Separation between Church and State - Page 9 - JeepForum.com
Search  
Sign Up   Today's Posts
User: Pass: Remember?
Advertise Here
Jeep Home Jeep Forum Jeep Classifieds Jeep Registry JeepSpace Jeep Reviews Jeep Gallery Jeep Clubs Jeep Groups Jeep Videos Jeep Events Jeep Articles
Go Back JeepForum.com > General > General Discussion > Separation between Church and State

Introducing MONSTALINER™ UV Permanent DIY Roll On Bed LineRuffstuff Axle Simple Swap Kit!ROCK BOTTOM prices on LIFT KITS at Rockridge4wd!! WANT TO

Reply
Unread 01-04-2008, 08:26 PM   #121
Mike Cooper
Registered User
1998 ZJ 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Kelowna, BC, Canada
Posts: 543
Ok, I dont want you to think I am attacking you personally, sorry. perhaps those were assumptions about you 2, however, I would say that assumption goes for the majority of the western world. Its funny that both of you were raised catholic, which I believe is what causes most of the back lash against christianity. Thier take on it IMO is completely wrong, and they do like to force thier opinions on people, as appose to having conversations, or good debates like this. I can go on and on about what I think is wrong about it, but I am not here to critisize how certain people take it.

Gravity is mechanical, we can calculate it, but it is a bit of a phenomenon, I dont get at were your going with this?

So you would say you believe in a God, but not the God of the bible? I do find it funny how alot of people pick and choose what they like and dislike about religion. They want to believe in a heaven, but not in hell for instance, because that wouls suck. The one thing that seperates us from other religions is that we have a God that came near in human form, and we have a God that doesnt say we need to earn salvation. So no, you dont need to know everything to believe in it, but if you believe in a God, should you not find out why? Where it comes from?

Mike Cooper is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 01-04-2008, 08:33 PM   #122
Kyoseki
Inconceivable!
 
Kyoseki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: A wretched hive of scum and villainy
Posts: 6,179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Cooper
So you would say you believe in a God, but not the God of the bible? I do find it funny how alot of people pick and choose what they like and dislike about religion.
You are aware that not everyone who believes in a God believes in YOUR God, right?

I only ask because it seems like there's a pervasive assumption that a belief in God automatically makes you Christian and it just isn't so. Other religions are not simply Christianity in disguise, Buddha and Shiva are not simply different names for your God and they all have radically different ideas about Heaven and Hell.

I don't believe in either Heaven or Hell? Why? Because both of them require eternal life and the problem with eternal life is that sooner or later, any kind of existence becomes Hell.

Think about it, you have forever, sooner or later you will get bored of EVERYTHING and yet there's no end to it. You will have been everywhere and done everything you can think of and yet there's still an eternity left, about the best you can hope for is that you go mad so you don't have to think about it.
__________________
Due to lack of interest, tomorrow has been canceled
Kyoseki is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 01-04-2008, 08:53 PM   #123
Mike Cooper
Registered User
1998 ZJ 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Kelowna, BC, Canada
Posts: 543
Yes, thier are many false Gods out there, but not one has any facts to support them. Sure, we dont have 100% proof of creation, but we have some proof leading to our God. We have historical evidence that lines up with the bible, we have countless predictions in the bible that have come true about Jesus, and history from before Jesus, to almost current day. We have some things that have come to light in the last 10-20 years that were fortold in the bible. We even have predictions of the war in the east, and how that had been shaping, I am by no means a profit, but When you study it, its all leading right to revelations. its simply mind blowing.

No other religion has any of that. Ones like Buddah were simply some guy who had great philosophies on life, and wanted to make himself a God, yet had no proof backing himself up as a God. Thier are other religions that have borrowed from Christianity, but have recieved mis interpritaions, or have had false profits mislead them into other directions, again, another prophicy fulfilled.

A far as heaven and eternal life, I cannot even think of what it would be like. you think because its forever, you would get bored after a while, but for all we know, time may not exist. Like God who transends time, heaven might be the same, Other than revelations, We have not been given much information on what its like, and I cannot think that anything I have learned on earth would prepare me for it.
Mike Cooper is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 01-04-2008, 09:00 PM   #124
Kyoseki
Inconceivable!
 
Kyoseki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: A wretched hive of scum and villainy
Posts: 6,179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Cooper
Yes, thier are many false Gods out there, but not one has any facts to support them.
Apart from say, Judaism or Islam, who are, you know, the same God as you only not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Cooper
Sure, we dont have 100% proof of creation, but we have some proof leading to our God. We have historical evidence that lines up with the bible, we have countless predictions in the bible that have come true about Jesus, and history from before Jesus, to almost current day. We have some things that have come to light in the last 10-20 years that were fortold in the bible. We even have predictions of the war in the east, and how that had been shaping, I am by no means a profit, but When you study it, its all leading right to revelations. its simply mind blowing.
Any historical correlation with the Bible is somewhat unsurprising since it was written back then.

As for portents and foretelling, examples please? Trouble in the Middle East? Really? You're telling me that's a prediction? Has there ever been a time when there wasn't fighting in the region over something?

