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Unread 11-04-2013, 08:07 PM   #16
rebelbowtie
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So you're one of the old timers or the ill informed that thinks he can "threshold" brake faster than the ABS? TPMS does tell which tire is low and even how much air is in it and can be programmed to pick up even 1 psi discrepancies.

My old Audi monitored the tail and head lamps too as well as the auto leveling feature. But those aren't features you buy a Jeep for IMO

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Unread 11-04-2013, 08:23 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somebody5788 View Post
There's n o such thing as a non serviceable transmission. Just because it says it's a lifetime fluid does not mean you cannot do a fluid flush. I've serviced many of them personally.
"Lifetime," in this case, means "anticipated lifetime" or "design lifetime."

For most pax POVs, that's about 100kmiles.

Yes, a transmission can run its fluid for 100Kmiles - if it's kept clean and relatively cool.

An engine can run oil for 100Kmiles - if you run a bypass filter element and change BOTH elements on sked (the full-flow every 10Kmiles or so, the bypass every 25Kmiles or so, top off the oil with the filter change to refresh.)

Problem is, it's not "Designed for Failure" then.

Read John DeLorean's bio - wherein he talked about "planned obsolescence."

Part of the reason we're a consumer-force-driven society is because people feel the need to keep up with trends (cf: Dante's Commedia Divina, specifically the Outer Circle of Hell,) and because that has become the "guiding principle" behind design & manufacture - the two tendencies tend to heterodyne each other.

And, until people realise that it actually costs less to buy something good once every 15-20 years than to buy ****e every couple of seasons, that's going to continue happening.

And interesting search term to find commentary on this is also "China price."

TRIVIA: When Sam Walton (Wal-Mart) was still alive, he was on a huge "buy American" kick, and finding something for sale in the stores that was not made in North America was rather uncommon. Sam Walton was also a private pilot, and had a habit of flying around the country visiting his stores.

Then Sam died, and the kids took over. They didn't share Sam's ethic - and damned near everything shifted to China. Wal-Mart doesn't sell Snapper lawnmowers simply because the CEO of Snapper refused to do what they wanted to do - which was make them cheap enough for Sam's kids to approve buying. He didn't want to damage the company's reputation, just to make the Walton kids happy.

Me? I'd rather spend twice as much to buy a tool once than "save money" by buying cheap and having to buy the damned thing over and over (and my scrap bin fills up with broken tools...) Odd attitude for a Scot, I know, but I look a bit farther ahead.
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Unread 11-04-2013, 08:42 PM   #18
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Another thing that annoys me is people confusing no dipstick as not being able to check the fluid level. That is false. On the transmissions you check them the way you check a differential's fluid level but it has to be cold in most cases.

On engines they think that consumers would prefer the electronic level sensor over a dipstick. Typically you can scroll through the instrument cluster menu's and view the oil level in there.
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Unread 11-04-2013, 09:54 PM   #19
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Items are built to sell nowadays not built to last
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Unread 11-04-2013, 11:40 PM   #20
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I've had two microwaves in the last 6 years. My mom still has the one she got before I was born and I'm almost 32. Still works fine, you just have to set the time a little longer.

Sent from...wait, where am I?
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Unread 11-05-2013, 10:34 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobjp View Post
You are not forced to buy a car with infotainment. What does that have to do with quality?

Non serviceable transmissions were around in your high automotive quality 1990's. Prove (with numbers, not anecdotes) that has anything to do with quality. It seems strange to me as well, but I don't go stomping around the internet saying I know better with no experience whatsoever.

You can buy a quality snow blower if you put your money where your mouth is. But apparently you didn't because you bought the cheaper one with these issues you speak of.

It seems like all you're going to do is just post random anecdotes without numbers to back it up. It's like you're regurgitating a bunch of things you overheard your dad saying to his buddies.

Americans have the freedom to choose quality products. It's not that quality products aren't out there, it's that people sacrifice quality for price.
You should stop talking. The more you talk the more you just sound like an angry troll.

