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Unread 12-31-2007, 03:14 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PJL
How about you just post the text of the letter and let people interpret the meaning for themselves?
Thanks for posting both the text of the letter and his drafts. Folks just don't speak that way any longer. Perhaps, a good thing, for me anyway.

I guess I look at the "wall" between church and state as a "retaining wall", not a wall that stands evenly between two sides. As to SCOTUS precedent, we'll see what transpires in the future as the composition of the court changes and new cases come before them. Return of school prayer perhaps? Leaving abortion up to the states? We'll see...

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Unread 12-31-2007, 04:23 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Cooper
OK, I think I will get alot of oposition on this one, but here I go...
(saving space... )...
I will leave it with that last sentence. If you would like any information that might educate you, or maybe you think your educated enough, and would like to have a little ongoing debate, please give me a PM. No worries of me getting offended, I love debates. I just would not like to have a flame war start here as I am newer here, like this site, and would not like to cause problems

good post... and
welcome


btw... too bad your new... ya missed a good one (faith thread) awhile back.




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Unread 12-31-2007, 05:13 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Cooper
OK, I think I will get alot of oposition on this one, but here I go.

I think its funny how almost everyone who is an athiest (IE, doesnt believe in a God) is so harsh against Christianity, and not any other religion. They will have tolerence for most other religions, but get thier back up against Christians. I also think its extremely FUNNY ( I cap it cause I really want to express I am NOT mad, but beside myself in laughter) that So many people bash Christianity in complete ignorance. They turn thier back on it simply because they know if they believe, they now have someone to answer to besides themseves. They dont take the time to investigate, whats true, whats false, why would so many people in history give their lives proclaming the name of Christ? Most athiests simply make thier decisions on God based on thier life experience, or from what a friend or family member has told them through thier life, they have never taken an open look to investigate what it is. I did this a little over 2 years ago, and found the evidence far to overwhelming to ignore, and realised I need to turn to God.

As far as the past and present goes, like the crusades, or some catholic priest who like little boys. I agree like many other religions, and non reliegions, we Christians have a dark past. Many men have killed thinking they are doing the glory for god, and many men have been highly respected clerkymen who have molested little boys or girls. But with any other following of people, we have our weekness to. Being a Christian isnt about saying we are any better than a non Christian, its about saying we are all the same, and unlike any other group of people I have been around in my life, my Christian friends have been the best at giving me support in who I am, helping me when I am down, and moving forward to become a better human being.

I know, I dont like reading big novel posts, and I do not like writing them, but this is something close to my heart, but yet I do not get upset about it, I feel sad for all who reject Christ, and want every one to at least make an effort to educate them selves before making a decision like this. Some people say Christians force thier opinions on others, but lets look at it this way. What if you found the best thing in the world to you(Money, endless suped up Jeeps, or everlasting life), and thier is enough to share to everyone, never running out, would you keep it to yourself? Or would you share it with the world?

I will leave it with that last sentence. If you would like any information that might educate you, or maybe you think your educated enough, and would like to have a little ongoing debate, please give me a PM. No worries of me getting offended, I love debates. I just would not like to have a flame war start here as I am newer here, like this site, and would not like to cause problems
I don't really think anyone is bashing Christianity.

Read your post and tell me there is no holier than thou attitude about it. Someone rejecting Christ doesn't make them ignorant, as a matter of fact an argument could be made to the exact opposite effect. For example if you believe the bible completely than you believe the earth is at most 10,000 years old. As we know that just isn't true, the earth is around 4.5 billion years old. I don't understand your idea of "investigating" the religion either. Are you talking about studying theology or taking a scientific look at Christianity?

The reason so many people have and will accept Christ as their savior is because it is passed down throughout the generations. Christianity started in a time where the majority of modern scientific ideas and theories didn't exist and weren't even close to existing. God is a convenient answer to the big questions, where did we come from and how, but if you look at it unbiased and scientifically the idea that somehow the human race comprehended a God (the right God on top of that) is pretty far fetched. How exactly do you know every other religion and belief is wrong?
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Unread 12-31-2007, 05:34 PM   #64
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yea I wrote a paper on this for lit last semster, got a 34 outta 35
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Unread 12-31-2007, 07:38 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLS33
I don't really think anyone is bashing Christianity.

