive answer, but, we printed out info from a breakout session at the state level entitled, "Land Use, Easements, Rights-of-Way, and Licenses". In section D, it outlines the "Policy Hierarchy in Oregon Land Use Law". OARs are #3 in the hierarchy. City things start at #5, as well as #6. The only thing below them in the hierarchy is Case Law interpreting all of the other things.

We shall see what happens.
__________________
"In the end, only kindness matters."
Irish-n-Zwack is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 05-31-2015, 08:51 PM   #8
TSEJEEPERS
Registered User
1993 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Morton IL
Posts: 5,188
I would have turned around when I saw the sign.
There is another access area. Use it.
__________________
93 YJ SOA 2" springs front, XJ springs rear w/main leaf added, High pinon 9 inch rear detroit locker front Dana 44 ARB 4.56 Gears, 36 inch Irok tires too much to list. www.mijc.org
TSEJEEPERS is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 05-31-2015, 10:50 PM   #9
MurdaJs
Registered User
1996 ZJ 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Woods
Posts: 2,814
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish-n-Zwack View Post
What a nasty neighbor you have. I hope the police set him straight after they visited you.

I will check to make sure the City posted the signs. They certainly look legal, and similar signs are posted on other beaches with potential beach access all over the 7 1/2 mile stretch of beach that is within Lincoln City boundaries. Thanks for a good suggestion.
Pretty sure that any legal signs need to cite the penal code/ordinance that it represents, usually in small letters near the bottom
__________________
96 SCT tuned 5.2, NV3500, 231, Hp30 TrueTrac 3-link, 8.8 Lokka Double Tri 4-link, Coilovers
98 5.9
MurdaJs is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 06-01-2015, 10:25 AM   #10
Ironhead
Registered User
2003 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Westchester, Illinois
Posts: 3,751
this is the kind of stuff that makes me hate people. currently going through a childish issue with parking at a local condo association. no need for an issue, but some people are very childish.

i wouldnt care after i got the doc from the state, but in being a decent person, is there a reason that you guys dont want to use the one thats closer to your house on NM15?
Ironhead is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 06-01-2015, 01:35 PM   #11
Irish-n-Zwack
Registered User
2002 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: At the Beach in the PacNW :-)
Posts: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironhead View Post
this is the kind of stuff that makes me hate people. currently going through a childish issue with parking at a local condo association. no need for an issue, but some people are very childish.

i wouldnt care after i got the doc from the state, but in being a decent person, is there a reason that you guys dont want to use the one thats closer to your house on NM15?
We usually DO use the one by our house, but some days--nice weekends and holidays, for example, it can get so crowded, there, that there is no room for even one more vehicle to park there. In fact, many go FAR beyond the signs stating "no vehicles beyond this point" (which, btw, is never enforced) due to the crowding. I don't care to do that, while weaving through close-packed vehicles and dozens of small children and dogs. Even if the City takes down their signs saying "no vehicles" at the NW 35th access point, a LOT--in fact, MOST of the vehicles that use the 15th St access point won't be able to even get onto the beach at NW 35th. One really needs a 4 wd vehicle with decent clearance to even get down the short "road" (more like a foot path, nowadays), and once you're there, the sand is DEEP, even in Winter. Likely, it would not ever be nearly as crowded, even on the most tourist-filled days and seasons, as 15th Street gets on a regular basis.

Just a fyi, too: At the 15th St. access point, the signage clearly states that only street-legal vehicles driven by licensed drivers are allowed to drive on the beach, there. So no ATVs, etc. at that point. I'm sure that the same would happen at the 35th St. access, should the City concede to the State's OARs.
__________________
"In the end, only kindness matters."
Irish-n-Zwack is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 06-01-2015, 02:11 PM   #12
Irish-n-Zwack
Registered User
2002 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: At the Beach in the PacNW :-)
Posts: 55
UPDATE:

Just got this reply from John Allen:

From: ALLEN John * OPRD [mailto:John.Allen@oregon.gov]
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2015 12:54 PM
To: ****
Subject: RE: Questions about the Ocean Shore again...

"I have directed the Beach Ranger for that section to remove the "vehicles prohibited" signs, and we are ordering new signs to place on the beach both north and south 150 feet from access "no vehicles past this sign". Signs may take a while to get but hopefully within 30 days. I will also notify Officer Gould of Lincoln City, and Lincoln City Manager."

YAY! We are correct, and didn't do anything wrong. The City is going to have to take down those signs, and put new signs up on the beach stating where legal access is on the beach, itself. AND the police officer will receive the same information, to pass onto his boss. To say I'm pleased is an understatement :-).
__________________
"In the end, only kindness matters."
Irish-n-Zwack is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 06-01-2015, 05:00 PM   #13
Ironhead
Registered User
2003 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Westchester, Illinois
Posts: 3,751
success, good work
Ironhead is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 06-01-2015, 09:38 PM   #14
Irish-n-Zwack
Registered User
2002 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: At the Beach in the PacNW :-)
Posts: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironhead View Post
success, good work
Thank you . All the kudos should go to my husband, who did all the work contacting people to get information. All I did was drive Beast onto the beach :-).
__________________
"In the end, only kindness matters."
Irish-n-Zwack is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 06-02-2015, 08:13 AM   #15
Kuntryboy816
Registered User
1989 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Newark, Dela"where"
Posts: 690
I think my next step would be to contact the Chief and file a complaint against the Sgt. It's clear that he needs to be reminded exactly who he works for, what his job is and the limits of his authority. Congrats on getting the clarification you needed!
__________________
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing! -E. Burke
Kuntryboy816 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the JeepForum.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid e-mail address for yourself.
Note: All free e-mails have been banned due to mis-use. (Yahoo, Gmail, Hotmail, etc.)
Don't have a non-free e-mail address? Click here for a solution: Manual Account Creation
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.


Thread Tools






Jeep, Wrangler, Cherokee, Grand Cherokee, and other models are copyrighted and trademarked to Jeep/Chrysler Corporation. JeepForum.com is not in any way associated with Jeep or the Chrysler Corp.