1. What does this have to do with my dad? He has a good job and can buy whatever he wants, this has nothing to do with him. I discuss things based on my own experience, not on what internet numbers tell me (do you really think the companies would tell you the truth and make themselves look bad?).
2. I do put my money where my mouth is and buy quality whenever I can. My snow blower is a 30 year old John Deere with a cast iron gear box. The one I was talking about was a customer's machine.
3. With the economy the way it is, most people buy what they can afford. The lady who brought me the snow blower to fix bought it two years ago. The gear box is shot and since it will cost $300 to fix, its almost better just to buy a new one.
4. I'm not forced to buy a car with infotainment, yes, but go try to find a strip down model and let me know how you do.
5. I'm sure if I really dug deep I could find numbers to support this, but why? This is just a conversation about people's opinion on quality, and frankly I'm a big boy with an actual job who has better things to do.

Next time you reply to someone you might want to think before you ASSume.
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Unread 11-05-2013, 10:45 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somebody5788 View Post
Another thing that annoys me is people confusing no dipstick as not being able to check the fluid level. That is false. On the transmissions you check them the way you check a differential's fluid level but it has to be cold in most cases.

On engines they think that consumers would prefer the electronic level sensor over a dipstick. Typically you can scroll through the instrument cluster menu's and view the oil level in there.
You have to think realistically. Sure, you and me would know to check the transmission fluid, but we have technical knowledge about vehicles and know better than to believe the manufacturer's recommendation for no service being needed.

The average person is going to see that there isn't a dipstick and assume the transmission isn't serviceable.


The whole "image" idea is a very good point. As a society we always want to have the newest things possible and support that "image". Manufacturers recognize this and build things accordingly. When I say 1990s cars are old, its not just because of my age, but because society views them as being "old". How many 1990s cars do you see out on the road today? Here in New England, you hardly see them at all. Car commercials advertise trading in that "older" 5 year old car in for a new model with all the new gadgets.

These ideas are good guys, keep them coming! Its a conversation about people's OPINIONS so I'm not sure why everyone is getting defensive.

The whole idea of this thread was to see how important quality is to you. Some people buy that cheap alternator from Autozone with the lifetime warranty and have no problem replacing it every year when it breaks because it was cheaper. That is totally fine and that is what they like to do. Some people avoid this and would rather pay more for quality, and that is what I would like to discuss. The differences between the two and why.
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Unread 11-05-2013, 11:47 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre_r View Post
The new volvo v70 dont have dipsticks for the engine, mercedes dont have it for their auto transmissions anymore.
This is something that more and more carmakers starts to do.

Take BMW as an example they have no service on some of their auto transmissions. But ZF who builds them for BMW has 60000km/once every year before its time to do a service in the exact same transmission.
The reason:
BMW wants to make money selling new transmissions and they will not do any waranty work on it because YOU did not follow the service schedule that does not exist according to BMW.
When it fails you are ******
My daughter's 97 Pontiac Sunfire has a fill to waste tranny. No dipstick and in fact no way to tell the fluid level other than if it pours out the fill hole.
The average life of a car in the US is less than100,000 miles to the original owner. Leases, new models, next best thing...
Manufacturers don't care about resale or how easy it is to fix. They just care about original owners and having them buy new.
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Unread 11-05-2013, 12:33 PM   #24
bobjp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepkid03 View Post
You should stop talking. The more you talk the more you just sound like an angry troll.

1. What does this have to do with my dad? He has a good job and can buy whatever he wants, this has nothing to do with him. I discuss things based on my own experience, not on what internet numbers tell me (do you really think the companies would tell you the truth and make themselves look bad?).

There are a variety of independent options on the internet.

2. I do put my money where my mouth is and buy quality whenever I can. My snow blower is a 30 year old John Deere with a cast iron gear box. The one I was talking about was a customer's machine.

Then the customer bought the cheaper one! That doesn't mean every snow blower out there is of poor quality.

3. With the economy the way it is, most people buy what they can afford. The lady who brought me the snow blower to fix bought it two years ago. The gear box is shot and since it will cost $300 to fix, its almost better just to buy a new one.

Just about every product out there has a high quality option. Just because consumers choose not to spend more money on quality products doesn't mean there are no quality products to be had (which is the assumption you made in your fist post).

4. I'm not forced to buy a car with infotainment, yes, but go try to find a strip down model and let me know how you do.

What does this have to do with quality?

5. I'm sure if I really dug deep I could find numbers to support this, but why? This is just a conversation about people's opinion on quality, and frankly I'm a big boy with an actual job who has better things to do.