Read your post and tell me there is no holier than thou attitude about it. Someone rejecting Christ doesn't make them ignorant, as a matter of fact an argument could be made to the exact opposite effect. For example if you believe the bible completely than you believe the earth is at most 10,000 years old. As we know that just isn't true, the earth is around 4.5 billion years old. I don't understand your idea of "investigating" the religion either. Are you talking about studying theology or taking a scientific look at Christianity?

The reason so many people have and will accept Christ as their savior is because it is passed down throughout the generations. Christianity started in a time where the majority of modern scientific ideas and theories didn't exist and weren't even close to existing. God is a convenient answer to the big questions, where did we come from and how, but if you look at it unbiased and scientifically the idea that somehow the human race comprehended a God (the right God on top of that) is pretty far fetched. How exactly do you know every other religion and belief is wrong?
My new year resolution is to stay out of these type of arguements but I'm going to say this then I'm finished. (I hope) Saying that people only accept Christ because it is passed down throughout geenrations is false. Just as many people follow Christ whose parents and Grandparents were not christians as people who follow Christ whose parents were. Christianity is spreading in places like China, there weren't Generations of Christians there but people are accepting Christ.You don't have to believe in God, that's your choice but God is not a convienent answer to anything. There's nothing I can say to convince you of that but you can read some of Lee Strobels books, he was an devout Atheist too until his wife accepted Christ and it pissed him off. So he set out to prove her wrong and show her how stupid she was, the result, two years later he became a Christian. He has written several books, read one and tell him where he is wrong. There are plenty of other former Atheist out there who now believe in Christ too.

Oh, you can believe the Bible completely and believe the Earth is billions of years old. The Bible says the Earth was created in seven days but as alot of christians and christian scientist will tell you, a day could have been a thousand years or a billion years, a day was a way to describe a period of time. I'm not a bible thumper but I believe the bible is completely true and I also believe the universe is billions and billions of years old.
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Unread 12-31-2007, 10:29 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ionakana
My new year resolution is to stay out of these type of arguements but I'm going to say this then I'm finished. (I hope) Saying that people only accept Christ because it is passed down throughout geenrations is false. Just as many people follow Christ whose parents and Grandparents were not christians as people who follow Christ whose parents were. Christianity is spreading in places like China, there weren't Generations of Christians there but people are accepting Christ.You don't have to believe in God, that's your choice but God is not a convienent answer to anything. There's nothing I can say to convince you of that but you can read some of Lee Strobels books, he was an devout Atheist too until his wife accepted Christ and it pissed him off. So he set out to prove her wrong and show her how stupid she was, the result, two years later he became a Christian. He has written several books, read one and tell him where he is wrong. There are plenty of other former Atheist out there who now believe in Christ too.

Oh, you can believe the Bible completely and believe the Earth is billions of years old. The Bible says the Earth was created in seven days but as alot of christians and christian scientist will tell you, a day could have been a thousand years or a billion years, a day was a way to describe a period of time. I'm not a bible thumper but I believe the bible is completely true and I also believe the universe is billions and billions of years old.
I'm not saying that people believe in Christ exclusively because it has been passed down to them but I am saying that is why so many people do. During the formative years of someones life they are easily influenced, and most people, in the U.S. especially, have had Christianity passed down to them. Hell I did but I wasn't buying what they were selling me.

How is God not a convenient answer? Rather than trying to find out why or how things happen you simple say "God did it". I will give you that the bible doesn't give any specific time frame for the age of the earth, however you can not honestly believe everything in the bible is true can you? What if there is life on other planets doesn't that falsify most of the bible? I mean if you look at the vastness of the universe there is a big chance of life out there, how come none of that is mentioned in the bible? Does the bible mention dinosaurs? Evolution?
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Unread 12-31-2007, 11:25 PM   #67
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I have SOOOOOO much I want to say, but will hold it in as the replys would take up a few hours of my time I don't want to take as I have said them all before. Instead I want to hit you with a couple of things. Besides this is going to be long and I am only addressing a couple of things.

