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Unread 12-30-2007, 10:38 PM   #31
MarkoPo
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I truely see your point there, and if that is motivation to make you aquire more and become more happy thats great. Some people prosper becase they see a successful person and follow their lead. I honestly am happy with what I have, sure I would like more toys in the garage, but I don't go buy something because my neighbor has one. I am also happily married, so I really don't look at other women like this, and I would never cheat on my wife. I have loved other women before I married my wife, and when they moved on, so did I. I am sure you have good morals and a great work ethic, we each find happiness in our own ways.

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Unread 12-30-2007, 10:40 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robncar
U.S. Constitution, 1st Amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;...

Freedom OF religion, not FROM religion. The intent was one of tolerance, not removal of all religiosity from the public square.
No one's saying that religion should be removed from the public square. You're trying to make a distinction where none exists. The argument is simply that the government should remain secular because that's the only fair application of government in the US, and that religion should be a private matter, insofar that you can choose to practice whatever religion you want, but don't expect the government to be the handmaid of Christianity. The government should not be in the business of implementing policies that favor the sectarian beliefs of one particular group.
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Unread 12-30-2007, 10:48 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamble71
It's been proven that if people were just to drop the premartial sex for 3 generations we would be free of STDs. However, people who believe they know better have been ruining it for the everyone else since the beginning of time.
and those people you are refering to are christians themselves. obviously a christian had to break the rules somewhere along the line, unless you want to try and argue the fact that all christians have no std's.
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Unread 12-30-2007, 10:49 PM   #34
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^ Lies! Obviously every self-professed Christian is a perfect human being and therefore is fully justified in talking down to everyone they meet who isn't Christian.

Hey, if you're worried about STDs, don't have premarital sex. That's your choice. Everyone has a choice. Some people, on the other hand, want to take choices away by legislating Christian morality as law for no purpose other than to give legitimacy and power to their own version of the supernatural "truth," irrespective of the belief of others. And let's not pretend like every act wrapped in the trappings of Christian "morality" is some gift to society to save it from itself. Anyone recall learning about the utter idiocy that was "Prohibition?" Sobriety movements - which have always failed miserably - were a mainstay of the evangelical Christian movement throughout the 18th and 19th centuries, finally getting their amendment in the early 20th century which launched one of the largest spikes in violent crime in the history of the US. A lot of Christian "morality" legislation has the problem of not thinking outside its own pious box, not taking real-world concerns into consideration. Modernly, we could discuss the utter failure of abstinence-only education, which is something driven by childish adults who don't feel their children should be fairly educated on human sexuality, instead pushing a program (motivated by their own immaturity and insecurity) that actually results in more promiscuity, more instances of teen pregnancy, and more general ignorance about the true risks involved in the decision to engage in sex.
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Unread 12-30-2007, 10:53 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chance_p
and those people you are refering to are christians themselves. obviously a christian had to break the rules somewhere along the line, unless you want to try and argue the fact that all christians have no std's.
He never mention anything about christianity in his post, it is just a simple fact. Same thing in Africa, if all people only had 1 virgin sex partner no more AIDS, except those who get it from their mother during childbirth or BREASTFEEDING there PJL (inside joke)
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Unread 12-30-2007, 10:53 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PJL
No one's saying that religion should be removed from the public square. You're trying to make a distinction where none exists. The argument is simply that the government should remain secular because that's the only fair application of government in the US, and that religion should be a private matter, insofar that you can choose to practice whatever religion you want, but don't expect the government to be the handmaid of Christianity. The government should not be in the business of implementing policies that favor the sectarian beliefs of one particular group.
I thought I'd post an excerpt from the U.S. constitution in a thread titled "Separation between Church and State" along with a personal interpretation of what I think the establishment clause and free exercise clause have to say or what thier intent was; one of tolerance.

To say that there is not a movement to remove all things religious, especially Christian in nature, from the public square is not reality based. I also never advocated the establishment of a purely Christian form of government, did I? As I read the first amendment, it does not allow for the establishment of a national religion. Nor does it bar presidential candidates from expressing a practice of a particular faith, whatever faith that may be.