Why??? Why find numbers?????? Maybe so your claims can have more credibility than some beer drinking rednecks BSing in the driveway. Why would someone even ask such a question? That's like saying, "Why should my argument have any foundation whatsoever? Everyone should just take my word for it."


Next time youreply to someone you might want to think before you ASSume.

I have made no assumptions. I've challenged your unfounded claims. You have no interest in evidence. I understand if you're only interested in willy-nilly hand waving blanket statements, but you should at least put that as a foot note in your original post.

There are poor quality products out there, and there are good quality products out there. The good quality products of today are just as good or better than the good quality products of yesterday. Every consumer has a choice.
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Unread 11-05-2013, 02:16 PM   #25
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There are obviously exceptions but generally the quality of cars is far better than it was 20-30 years ago. When I was a teenager it was almost unheard of for a car to last much past 100,000 miles and tires were only good for maybe 12,000. Spark plugs were an annual change instead of now where there are nearly lifetime. In 1977 I bought a beater Cadillac for $650. The thing was a pile with all sorts of mechanical problems and rust. Think about that. that car was only 8 years old and about ready for the scrap yard. Compare that now to a 2005 car of almost any brand and it will seem almost new in comparison.

Most times quality is worth the extra money, but sometimes not. There is not much point in paying for a snap-on hammer instead of one from harbor freight for 1/10 the price but wrenches and ratchets are another matter.

The one problem I have is that certain things don't seem to have a choice; it's either junk or nothing. I would be happy to pay a little extra for a fan that didn't quit working after 2 months.
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Unread 11-06-2013, 05:17 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbolty
The one problem I have is that certain things don't seem to have a choice; it's either junk or nothing. I would be happy to pay a little extra for a fan that didn't quit working after 2 months.
Try keeping an 80's Mazda B-series pickup going, most of the parts available are short lived junk. I replaced the clutch slave every 14-15 months like clockwork on my B2200 because there was simply not a quality replacement. That being said, they are hella strong and reliable trucks, I would say very high quality despite their stripped down basic nature, but when it came to parts it was just a matter of taking what you could get. Junkyards were my friend to find OEM stuff.
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Unread 11-06-2013, 06:21 AM   #27
5-90
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Originally Posted by Bigshankhank View Post
Try keeping an 80's Mazda B-series pickup going, most of the parts available are short lived junk. I replaced the clutch slave every 14-15 months like clockwork on my B2200 because there was simply not a quality replacement. That being said, they are hella strong and reliable trucks, I would say very high quality despite their stripped down basic nature, but when it came to parts it was just a matter of taking what you could get. Junkyards were my friend to find OEM stuff.
You had that stupid "concentric slave," didn't you? Damned things never DO seal right.

But, "features" != "quality." I consider "feature creep" fodder for an entirely different discussion. Quality is quality - it's something that does what it's supposed to do, doesn't do what it's not supposed to do, and you don't have to think about it very much either way.

A "quality" battery cable, for instance, is one that uses good copper wire (not copper-clad aluminum from China,) has terminations positively attached (crimped or soldered - although I prefer crimps for underhood,) and those terminations are sealed against intrusion by contaminants (water, oil, gasoline, whatever.) The insulation on those wires is also going to be good quality Neoprene, not cheap-assed thin vinyl.

OEM battery cables barely make acceptable to me - they're not sealed, and I've seen CCA turning up on new vehicles (aluminum doesn't have the fatigue life of copper under vibrational stress, and it's not as conductive as aluminum - you lose something like 15% of your ampacity for gage!)

Replacement cables? I swear, those lugs are tinfoil - and I've cut a few apart (after replacing them again! and those rings are often nickel-plated aluminum! And thin.

If there's a battery post clamp on an OEM or aftermarket cable, it's lead (not a very good conductor) and typically cast onto the wire - without deformation of the wire to help retain the cast lug (ever see the wire pull out of a lug? I have. They don't even bend or fan the wires to help them stay put!)

Lead isn't a very good conductor, but it melts at a low temperature and it's very soft. That's why it's still used. It's even only moderately resistant to corrosion.

What's better? Brass, for one. Zinc, for another. There's a reason that the newer MIL-spec battery post clamps are cast in solid zinc. And that my brass battery post clamps have been in use on the same vehicle for 15 years...
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