Quote:
Is anyone else sick of hearing all the right-wing politicians trying to make the next election a religious issue?
In all honesty it isn't the "right-wing" politicians trying to make it religious it is the media and moderators that are. Honestly, if you look at yourself as just a normal citizen what would you want to ask? I doubt much would be about religion, but more on issues of the day. I would ask about issues and I am a very religious person. So now look at this. Who are asking the questions? everyday people or media figures? (youtube debate doesn't count as it was moderated and chosen by media and was a complete stupid waste of time)

2nd thing i'd like to mention is that how are country was founded the principles they were founded on are EXTREMELY important, heck that is why the supreme court exists. So 100+ year old quotes matter everyday in policy decisions.

On that note. "Separation of Church and State" is completely mis-understood and taken out of context of how our founding fathers intended. One of the major issues of england way back when was the churches controlling intrests in the government. Simply put people of the church in the church getting direction from the pope making decisions based on what the pope said. This is bad so the separation of church and state is to try and cut out people going to their priest and saying i have this problem what should I do? and the priest telling the person what to do. Where they should be going is God. I mean if god doesn't exist and a person asks the air who is that hurting?

Also when you put someone in office you put them the whole them in office. If they believe in god then that means they are going to be influenced by god. And I would NEVER vote for someone who says they are god fearing, but will not let god influence their vote. Again if god doesn't exist what does it matter if the voice in the back of the persons head guides you it still comes from the person not the church
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Unread 01-01-2008, 10:44 AM   #68
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Great answers everyone...

Sorry, If you think I came as holyier than though, not my intention at all, and I in no way feel that way about anyone, just to make sure everyone knows what ignorance is, its the unwilling to learn, and such proof is in your post bls33. Your post has no reasurch in it, nothing learned, simply what some textbook has told you, and experiences from your life, which there is nothing wrong with. Try broading your research some, and come up with some hard questions as to why you believe the earth is billions of years old, or why people like myself who had no christian ties in my past, have looked into it and realized the evidence is over whelming.

Here is a question, why are more and more scientists, archioligists, and doctors becoming christians? The percentage of these people converting is higher than any other career. Now I wont even think for a minute that I know a handfull of what these guys know about thier trades. Generaly speaking, these are smart people, are you to think they are fooled, or maybe they have looked at what they have learned, and realized the same I did?

Why is it we (we being me at one point to) believe everything our textbook says? These book sdo have some hard scientific facts, but like anything else, they also have opinions that have been made to be believed as fact. Why do they teach opinions like evolution then? Simply as the School board in many states have said they need to teach something, they simply cannot teach that we dont know how it all started, and evolution is the best idea they can come up with that doesnt offend anyone that is not religious. Evolution came from darwins book origin of species, what had some good THEORIES in it, and in that same book he himself said these are theories from my research, and if any part can be proved wrong, then the whole concept is wrong. In many ways we have proved the thoery of evolution to be wrong. In fact in the last year, a group of secular scientists have been researching DNA, and have come to the conclusion that through DNA, they can trace back our ancestory to about 40 sources about 6 thousand years ago. Sound like were getting closer to man kind coming from 2 people to me?

As far as how old the earth is, I can go on and on about how wrong most secular science can be. Using the layers of the earth to date it, has huge flaws in it. Why is it that they find layers, and they date them as one being 100 000 years old, and the one below it as 200 000 years old (years are an example for my point) they show that the bottom layer is packed harder, had bigger rocks in it, so the layer above it settlement of years of dust. So they are implying the earth is growing bigger? Now between these layers they have found big huge dinosaurs, that are standing upright between both layers, and big trees, unlike most trees we see today, standing upright between 2 or more layers. How is that possible? the feet and body of the dinosaur is 200 000 years old, and the neck and head are only 100 00o years old?

Carbon dating, has huge flaws in it. They have proven many things that were "proven" to be dated thousands of years old were only hundreds. Example, and guy found a petrofied boot, took an unobvious section of it to scientists, and had it dated, they gave it a date of over a few thousand years, then he brought him the rest of the boot and showed them it was a working boot from the 50's.

I can go on and on explaing that there are huge flaws in what we call science, and alot of time they have called things science fact, when they are simply science theory. challenge yourself, ask why you beleive in what you believe. There are many books out there that challenge what we have been taught. as noted above, Lee Strobel, devoted athiest, when to show his wife that these christians are fools, and are nothing more than a cult, and from facts, came to one conclusion. If you are going to buy one book that is a simple to understand read, that will just touch the surface enough on science to want you to investigate more, buy his book "Case for a Creator". If anything, it will have you asking why you believe what you believe
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Unread 01-01-2008, 10:57 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Cooper
Great answers everyone...