I do know that depending on how you interpret some of his sayings, Buddha (not Buddah) came up with both microbiology and quantum mechanics,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Cooper
No other religion has any of that. Ones like Buddah were simply some guy who had great philosophies on life, and wanted to make himself a God, yet had no proof backing himself up as a God.
Buddha isn't God, may I suggest that you do some reading up on Buddhism before making statements like that
__________________
Due to lack of interest, tomorrow has been canceled
Kyoseki is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 01-04-2008, 09:35 PM   #125
Mike Cooper
Registered User
1998 ZJ 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Kelowna, BC, Canada
Posts: 543
Yes, judaism and Islam do have the same God, they just have other beliefs, the main being Christ, which is the center part of "Christ"ianity. Thier are many others that I didnt include which have the same God but have it realy wrong such as Jehovas Witness'. So yes many religions worship the same God, they just fail to see the part they need.

You think I would bring up something as trivial as war in the east as a prediction and leave it at that. It is far more complex than that. What about Isreal becomeing a nation again, who could have predicted that, everyone thought it was doubtfull. The bible even says it will not be the full country it once was, as some nations will not come back, which is exactly what happened. The bible even talked about the fall of Isreal before that.

As far as current history, it talks about nations from the east, creating northern alliances to defeat the worlds super power. Now this is up for interpritation, but was it not discovered that the terrorists have been communicating with Russia? That some of thier weapons came from russia? Up untill this all started on 9-11, would we not say that USA was on top of the world. AKA the worlds super power. I mean no harm in bringing this up, and by all means wish no one any harm, but when you look at all the bible has to say, its not hard to see what is coming next, its just a matter of when.

There is much more I dont remember off hand, I been reading so many books, and the bible, that its hard to retain all the information. But most of the bibles prophicies are not vivid minor things that you could simply chaulk up as coincidence.

And finally Buddha, sorry for the misspelling, that is my biggest downfall, I always try and re-read what I type to make sure its right. Your absolutly right, he is not a God, but he lifted himslef up high, and had people who worshiped him as such, and they still do, making him a false God. Either way, that doesnt discredit his findings of microbiology and quantum mechanics.
Mike Cooper is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 01-04-2008, 09:41 PM   #126
Kyoseki
Inconceivable!
 
Kyoseki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: A wretched hive of scum and villainy
Posts: 6,179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Cooper
As far as current history, it talks about nations from the east, creating northern alliances to defeat the worlds super power. Now this is up for interpritation, but was it not discovered that the terrorists have been communicating with Russia? That some of thier weapons came from russia? Up untill this all started on 9-11, would we not say that USA was on top of the world. AKA the worlds super power. I mean no harm in bringing this up, and by all means wish no one any harm, but when you look at all the bible has to say, its not hard to see what is coming next, its just a matter of when.
Well, I'm having a hard time believing the Russians are helping Islamic extremists, the Islamists hate them as much as they hate the West because of how the Russians dealt with Chechnya and of course lest we forget, that the Mujahideen were formed to kick the Russians out of Afghanistan, so I think it's pretty safe to say that anyone asserting that Russia is in league with Al Quaeda is smoking something.
__________________
Due to lack of interest, tomorrow has been canceled
Kyoseki is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 01-04-2008, 09:44 PM   #127
Mike Cooper
Registered User
1998 ZJ 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Kelowna, BC, Canada
Posts: 543
let me look into that again............I might have my facts mixed up, but i thought it was russia....
Mike Cooper is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 01-04-2008, 09:49 PM   #128
rockhopper
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: /lo-kashen/ a position or site occupied or available for occupancy or marked by some distinguishing feature
Posts: 311
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Cooper
Ones like Buddah were simply some guy who had great philosophies on life, and wanted to make himself a God, yet had no proof backing himself up as a God.
WHOA. In Buddhism, "Buddha" is a generic term for anyone who attains enlightenment. It is not the name of a person.

Siddhartha Gautama was the founder of Buddhism. You will sometimes see him referred to a "Buddha Gautama" or simply "Buddha" in the same way Catholic priests are called "Father" or some Christian ministers are called "Pastor." But, like priests, ministers, rabbis, and clerics, Gautama never claimed to be divine, nor do Buddhists consider him so. He is merely looked upon as the original leader and a great man, but not divine in any way.

Buddhism has no concept of divinity, a supreme being, or of a creator. It is for this reason that many (including myself) say Buddhism is not a religion but a belief system. It is also for this reason that you will find many clergymen and laypeople from other religions among lists of practicing Buddhists.
rockhopper is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 01-04-2008, 09:56 PM   #129
Mike Cooper
Registered User
1998 ZJ 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Kelowna, BC, Canada
Posts: 543
Here is a neat page I found concerning isreal.
http://100prophecies.org/page3.htm
Mike Cooper is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 01-04-2008, 10:01 PM   #130
rockhopper
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: /lo-kashen/ a position or site occupied or available for occupancy or marked by some distinguishing feature
Posts: 311
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Cooper
And finally Buddha, sorry for the misspelling, that is my biggest downfall, I always try and re-read what I type to make sure its right. Your absolutly right, he is not a God, but he lifted himslef up high, and had people who worshiped him as such, and they still do, making him a false God. Either way, that doesnt discredit his findings of microbiology and quantum mechanics.
This is one of Siddhartha's most famous quotes:

Believe nothing, no matter where you have read it, or who said it, even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own common sense.

