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View Poll Results: who are you gonna vote for
Obama 11 15.71%
Huckabee 30 42.86%
other 26 37.14%
no one 3 4.29%
Voters: 70. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 01-04-2008, 03:38 PM   #61
Elwood
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Quality of health care aside, what will socialized health care do to our economy?? Look at the UK and other European nations for that. Their economy is a train wreck, partly caused by universal health care and the other reason is the liberal leaders running those countries into the ground. Granted, some countries are better economically than others, but none as strong as THIS country.

There are only so many people the working folks can support and the more the government takes away from people for things like the high costs of universal health care, the more people end up moving from the line of folks able to provide "cheese" to the line of "cheese recipients"!

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Unread 01-04-2008, 03:41 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elwood
Quality of health care aside, what will socialized health care do to our economy?? Look at the UK and other European nations for that. Their economy is a train wreck, partly caused by universal health care and the other reason is the liberal leaders running those countries into the ground. Granted, some countries are better economically than others, but none as strong as THIS country.
Before Bush came into office you could buy about $1.60 per GBP, now that's up over $2.00

The $ has dropped substantially against the Euro in the last 7 years too.

The US$ is even worth less than the Canadian $, you call that a strong economy?
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Unread 01-04-2008, 03:50 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyoseki
Before Bush came into office you could buy about $1.60 per GBP, now that's up over $2.00

The US$ is even worth less than the Canadian $, you call that a strong economy?

the economy is down but its not out. the gdp of the us is still more than all of the eu combined and still expanding faster as well. This is a more accurate way to look at an economy.
in terms of economic strength the current value of the dollar really is not much of a factor.
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Unread 01-04-2008, 03:54 PM   #64
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The value of the dollar is not the only indicator of a strong economy. While our economy could be better, all things considered, it is not that bad either.

Picture this: Universal Health Care introduced in 2009. All those Doctors, Nurses, Pharmacists, Drug company employees, Health Care equipment employees, i.e anyone involved with the health care system from top to bottom (a huge chunk of our population) who make from a living wage all the way up to a very good living all get HUGE pay cuts because the goverment is now in control. Big loss for the economy nation wide. Now lets figure in the HUGE tax increase on nearly every American man, woman and probly child to pay for it. Maybe a 10% to possibly as high as a 20% tax increase, in addition to all the other taxes you pay.

With less money in people's hands, the economy slows dramatically. It would be disastrous to be honest.

On top of that, with the drug companies not making nearly the money they did, the $$$ available for research and development for new drugs is virtually gone. Expect government grants for that?? Here comes another tax increase for the working guy who is now overtaxed anyway. There goes any type of advances in medicine as well as disposable income for the Average Joe to spend on goods and services. When that happens, people who work at the places that sell/make those goods and the people who provide the services have less money too.

Long story short, everyone is in the cheese line and soon there won't be enough cheese providers left.

Socialism ring a bell anyone??
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Unread 01-04-2008, 04:01 PM   #65
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If you want nationalized health care - subsidized by taxes - heck, just move to Canada - its already setup for you. Just be careful not to bump into the people coming down here for medical procedures that they just dont trust their "tax me 40%" government to do....
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Unread 01-04-2008, 04:21 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elwood
Picture this: Universal Health Care introduced in 2009. All those Doctors, Nurses, Pharmacists, Drug company employees, Health Care equipment employees, i.e anyone involved with the health care system from top to bottom (a huge chunk of our population) who make from a living wage all the way up to a very good living all get HUGE pay cuts because the goverment is now in control. Big loss for the economy nation wide. Now lets figure in the HUGE tax increase on nearly every American man, woman and probly child to pay for it. Maybe a 10% to possibly as high as a 20% tax increase, in addition to all the other taxes you pay.
...and which candidate/forum poster is pushing for this apocalyptic version?

