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Unread 12-30-2007, 10:43 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PJL
See my comments about prohibition. I don't want someone who's so blinded by "principles" that they're divorced from reality leading the country, either.
Very true, but I don't think any group in todays age has enough power to enact anything like that again. Honestly, no mattter who is our next president, I don't forsee things changing that drastically where any of us couldn't cope with what is to come. The biggest thing the next president will influence is the war. Even if abortion became totally illegal would it really change that many lives? There are just too many special interest groups out there for there to be any major changes. The next president could be Jesus himself and still would only be one person, and probably couldn't change a whole lot. (Without performing a miracle)

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Unread 12-30-2007, 11:58 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PJL
Presidential candidates should be able to let their own personal beliefs be known, but they should not be able to run based on making promises to focus groups that they'll turn the US into a theocracy, which is what so many... do when addressing those who represent the "religious right." One of the reasons I have such an uneasy feeling about Mike Huckabee is his insistence on leaning so strongly on his religion and his past as a minister when it comes to his speeches regarding social policy.

Theocracy??? seriously???
Which candidate is doing this?
Are U saying Huckabee is doing this? Or is this just a blanket statement based on how U feel?
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Originally Posted by 80 CHOPPER View Post
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Unread 12-31-2007, 12:12 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robncar
I thought I'd post an excerpt from the U.S. constitution in a thread titled "Separation between Church and State" along with a personal interpretation of what I think the establishment clause has to say or what it's intent was; one of tolerance.

.
Where in the Constitution does it mention Separation of Church and State?
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Unread 12-31-2007, 12:18 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross
Where in the Constitution does it mention Separation of Church and State?
If you can find it, let me know...

The phrase "wall of separation of church and state" was originally penned by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 in a letter to the Danbury Baptists as a means of reassuring them that the state will keep out of church business, not the other way around.
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Unread 12-31-2007, 12:19 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grogie
What we need to do is ban Christians from holding any political office! Of course we should have started with our founding fathers, like Patrick Henry who said, “It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ.” For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here. [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

And don't forget guys like James Madison in 1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia who said, “We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.”

And also that trouble maker George Washington, who during his inauguration, took the oath as prescribed by the Constitution but added several religious components to that official ceremony. Before taking his oath of office, he summoned a Bible on which to take the oath, added the words “So help me God!” to the end of the oath, then leaned over and kissed the Bible.

How dare they!










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Unread 12-31-2007, 08:21 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robncar
"Persecution" was not my word but that of another poster. I was giving an example of what some may perceive as a war on Christianity.

Perhaps we could take "under God" out of the Pledge of Allegiance too. Remove the prayer that is said by the Chaplain of the Senate prior to the start of sessions. Remove the star of david or crosses from military headstones. Some of these things are traditional in nature. They are a part of the national heritage. If a differing majority comes along, this may change. It may also change by the composition of a future Supreme Court, who knows?

I was also wondering, earlier you said that it was stupid to bring the words of the founding fathers into a current argument. But didn't you also cite the Crusades in one of your examples? How current is that as a reference of modern peoples? Please, pass the cake...

I hardly consider retarded political correctness a "war on Christianity". Obviously it is stupid to call a Christmas tree anything else because it IS a Christmas tree, but to be honest if that is the only war on Christianity I would feel lucky.

As far as the crusades are concerned I stated it was in historical context, I wasn't applying it in any way to the modern day. Someone was speaking as if Christians have never been a part of any atrocities, which clearly is false. I am failing to draw parallels between my mentioning, in a historical context, the crusades and someone trying to apply 100+ year old quotes to todays issues.
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Unread 12-31-2007, 08:32 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robncar
If you can find it, let me know...

The phrase "wall of separation of church and state" was originally penned by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 in a letter to the Danbury Baptists as a means of reassuring them that the state will keep out of church business, not the other way around.
How about you just post the text of the letter and let people interpret the meaning for themselves?
Quote:
To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.
Source: Library of Congress website http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html

Compare this to the draft version of the letter, which has been interpreted by the LOC from Jefferson's handwriting:
Quote:
To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and, in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" thus building a wall of eternal separation between Church & State. Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from prescribing even those occasional performances of devotion, practiced indeed by the Executive of another nation as the legal head of its church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect,

[Jefferson first wrote: "confining myself therefore to the duties of my station, which are merely temporal, be assured that your religious rights shall never be infringed by any act of mine and that." These lines he crossed out and then wrote: "concurring with"; having crossed out these two words, he wrote: "Adhering to this great act of national legislation in behalf of the rights of conscience"; next he crossed out these words and wrote: "Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience I shall see with friendly dispositions the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced that he has no natural rights in opposition to his social duties."]

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & the Danbury Baptist [your religious] association assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.
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Unread 12-31-2007, 08:52 AM   #53
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Also, grogie posted a quote from James Madison, trying to make it appear as if Madison approved of theocratic actions by the government. This document, called the "Detachment Memoranda," published after Madison's presidency, shows that Madison was very much against "the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies" to what he refers to as the "strongly guarded...separation between religion & government." This included not allowing ecclesiastic bodies to own private property because of the abuses shown by "excessive wealth of ecclesiastical Corporations and the misuse of it in many Countries of Europe."

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/found...ligions64.html

Also, in my opinion, it's impossible to say that the government has to stay out of religion but religion doesn't have to stay out of government. Whether you breach a barrier from one side or the other, it's still breached. And why would religion want into the government for any other purpose but to use that government to institute its policies - government implementation of sectarian policies automatically infringes on the rights of the other religious groups that don't hold the same things true or sacred. We see it throughout the history of the United States - religion trying to get involved in government results in fear mongering and completely ineffective restrictive social programs rooted in the most fundamentalist Christian "morality."