I have a hard time believing that qualifies as "lifting himself up high."
rockhopper is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 01-04-2008, 10:22 PM   #131
rockhopper
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: /lo-kashen/ a position or site occupied or available for occupancy or marked by some distinguishing feature
Posts: 311
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Cooper
Here is a neat page I found concerning isreal.
http://100prophecies.org/page3.htm
The issue I have with these "prophecies" is that they are not the coincidences this site makes them out to be. Yes, those were written long before 1948, but then millions of people have been working for centuries to make them come true.

United Nations Resolution 181 wasn't created one night because Truman and Stalin got drunk:
Truman: You know what would be fun? Let's create a country!
Stalin: Where should we put it?
Truman: I don't know, do you have a dart and a map?
Stalin: Harry, you hit the middle East!
Truman: What should we call it?
Stalin: How about Azreal?
Truman: How do you spell that, oh nevermind, I'll just make it up.

Sarcastic, of course, but I'm trying to make a point. Palestine and Israel are where they are BECAUSE of the book, not coincidentially.

Let me put it another way. If I start a company to cure cancer (a noble cause I think we'd all agree) and I proclaim "We will cure cancer!" Then my company then goes on to cure cancer, will you proclaim me a prophet?
rockhopper is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 01-04-2008, 10:28 PM   #132
Mike Cooper
Registered User
1998 ZJ 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Kelowna, BC, Canada
Posts: 543
You can lift your self up high in the eye of people with out being errogant. You can do good deeds and things that make people thing very highly of you on purpose, with out being upfront about it. Any way, I dont recal this being a discussion about buddism.
Mike Cooper is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 01-04-2008, 10:38 PM   #133
rockhopper
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: /lo-kashen/ a position or site occupied or available for occupancy or marked by some distinguishing feature
Posts: 311
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Cooper
You can lift your self up high in the eye of people with out being errogant. You can do good deeds and things that make people thing very highly of you on purpose, with out being upfront about it. Any way, I dont recal this being a discussion about buddism.
That's true. It started as a discussion about why political candidates are pandering to the religious (that's an insult to them, not you, FTR). But we are a long way from the original intent of this thread, and the original poster is long gone, so I'd say about anything is fair game.
rockhopper is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 01-04-2008, 10:53 PM   #134
Mike Cooper
Registered User
1998 ZJ 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Kelowna, BC, Canada
Posts: 543
LOL. Ya, I seen we went way off topic here, and I thank the modertors for allowing us to continue, it has been a great conversation. Nothing personal. I have been talking about this debate with a few co-workers, and they were amazed it hasnt gotten down to name calling and a flame war yet which most of those topics do. I think it shows the intelect of everyone involved in it so far. But it seems the conversation is slowing down, if you wish to keep going great if not, nice talking with you guys.

On a last note, here is something i found on the net about the russia thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiQD_...eature=related
Mike Cooper is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 01-04-2008, 11:17 PM   #135
Kyoseki
Inconceivable!
 
Kyoseki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: A wretched hive of scum and villainy
Posts: 6,179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Cooper
On a last note, here is something i found on the net about the russia thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiQD_...eature=related
Well aside from the fact Hagee is promoting his own book, it's a pretty far stretch to conclude that Meshech (mentioned in Ezekiel 38-39) is Russia, more likely it refers to Georgia (the former Soviet republic, not the state) which is just north of Armenia and so actually within the known world at the time of the Bible's writing.

Assuming that Meshech means Russia is just a typical bending of prophecy (and believe me, I'm not putting Christianity in that bracket by itself, every belief system is guilty of it) to fit the current state of affairs.

The other tribe mentioned in Ezekiel 38-39 evidently equates to modern day Spain, are they ganging up with the Iranians? After the Madrid train bombings, I'm doubting it.

Finally, Ezekiel 38-39 makes mention of a single prince of both Tubal (Spain) and Mechech (supposedly Russia), is there one? Is there one guy who claims to rule both countries? I doubt it, unless maybe you mean Ban Ki Moon maybe and then you'd have to implicate the entire UN, not just those two countries.

Of course both the tribes of Tubal and Meschech (and Magog who is also mentioned in 38-39) are all supposedly kin (the three tribal lords are grandsons of Noah apparently) and they all lie to the north of the known world, so it seems that this Ezekiel bloke just seemed to have a problem with Northerners.
__________________
Due to lack of interest, tomorrow has been canceled
Kyoseki is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the JeepForum.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid e-mail address for yourself.
Note: All free e-mails have been banned due to mis-use. (Yahoo, Gmail, Hotmail, etc.)
Don't have a non-free e-mail address? Click here for a solution: Manual Account Creation
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.


Thread Tools


Suggested Threads





Jeep, Wrangler, Cherokee, Grand Cherokee, and other models are copyrighted and trademarked to Jeep/Chrysler Corporation. JeepForum.com is not in any way associated with Jeep or the Chrysler Corp.