[jb4]

Originally Posted by Dr. Righteous

Absolutely wrong.
The god of Islam "Allah" is NOT the same as the God of the Bible that
Jews and Christians worship.

sorry mate. they are all Abrahamic based religions

Abraham is called Ibrahim by Muslims. They see him as the father of the Arab people as well as the Jewish people through his two sons, Isaac and Ishmael (Isma'il in Arabic).
The Muslim story of Ibrahim

Abraham is a very interesting figure because he is depicted in the Qur'an as somebody who, from a very early age, had problems trying to understand God and trying to discover God and being restless knowing that perhaps the pagan environment which he was in did not have the answers. That, ultimately, God was not the star or the sun or the wind or the moon - all these forces that he saw - God was in something else.

And so from that perspective, Abraham is considered to be neither a Jewish person, nor a Christian person nor a Muslim, but somebody who is a hernif - somebody who essentially and intrinsically knows that there is really only one God. And he is praised for this essential and innate yearning to discover the unity of God.

There have been thousands of prophets and numbers of messengers but there are only four or five that have been designated a specific title according to Islam: Jesus is one, Moses is one and the Prophet Muhammad is one but also Abraham, who is known as a friend of God.

Abraham had a specific allocation given to him by God, which is that from his progeny will be all the prophets and from them - for Muslims - comes Muhammad. But he does have a relationship with God: first of all he is baffled as to how he has a son at such a late stage through Hagar and then through Sarah.

The tradition of God testing Abraham's devotion to him by asking him to sacrifice Ishmael is the heart of the Abrahamic tradition and the Abrahamic stories. Abraham was the first Prophet who was asked for the ultimate sacrifice: "I want you to sacrifice your own flesh and blood for me". And he passed the test because he was prepared to do it, in his submission and devotion to God.
What are the stories told about Abraham in the Qur'an?

Many of the stories that relate to Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael are about their flights from Sarah and also about Abraham trying to set up another dwelling, another place with Hagar and his son Ishmael.

Much of what Islamic tradition is about - and even some of the rituals such as the Hajj - stem from the pre-Islamic era and are translated into Islamic rituals through Abraham. Hagar looked for water and ran between two hills which is enacted in the Hajj ceremony as a symbolic gesture of what Hagar was doing - looking for water - and pilgrims do that.

God says to Abraham, "I'd like you to build my house for me..." - that is a Kaaba - "...here on this mound of earth, in this sacred place and I'd like you to erect the walls and I want you to purify this place." Part of this purification is what we see today in the Kaaba. The Islamic tradition has restricted this purity ritual to Muslims only. However the second ambulation that pilgrims do in praise of God is actually a legacy left from pre-Islamic days when pilgrims also came to the Kaaba - not to worship the one God, but to worship idols.

There are various things that are part of the Abrahamic story, culminating in the ultimate sacrifice which is carried out on the last day of Hajj. As a symbolic gesture, Muslims re-enact what Abraham was going to do with Ishmael by sacrificing a lamb or sheep.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/ibrahim.shtml

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam (as well as the Baha'i Faith) comprise a family of religions. A number of terms recognize their historico-theological links: the popular label "Peoples of the Book" underlines the central role scripture plays among their adherents, while scholars of religion sometimes categorize them as the "three major monotheistic faiths." The term "Abrahamic" has advantages over both usages; it focuses on a more specific affinity than does the first and avoids the categorical and interpretive controversies that may arise over the second while emphasizing the paramount place that Abraham holds in all three traditions.

For Jews, Abraham is, through Isaac and Jacob, the founding patriarch of the Children of Israel, the person to whom God promises "I will make of you a great nation/And I will bless you" (Gen. 12:2) and with whom He enters into "an everlasting covenant throughout the ages to be God to you and to your offspring to come" (Gen. 17:7). For Christians, he is the progenitor through whose seed, Jesus, God's blessings descend to the faithful, the grantee of God's covenanted promise---"those who believe are blessed with Abraham who believed" (Gal. 3:9)---and a spiritual exemplar who "grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God" (Ro. 4:20). For Muslims, he is a prophet, a Friend of God who stands in the line of those---from Noah to Muhammad---to whom Allah gave revelations (Qur'an 4:163), and who "raised the foundations of the House" [i.e., the Ka'aba] (Qur'an 2:127) with his first son, Isma'il.

Even as they all acknowledge Abraham as an ancestor, members of the three traditions have also tried to claim him as exclusively theirs. The Lubar Institute is dedicated to examining both the commonalities among the traditions and their disputes, as well as encouraging members of those traditions to consider their shared Abrahamic leg

http://lisar.lss.wisc.edu/welcome/abrahamic.html

[waterboarder]

Originally Posted by Dr. Righteous

Absolutely wrong. The god of Islam "Allah" is NOT the same as the God of the Bible that Jews and Christians worship.

Wow. Just....wow. Even as a complete not believer in any of this BS, I know your statement is incorrect. What does that say about someone calling himself "Dr. Righteous?"

[GeekInJeep]

Originally Posted by Tater Salad

Word up. There is no solution to the deities coexisting. The universe can't have been created by a team of deities; they would've then had to split up and show themselves seperately, one to the Hindi-area people, one to the Europeans, one to the Nords, one to the Africans, one to the Caribbeans, etc. This is not possible, especially when most religions claim to be monotheistic. There is either one great supernatural creator, or no deity at all.

Either way, the vast percentage of the population has devoted their spiritual beliefs to something that is completely made up. These people have been playing make-believe their whole lives. The question is, who is wrong?