Last edited by robncar; 12-31-2007 at 01:29 AM..
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Unread 12-30-2007, 10:54 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by CA4PNY450
[YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fewKW8G1xyE[/YT]

Just in case you dont know; those are people, Christians, making tribute to the murderer of another person, a highly functioning and valuable member of society, a Doctor.

Behold the majesty of your Kingdom!
Who represents your kingdom? Stalin? Hitler?

The 10 Commandments were for God's people. God didn't give the 10 Commandments to those that don't follow him. Our laws are based on the Biblical laws but I don't see anybody trying to establish a theocracy.

Just because we believe that an unborn child has a right to live doesn't mean that we condone murder of other kinds. You can name any nutcase you want, but Fred Phelps or whoever you are naming doesn't share my beliefs or those of any of my faith.

If we are so close to establishing a theocracy, why are my tax dollars going to killing the unborn?
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Unread 12-30-2007, 10:57 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamble71
to know Jesus is to read his teachings, realize he was the Son of God, and live your life according to his standards. By your own admission you're disrespectful, covetous, foul mouthed and worship carven images. Otherwise why would you have a problem with those parts of the commandments? It's been proven that if people were just to drop the premartial sex for 3 generations we would be free of STDs. However, people who believe they know better have been ruining it for the everyone else since the beginning of time. Feel sorry for ya, used to think just like you, life is much better now.

Don't feel sorry for me, you don't know me.

I never said I take God's name in vain, or disrespect my mother and father, I simply said that I don't think that it is wrong to do so. I mean my mom is a drunk pot head and a pretty poor parent why should I honor her? I did admit to coveting and to be honest anyone who says they don't is a liar, the issue is I think it is fine in many circumstances to covet while some believe it never is.

As far as premarital sex is concerned I said to take proper precautions. I think sex is healthy as long as it is done safely. Obviously if everyone was a monogamist STD percentages would drop but that will never happen. If everyone stopped eating high fat, and high calorie foods obesity and other such related conditions levels would drop, but does that make everyone who indulges in those foods a bad person?
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Unread 12-30-2007, 11:03 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robncar
To say that there is not a movement to remove all things religious, especially Christian in nature, from the public square is not reality based. I also never advocated the establishment of a purely Christian form of government, did I? As I read the first amendment, it does not allow for the establishment of a national religion. Nor does it bar presidential candidates from expressing a practice of a particular faith, whatever faith that may be.
Of course there's a movement. There's a "movement" for everything in this country. Hell, there's a "movement" that teaches the earth is still flat. What I'm saying is that there is no widespread war on Christianity like so many Christians like to complain. Christians aren't persecuted just because the government is secular. The government should not be put in a position to show favoritism to one religion over another, no matter who the majority in the US happens to be. Presidential candidates should be able to let their own personal beliefs be known, but they should not be able to run based on making promises to focus groups that they'll turn the US into a theocracy, which is what so many (especially a handful of Republicans - let's face it, Focus on the Family isn't throwing all their money at Obama or Clinton) do when addressing those who represent the "religious right." One of the reasons I have such an uneasy feeling about Mike Huckabee is his insistence on leaning so strongly on his religion and his past as a minister when it comes to his speeches regarding social policy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkoPo
He never mention anything about christianity in his post, it is just a simple fact. Same thing in Africa, if all people only had 1 virgin sex partner no more AIDS, except those who get it from their mother during childbirth or BREASTFEEDING there PJL (inside joke)
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Unread 12-30-2007, 11:05 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robncar
U.S. Constitution, 1st Amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;...

Freedom OF religion, not FROM religion. The intent was one of tolerance, not removal of all religiosity from the public square.
Quoted for truth!