Instructive on the issue, as well, is Justice Black's majority opinion in Everson v. Ewing Bd. of Ed. (330 US 1), which explores the legal application of the doctrine of "separation of Church and State." Note that this decision from 1947 has never been overturned. The standard has been changed over the years, but the Court has never struck down the idea that a wall of separation actually exists. This is called "establishment clause" doctrine.

Last edited by PJL; 12-31-2007 at 09:11 AM..
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Unread 12-31-2007, 10:24 AM   #54
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OK, I think I will get alot of oposition on this one, but here I go.

I think its funny how almost everyone who is an athiest (IE, doesnt believe in a God) is so harsh against Christianity, and not any other religion. They will have tolerence for most other religions, but get thier back up against Christians. I also think its extremely FUNNY ( I cap it cause I really want to express I am NOT mad, but beside myself in laughter) that So many people bash Christianity in complete ignorance. They turn thier back on it simply because they know if they believe, they now have someone to answer to besides themseves. They dont take the time to investigate, whats true, whats false, why would so many people in history give their lives proclaming the name of Christ? Most athiests simply make thier decisions on God based on thier life experience, or from what a friend or family member has told them through thier life, they have never taken an open look to investigate what it is. I did this a little over 2 years ago, and found the evidence far to overwhelming to ignore, and realised I need to turn to God.

As far as the past and present goes, like the crusades, or some catholic priest who like little boys. I agree like many other religions, and non reliegions, we Christians have a dark past. Many men have killed thinking they are doing the glory for god, and many men have been highly respected clerkymen who have molested little boys or girls. But with any other following of people, we have our weekness to. Being a Christian isnt about saying we are any better than a non Christian, its about saying we are all the same, and unlike any other group of people I have been around in my life, my Christian friends have been the best at giving me support in who I am, helping me when I am down, and moving forward to become a better human being.

I know, I dont like reading big novel posts, and I do not like writing them, but this is something close to my heart, but yet I do not get upset about it, I feel sad for all who reject Christ, and want every one to at least make an effort to educate them selves before making a decision like this. Some people say Christians force thier opinions on others, but lets look at it this way. What if you found the best thing in the world to you(Money, endless suped up Jeeps, or everlasting life), and thier is enough to share to everyone, never running out, would you keep it to yourself? Or would you share it with the world?

I will leave it with that last sentence. If you would like any information that might educate you, or maybe you think your educated enough, and would like to have a little ongoing debate, please give me a PM. No worries of me getting offended, I love debates. I just would not like to have a flame war start here as I am newer here, like this site, and would not like to cause problems
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Unread 12-31-2007, 11:06 AM   #55
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Mike I commend you for trying to reach out! I hope you can make a difference in someone's life!
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Unread 12-31-2007, 11:44 AM   #56
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I think the thing that has been lost in this debate is that very few of the candidates from either major party ARE religious. They saw the polls that the last election was impacted heavily by 'evangelicals' and they are pandering as politicians do. Even Hillary has made a stiff attempt.

It is just like Kerry and everybody else trying to pose with a shotgun last election after polls showed guns were a major issue in the previous one.
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Unread 12-31-2007, 11:50 AM   #57
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i personally hate election time, everyone is so full of crap it is spewing out of their ears. nobody can give a straight answer and frankly, not a single one really gives a damn about the issues at hand. both sides, red or blue, will not improve the road that this country is heading down. it is simply a bunch of hollow promises to get them into the white house so they can get their hands on that fancy soap. i say we have a giant cage match and anything but guns and knives are allowed and let them go at it....except hillary can't be in it b/c she's more manly then any of them and it would be unfair for huckabee and obama.
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Unread 12-31-2007, 11:56 AM   #58
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I agree fully, Canadian elections are nothing like americans, seems like your debates and press conferences last months before an election, and they are full of crap, ours seem much shorter...but just as much crap.
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Unread 12-31-2007, 01:11 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Cooper
OK, I think I will get alot of oposition on this one, but here I go.

I think its funny how almost everyone who is an athiest (IE, doesnt believe in a God) is so harsh against Christianity, and not any other religion. They will have tolerence for most other religions.....
the answer is simple in christianity, it's that christians feel the need to shove their religion down other peoples throat. That's why there is such a backlash
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Unread 12-31-2007, 01:12 PM   #60
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Mike,

I think it's a bit of a red herring for Christians to paint their political opponents as only being atheists. There are plenty of conscientious Christians who oppose theological influence in government. For example, there was a case in Pennsylvania recently regarding the teaching of "intelligent design." The judge who decided against the intelligent design proponents was a Republican-voting, church-going Catholic. You don't have to be atheist or agnostic to believe that our government is secular and shouldn't be in the business of either fowarding or inhibiting religions. And the reason that Christians feel so "oppressed" in the western world is that they're the ones with potentially the most political power to twist government to act in their favor. And they're not oppressed by any means. Focus on the Family and the entire body of 700 Club watchers and those who exist on the fringe of mainstream Christianity represent a huge demographic in the US when it comes to voting power and government influence. In 2004, no group had been pandered to as hard as Bush pandered to the religious right since Bill Clinton pandered to the "soccer moms" in 1996. I'm not saying they offer a threat of violence, but there's definitely a vocal minority (who teach intolerance or hate in many instances) who want to use the government to legislate their own morality. With about 70% of the population of the US self-identifying as "Christian," this threat of theocratic influence in government is much larger than if it came from Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc.
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