Without myself denying the existence of a god, perhaps they are all wrong? Just for the sake of philosophical discussion, perhaps there is a creator, but he has shown himself to no one and does not seek worship. Just a thought. That being the case, he would be a great inventor of the intricacies of what makes science tick, but has not presented himself to people. He touched off the boom and watched.

This is why I cannot outright say god does not exist... but I cannot define him/her/it.

-T-

[Kyoseki]

Originally Posted by GeekInJeep

This is why I cannot outright say god does not exist... but I cannot define him/her/it.

Bingo.

Nobody can really say one way or the other, but it doesn't stop them from trying.

[PJL]

Originally Posted by texasdog

Wow. Just....wow. Even as a complete not believer in any of this BS, I know your statement is incorrect. What does that say about someone calling himself "Dr. Righteous?"

"Righteous" isn't synonymous with "right," the same way "rationalizing" isn't synonymous with "rational."

[Dr. Righteous]

Originally Posted by PJL

Actually, it's absolutely right. Maybe you should take a class on world religions or something. In fact, many of the characters from the Bible are featured in Muslim religious tradition. For example, it was the angel Gabriel that delivered the Qur'an to Muhammad according to tradition. They are all the same God.

That is the claim of Islam. It is illegitimate.
From study of the Bible I see no resemblance from the God of the Bible and Allah of Islam.
The name Allah is actually the name of pagan deity the the moon god from early pagan Arabic cultures.
It maybe true that Arab peoples were descendant from Ismael the son of Abraham he fathered by Hagar, Sarah's hand maiden. This happened because tradition of the time was if a woman was barren she sent her husband to her hand maiden to father a son. Very, very important for the survival of the family name. But in this Abraham did not believe God when he said Sarah would bear a son. This was disobedience.
God promised he would make Abraham a father of a great people through Issac. His covenant with Abraham was though Issac. God had no covenant concerning Ismael.

Bible stories aside, if Arab and Jews truly worship the same God then why do most Arabs have such a violent hate and even a blood lust to kill Jews? Doesn't worshiping the same God make them brothers in a sense?
The Bible never mentions God sending angles to deliver books written by God to war lords. Usually God speaks to those who are in right relationship with him. And those people are humble, kinds, loving and people that fear God.

A murders war lord does not fit the profile.

[Kyoseki]

Originally Posted by Dr. Righteous

Bible stories aside, if Arab and Jews truly worship the same God then why do most Arabs have such a violent hate and even a blood lust to kill Jews? Doesn't worshiping the same God make them brothers in a sense?

Tell that to the people in Northern Ireland, they were all Christians and they were slaughtering each other.

[waterboarder]

Originally Posted by PJL

"Righteous" isn't synonymous with "right," the same way "rationalizing" isn't synonymous with "rational."

Uh, yes, I know - and I wasn't implying that at all. Not sure why you were inspired to point this out (:

[waterboarder]

Originally Posted by Kyoseki

Tell that to the people in Northern Ireland, they were all Christians and they were slaughtering each other.

Don't forget about the Spanish and their lovely inquisition. Don't forget about the other christians who felt it necessary to go to the holy land to do their killing.... fact is, christians have a long history of killing people of all kinds.

[Kyoseki]

Originally Posted by texasdog

christians have a long history of killing people of all kinds.

Fundamentalists of any religion will find a way to turn it into an excuse to kill whomever they wish to.

[waterboarder]

Originally Posted by Kyoseki

Fundamentalists of any religion will find a way to turn it into an excuse to kill whomever they wish to.

One of the primary uses of religion - a great tool for this sort of thing. "Almighty God, Creator of Man and the Universe, says we must kill them!" Who can argue with that?

[War Eagle]

Originally Posted by Dr. Righteous

God promised he would make Abraham a father of a great people through Issac. His covenant with Abraham was though Issac. God had no covenant concerning Ismael.

It's the Isaac/Ismael argument that has caused 2000 years of fighting.

[Kyoseki]

Originally Posted by texasdog

One of the primary uses of religion - a great tool for this sort of thing. "Almighty God, Creator of Man and the Universe, says we must kill them!" Who can argue with that?

Well quite.

Here's a rather alarming piece of reasoning justifying genocide on religious grounds;
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5767

It is honestly one of the scariest things I have ever read.

[waterboarder]

God had no covenant concerning Ismael.

How the hell do you know? Maybe God and Ismael had a private deal on the side. Are you so silly to believe that your bible contains ALL information concerning your god? Don't you think it is possible that some information may have been omitted, for one reason or another?? Man - talk about a complete failure of logic.

Speaking of which - from your link, here is a great piece of failed logic:

1. If God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist.
2. Objective moral values do exist.
3. Therefore, God exists.

What is the logic behind #1?
Where is the proof of #2?
The validity of #2 does not imply #1 because #1 itself has no basis.

[BLS33]

I think that there may be something to the premise of a disbelief in a God correlating to higher intelligence. I don't really buy it is a statistical anomaly. A minuscule amount of people are raised atheist in comparison to deists; therefor, those who are atheist have confronted the major philosophical questions and reached a conclusion in adulthood. In order to analyze the universe in a naturalistic and atheistic point of view you almost have to be intelligent to give the conclusion any real value. Now I'm not saying all religious people have never really confronted the major questions (who are we, how did we get here, why are we here etc.) but I feel it is safe to say most have not, and if they have it was not from a skeptical mindset. Now I think being an atheist in the sense of believing there is 0% chance of a God existing is pretty naive. I think being agnostic is the best position. Agnostics are often thought of as fence riders; however, in reality we simply do not claim knowledge were ignorant people do. All agnostics have an opinion on what they think is most probable, some think a God is most probably, some think no God is most possible and some are indifferent.