Sorry, If you think I came as holyier than though, not my intention at all, and I in no way feel that way about anyone, just to make sure everyone knows what ignorance is, its the unwilling to learn, and such proof is in your post bls33. Your post has no reasurch in it, nothing learned, simply what some textbook has told you, and experiences from your life, which there is nothing wrong with. Try broading your research some, and come up with some hard questions as to why you believe the earth is billions of years old, or why people like myself who had no christian ties in my past, have looked into it and realized the evidence is over whelming.

Here is a question, why are more and more scientists, archioligists, and doctors becoming christians? The percentage of these people converting is higher than any other career. Now I wont even think for a minute that I know a handfull of what these guys know about thier trades. Generaly speaking, these are smart people, are you to think they are fooled, or maybe they have looked at what they have learned, and realized the same I did?

Why is it we (we being me at one point to) believe everything our textbook says? These book sdo have some hard scientific facts, but like anything else, they also have opinions that have been made to be believed as fact. Why do they teach opinions like evolution then? Simply as the School board in many states have said they need to teach something, they simply cannot teach that we dont know how it all started, and evolution is the best idea they can come up with that doesnt offend anyone that is not religious. Evolution came from darwins book origin of species, what had some good THEORIES in it, and in that same book he himself said these are theories from my research, and if any part can be proved wrong, then the whole concept is wrong. In many ways we have proved the thoery of evolution to be wrong. In fact in the last year, a group of secular scientists have been researching DNA, and have come to the conclusion that through DNA, they can trace back our ancestory to about 40 sources about 6 thousand years ago. Sound like were getting closer to man kind coming from 2 people to me?

As far as how old the earth is, I can go on and on about how wrong most secular science can be. Using the layers of the earth to date it, has huge flaws in it. Why is it that they find layers, and they date them as one being 100 000 years old, and the one below it as 200 000 years old (years are an example for my point) they show that the bottom layer is packed harder, had bigger rocks in it, so the layer above it settlement of years of dust. So they are implying the earth is growing bigger? Now between these layers they have found big huge dinosaurs, that are standing upright between both layers, and big trees, unlike most trees we see today, standing upright between 2 or more layers. How is that possible? the feet and body of the dinosaur is 200 000 years old, and the neck and head are only 100 00o years old?

Carbon dating, has huge flaws in it. They have proven many things that were "proven" to be dated thousands of years old were only hundreds. Example, and guy found a petrofied boot, took an unobvious section of it to scientists, and had it dated, they gave it a date of over a few thousand years, then he brought him the rest of the boot and showed them it was a working boot from the 50's.

I can go on and on explaing that there are huge flaws in what we call science, and alot of time they have called things science fact, when they are simply science theory. challenge yourself, ask why you beleive in what you believe. There are many books out there that challenge what we have been taught. as noted above, Lee Strobel, devoted athiest, when to show his wife that these christians are fools, and are nothing more than a cult, and from facts, came to one conclusion. If you are going to buy one book that is a simple to understand read, that will just touch the surface enough on science to want you to investigate more, buy his book "Case for a Creator". If anything, it will have you asking why you believe what you believe
Mike ...

please provide us with links or something similar for the "facts" you have presented in your last post.

thank you
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Unread 01-01-2008, 12:20 PM   #70
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I mostly read books for this, but to help back up what I say, I will do some research and see what I can find. As I said, Case for a creator is a really good one. His other books, Case for Christ, and Case for faith are both good. I have read more than his books, but I suggest his books more to people who are just starting because they are easy reads, not to complex

Of course, some may not accept my main source, the Bible. See, from what evedence I have found outside the bible that makes me trust 100% in the bible, I simply trust in what the bible has to say about how earth was created.