Religion is simply a set of beliefs that one lives by that involves a diety, nothing or the Flying Spagetti Monster. Atheists are pushing their crap about how it offends them so we have to take "God" out of everything. Well guess what, that is as bad as say a Christian or Jewish or muslim trying to get every other religion out of the public square but their own. Making every one remove God from the public square is the same as the state saying ony Christians can hold office, Only Muslims can have a church or only Jews can own banks.
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Unread 12-30-2007, 11:10 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PJL
Of course there's a movement. There's a "movement" for everything in this country. Hell, there's a "movement" that teaches the earth is still flat. What I'm saying is that there is no widespread war on Christianity like so many Christians like to complain. Christians aren't persecuted just because the government is secular. The government should not be put in a position to show favoritism to one religion over another, no matter who the majority in the US happens to be. Presidential candidates should be able to let their own personal beliefs be known, but they should not be able to run based on making promises to focus groups that they'll turn the US into a theocracy, which is what so many (especially a handful of Republicans) do when addressing those who represent the "religious right." One of the reasons I have such an uneasy feeling about Mike Huckabee is his insistence on leaning so strongly on his religion and his past as a minister when it comes to his speeches regarding social policy.
I have to agree with you there, but that's what the republican party is about, being conservative. I think alot of the republican beliefs mock religious virtues, so people tend to think all republicans are bible thumpers. Personally I like that trait in a canidate. I just don't see someone who has good moral principles leading our country astray.
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Unread 12-30-2007, 11:15 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PJL
...What I'm saying is that there is no widespread war on Christianity like so many Christians like to complain. Christians aren't persecuted just because the government is secular.
Well, I can give you an example...

I currently work for a K-12 school district (I'm not an educator, however). In the district I work for, one may not mention the phrase "Christmas Tree", "Christmas Lights", or "Christmas Vacation". It's "Holiday Tree" (whatever that is?), "Holiday Lights", and "Winter Break" (at least this is an understandable term). But, is a "Menorah" called a "Holiday Candle Stand"? No, it's not and should not be. But, things should be even, across the board. All faiths, or lack thereof, represented.
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Unread 12-30-2007, 11:22 PM   #43
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^ My wife's a music teacher, and she goes through pretty much the same thing. The holiday tree/holiday lights thing is stupid. Just call it what it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkoPo
I just don't see someone who has good moral principles leading our country astray.
See my comments about prohibition. I don't want someone who's so blinded by "principles" that they're divorced from reality leading the country, either. That, of course, is presupposing that their "principles" are genuine.

Last edited by PJL; 12-30-2007 at 11:40 PM..
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Unread 12-30-2007, 11:23 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robncar
Well, I can give you an example...

I currently work for a K-12 school district (I'm not an educator, however). In the district I work for, one may not mention the phrase "Christmas Tree", "Christmas Lights", or "Christmas Vacation". It's "Holiday Tree" (whatever that is?), "Holiday Lights", and "Winter Break" (at least this is an understandable term). But, is a "Menorah" called a "Holiday Candle Stand"? No, it's not and should not be. But, things should be even, across the board. All faiths, or lack thereof, represented.

This isn't persecution it is political correctness. I believe you should be allowed to say Christmas tree or lights or whatever, but if you are going to take issue with not being able to say them then why not take issue with the "God" being on money? Are atheists represented with the phrase "In God we trust"?

I'm fine with that being on money even though I don't trust in any particular God, but you can't have your cake and eat it too.
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Unread 12-30-2007, 11:41 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by BLS33
This isn't persecution it is political correctness. I believe you should be allowed to say Christmas tree or lights or whatever, but if you are going to take issue with not being able to say them then why not take issue with the "God" being on money? Are atheists represented with the phrase "In God we trust"?

I'm fine with that being on money even though I don't trust in any particular God, but you can't have your cake and eat it too.
"Persecution" was not my word but that of another poster. I was giving an example of what some may perceive as a war on Christianity.

Perhaps we could take "under God" out of the Pledge of Allegiance too. Remove the prayer that is said by the Chaplain of the Senate prior to the start of sessions. Remove the star of david or crosses from military headstones. Some of these things are traditional in nature. They are a part of the national heritage. If a differing majority comes along, this may change. It may also change by the composition of a future Supreme Court, who knows?

I was also wondering, earlier you said that it was stupid to bring the words of the founding fathers into a current argument. But didn't you also cite the Crusades in one of your examples? How current is that as a reference of modern peoples? Please, pass the cake...
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