I'd like to see all insurance companies be non-profit. Take the shareholders out of medical decision making. Some sort of national insurance available to everybody to buy as an alternative to what they currently have.
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Unread 01-04-2008, 04:36 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Varnish
Aren't we already paying for uninsured folks' coverage? I figure somebody with no insurance, no income, who gets a 20k emergency surgery and never pays it back is coming out of our pocket at some point. Plus the uninsured are probably less likely to get any preventive care to help reduce the need for catastrophic stuff down the line.

I guess I picture a government program to fill the gaps left by our current system.
exactly, the government program doesn't even have to support everything private care does, it should offer just the level of services needed to keep you in working shape, it could even have requirements that you must work x months out of the year or be a student. it sure doesn't need to cover things like E.D. or even transplants or other nonessential stuff, but just enough that if people get hit by a car or something they will be ok
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Unread 01-04-2008, 05:07 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Scs748
exactly, the government program doesn't even have to support everything private care does, it should offer just the level of services needed to keep you in working shape, it could even have requirements that you must work x months out of the year or be a student. it sure doesn't need to cover things like E.D. or even transplants or other nonessential stuff, but just enough that if people get hit by a car or something they will be ok

this is already in effect. nobody will ever be turned away from an emergency room.... where the hell are you from that a car accident victim w/o coverage gets no care???
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Unread 01-04-2008, 05:19 PM   #69
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Quote:
...and which candidate/forum poster is pushing for this apocalyptic version?
No one here is, but if you give the politicians an inch, they will take a mile. The Dems. want complete control of our lives and health care is a good starting place. They can't just control a little, they want it all. Look at the SCHIP program. Their proposal would move people from private insurance to goverment care. That is wrong. Bush wanted a lower amount and the Dems. walked away.

Mark my words, if the Dems. get elected, they will push very hard for and probly get univeral or goverment controlled health care and when they do, look out, your paychecks will get taxed severely! Charlie Rangel has already proposed a 4 TRILLION dollar tax hike a few months ago and no one really picked up on it much. It is the Democratic plan. Listen to the candidates, they will admit they are going to raise our taxes!!
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Unread 01-04-2008, 05:20 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scs748
so who are gonna vote for?

I voted for Obama, We need good healthcare more then anything, even though i disagree with a lot of things about him like gun control, the health care is just too important and republicans aren't doing anything to fix it
With all the hoops I have to jump through, and other crap they make you put with in the military system, I'd hate to see what a nationwide system would look like, and how it would actually work. Military only serves a couple of million people. Nationwide would be a disaster the way things are run. The best way to bring health care costs down would be to de-regulate, and make the gov. get completely out of it. I'm talking every aspect of health care - insurance, drugs, everything. Let the private sector come up with the solutions to the problems and they'll do it at half the cost and twice as fast.
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Unread 01-04-2008, 05:28 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by dz1087
With all the hoops I have to jump through, and other crap they make you put with in the military system, I'd hate to see what a nationwide system would look like, and how it would actually work. Military only serves a couple of million people. Nationwide would be a disaster the way things are run. The best way to bring health care costs down would be to de-regulate, and make the gov. get completely out of it. I'm talking every aspect of health care - insurance, drugs, everything. Let the private sector come up with the solutions to the problems and they'll do it at half the cost and twice as fast.

this and something needs to be done to protect those who work in the industry from frivilous lawsuits that cost billions in liabilty ins. anually.
People don't realize that all these big lawsuits against big corporations are actually paid by consumers.
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Unread 01-04-2008, 05:50 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elwood
No one here is, but if you give the politicians an inch, they will take a mile. The Dems. want complete control of our lives and health care is a good starting place. They can't just control a little, they want it all. Look at the SCHIP program. Their proposal would move people from private insurance to goverment care. That is wrong. Bush wanted a lower amount and the Dems. walked away.