Here are just some interesting links I have found

I am sure you could find lotd on this website, but this page is good
http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=...on=view&ID=204

This one has some good questions to ponder
http://www.reasons.org/resources/apo...cs/index.shtml

This guy is funny, I have watched his videos. I do not agree with him 100%, and think he is an extremist christian, but his videos bring up a lot of points, and got me to asking what I believe in.
http://www.drdino.com/downloads.php?type=Seminar+Video

These are simply arguments, and some facts. But with what is provided here, and what you can find on the net, I think it takes much more "faith" to believe in evolution, than in God and the bible. I will continue to search out what I think is good material that I can 100% trust.
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Unread 01-01-2008, 12:40 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Cooper
Of course, some may not accept my main source, the Bible. See, from what evedence I have found outside the bible that makes me trust 100% in the bible, I simply trust in what the bible has to say about how earth was created.
which version, and why. a lot has been lost in translation and has been revised by rulers (king james)

also we know it was written by man and not god, we have accounts of people deciding what was included and what wasn't

It's a collection of stories to help guide people, not a book to be read literally
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Unread 01-01-2008, 12:50 PM   #72
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Here is a message from a scientist at our church, go to the link and look up the video titled creation/evolution - Dr. Emil
http://www.alivebc.com/video.html

Another good good message from my church
http://www.willowparkchurch.com/mediafiles/052007.mp4
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Unread 01-01-2008, 01:08 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scs748
which version, and why. a lot has been lost in translation and has been revised by rulers (king james)

also we know it was written by man and not god, we have accounts of people deciding what was included and what wasn't

It's a collection of stories to help guide people, not a book to be read literally
I know there has been many translations through the years, I beleive king james and NIV are the best for translating into a modern language we can understand. Yes, at one time there was a group of people who decided which books would make it into the bible we know today. Those books were chosen because none of them conflicted eachother, show God in the same way, and give us the same guides to life with. They have been written by people, and I believe God spoke to those people. I think he can aso speak to you and me. and anyone could write a story today on how God lives with us, and our life experiences. But we would need to figure out how close you are in a relationship with god, see how you work with him, to decide if we could say your writing were God inspired. Thats what the original people did when they had to decide what books to use. They didnt decide what parts of the books to include, they decided as a whole, if the book was insprided by God or not. If by proof of past scriptures, and traditional preaching, a book didint depict God in the way that the rest did, it was accepted. Some of those books are stil out there, and I do think they still have good God inspired stories, but have conflicts in them, and i dont believe the people who wrote them were as close to God as the wuthors of other books. Lets not forget, those same stories were passed though generation to generation untill it was decided to make one book. Jesus Also confirmed that those stories were true, and from history, we have proven Jesus was true.

We have Scolars today, and people who understand old hebrew, and do modern translations, and agree that the message from the bible is very accurate in its translation today, and that was proved even more when the dead sea scrolls were found, one of the oldest copies of some of the books in the bible found. There has been some erros found in translations, but they have been small things, nothing that would disprove anything in the bible.

Yes the bible is a guide to live life on, here is something funny I saw once. Read the first letter of every word going down.

Basic
Instructions
Before
Leaving
Earth

The bible is meant to be taken literaly. I dont know how you can use it as a guide to live life on, and not take it literally.
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Unread 01-01-2008, 01:34 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLS33
I will give you that the bible doesn't give any specific time frame for the age of the earth, however you can not honestly believe everything in the bible is true can you? What if there is life on other planets doesn't that falsify most of the bible? I mean if you look at the vastness of the universe there is a big chance of life out there, how come none of that is mentioned in the bible? Does the bible mention dinosaurs? Evolution?
Your posts have generally been pretty rational. I hope you are not suggesting that because a historical event is not mentioned in a book that the occurence of the event disproves the book.

As we all know, the bible is a book of stories written by many people, over many years, that has gone through many translations. The modern bible does not mention dinosaurs (although some Christians have argued that some of the animals and beasts described in the modern bible are dinosaurs), but that does not necessarily mean that a previous version or an omitted book did not mention them.
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Unread 01-01-2008, 01:43 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by TJ Tex
Which Christians are threatening us with our lives if we don't become Christians?

Which Christians are trying to establish religous law like Sharia law?

Which Christians are killing innocent people in the name of their religion?

Which Christians are invading 3rd world nations in Africa and are killing hundreds of thousands of people of other faiths?

Which Christians knocked down skyscrapers in the name of their religion?


Your idea of "pushing beliefs" on people is pretty distorted. Christians have the same free speech you have. You have the same right to not listen as the next guy.
AMEN to that!!!
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