Mark my words, if the Dems. get elected, they will push very hard for and probly get univeral or goverment controlled health care and when they do, look out, your paychecks will get taxed severely! Charlie Rangel has already proposed a 4 TRILLION dollar tax hike a few months ago and no one really picked up on it much. It is the Democratic plan. Listen to the candidates, they will admit they are going to raise our taxes!!
I guess I just don't expect that. Nothing drastic ever happens at the national level due to the compromises that have to take place. I'd never expect Huckabee's IRS elimination to get anywhere substantial. From what I've heard the AMA would never go for any major national healthcare system.
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Unread 01-04-2008, 06:25 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by kiksroks
this and something needs to be done to protect those who work in the industry from frivilous lawsuits that cost billions in liabilty ins. anually.
People don't realize that all these big lawsuits against big corporations are actually paid by consumers.
yeah like when companies pollute water sources and kill hundreds or make defective products that end up disfiguring someone for life. we have juries for a reason, if it is frivolous it is up to a jury, no other way makes sense

if we cap the amount a lawsuit can be fore, companies WILL compare the cost of those lawsuits compared to the cost of correcting the problem

it was done with gas tanks that would explode on impact, it was decided that installing a shield for the tank would cost more then the lawsuits, shield was like a $30 part but compared to the number of cars..... companies don't care, lawsuits are the only thing keeping them with what little honesty they have
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Unread 01-04-2008, 09:24 PM   #74
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All the people on here who want free health care I have the answer for you..

JOIN THE MILITARY!!!

of course then you be at the will of the veterans administration.. which by the way, is how your government funded socialized health care system will more then likely be modeled after.

I would let my father talk about how great the VA is.. but I cant. see He got a nasty little staff infection in one of their warehouses..opps I mean hospitals.. and he lingered for about a year in and out fighting the infection, eventually they had to remove his sternum. the bone was so infected that it looked like honeycomb.. Oh yeah.. this was about 6 months AFTER he went into renal failure and had to be on dialysis.. needless to say.. our governments own "socialized medicine" program and its "top notch" doctors and facilities pretty much killed my father as far as im concerned.

So if you want socialized medicine.. fine.. move to canada, or the Uk or any other country that offers that crap, because I would rather work my 3 jobs, and pay for my own health insurance and pick my doctors.. then be left to the mercy of a system that is only concerned about the bottom line.. not care of its patients.

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later

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Unread 01-04-2008, 11:16 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Scs748
yeah like when companies pollute water sources and kill hundreds or make defective products that end up disfiguring someone for life. we have juries for a reason, if it is frivolous it is up to a jury, no other way makes sense

if we cap the amount a lawsuit can be fore, companies WILL compare the cost of those lawsuits compared to the cost of correcting the problem

it was done with gas tanks that would explode on impact, it was decided that installing a shield for the tank would cost more then the lawsuits, shield was like a $30 part but compared to the number of cars..... companies don't care, lawsuits are the only thing keeping them with what little honesty they have

an example that i am familiar with:

swimming pool diving boards. everybody knows what they're for, right? now i would consider the inherent dangers common sense, wouldn't you? would anybody care to guess why i might have to charge nearly $100 for simple 2 bolt hardware kit, more than $3oo for a mounting kit consisting of a 2 part epoxy and 3 bolts, and cannot get liability insurance to cover my company working on them? (not cannot afford, cannot find) Good luck finding anybody reputable to install or repair you diving board guys.






































Its because little jimmy decided to dive a little to deep on a perfectly installed, brand new, flawless diving board and broke his neck and is now confined to a wheelchair.

The jury awarded his family 10 million dollars that was to be split 60/20/20 between:

the manufacturer, that had done nothing but supply a well built product that performed flawlessly.

the installer, who had correctly installed exactly what jimmy's dad had asked for.

and (this one gets me most) the pool service company, they had kept the pool clean and clear all summer, only thing they didn't do was warn jimmy or his parents about the danger of diving boards and the jury found that the parents had a "reasonable expectation" of such a warning. (out of business)

that is the type of lawsuit that i am referring to and it happens everyday in the medical industry. All of the players are insured from the mega drug companies to the local dentist. every time a claim is payed the rates go up and the only thing the players can do is raise prices to cover the overhead. that's the biggest reason drug prices get out of hand. that's mainly why surgeries cost so much.
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