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View Poll Results: who are you gonna vote for
Obama 11 15.71%
Huckabee 30 42.86%
other 26 37.14%
no one 3 4.29%
Voters: 70. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 01-04-2008, 12:27 PM   #46
ytodd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpie
...I simply said Europe's was better.
Not to hijack any further, but.....

I have an employee in the UK. He comes to the US at least once a year for work. When he does he schedules medical things while he is here. Why? Well, I asked him and he went into great detail about all the flaws and problems with the system in the UK. I am not so sure I would say it is better over there, then again, I am a realist. No system anywhere will ever be perfect, nor will it please everybody.

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Unread 01-04-2008, 12:28 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpoiledRotten
I was surprised to see Hillary come in last, but well pleased with it. I wish she would bow out while she still has her....hmmmmm.... pride? I don't think the world is ready for a Hillary to be back in the white house. I don't think it's ready for a John Edwards either.

I don't think she'll ever lose her pride (read: arrogance), but thank god she lost. Fortunately, with the way things are sounding, even though there's a 20% spread in the polls in CA (poll), I think Obama stands a realistic chance. Hell, Iowa's polls were 1. Obama 2. Clinton (by what, 2%?) 3. Edwards (poll), and look how it turned out
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Last edited by sharpie; 01-04-2008 at 12:39 PM..
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Unread 01-04-2008, 12:31 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpoiledRotten
I was surprised to see Hillary come in last, but well pleased with it. I wish she would bow out while she still has her....hmmmmm.... pride? I don't think the world is ready for a Hillary to be back in the white house. I don't think it's ready for a John Edwards either.
The problem is that the Iowa process is not any guarantee of eventual nominations. The * indicates who won the eventual nomination.

Two examples

1992 - Tom Harkin (76%) Paul Tsongas (4%), Bill Clinton* (3%), Bob Kerrey (2%) and Jerry Brown (2%)

1988 - **** Gephardt (31%) Paul Simon (27%), Michael Dukakis* (22%) and Bruce Babbitt (6%)

Two more

1988- Bob Dole (37%) Pat Robertson (25%), George H. W. Bush* (19%), Jack Kemp (11%) and Pete DuPont (7%)

1980- George H. W. Bush (32%) Ronald Reagan* (30%), Howard Baker (15%), John Connally (9%), Phil Crane (7%), John B. Anderson (4%) and Bob Dole (2%)
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Unread 01-04-2008, 12:38 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ytodd
Not to hijack any further, but.....

I have an employee in the UK. He comes to the US at least once a year for work. When he does he schedules medical things while he is here. Why? Well, I asked him and he went into great detail about all the flaws and problems with the system in the UK. I am not so sure I would say it is better over there, then again, I am a realist. No system anywhere will ever be perfect, nor will it please everybody.
There's flaws with the NHS (national health service) from what I hear. Like going to a clinic where "your" doctor is, is useless, but if you aren't picky about who treats you (they all have similar degrees if they are there), then you can walk into the NHS local and get treatment faster. (I'd like Kyoseki to either refute or support what I've heard)

But the fact remains, that when people need it, they get healthcare. They dont have to wait around till lawyers and insurance companies confirm their ailment, they get treatment. Even if they do have to wait longer, they ultimately get the help. Plus, I doubt anyone with a brain tumor has to wait too long. I'm sure it's triaged.

And most people you see coming to the U.S. for treatment do so for one of two reasons:

1. they are from a country that has little health infrastructure (cf. pakistan, india, etc.) to begin with, or

2. because it's cheaper for them. Why do you think people in England take the 5 hr flight to NYC so often? It's cheap for them, and then they can buy stuff here at half the normal cost. Their currency owns us (which is another story)
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Unread 01-04-2008, 12:57 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpie
There's flaws with the NHS (national health service) from what I hear. Like going to a clinic where "your" doctor is, is useless, but if you aren't picky about who treats you (they all have similar degrees if they are there), then you can walk into the NHS local and get treatment faster. (I'd like Kyoseki to either refute or support what I've heard)
There will be flaws with any system. I can speak only on what the guy I know told me. It was basically, long waits, lack of choice, and expensive. So he comes here when he can. I am sure that everybody's experience is not exactly the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpie
But the fact remains, that when people need it, they get healthcare. They dont have to wait around till lawyers and insurance companies confirm their ailment, they get treatment. Even if they do have to wait longer, they ultimately get the help. Plus, I doubt anyone with a brain tumor has to wait too long. I'm sure it's triaged.
I would not be so certain about your statements. My friend "needed" treatment, and due to issues with that system, chose to have it here. There must be reasons right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpie
And most people you see coming to the U.S. for treatment do so for one of two reasons:

1. they are from a country that has little health infrastructure (cf. pakistan, india, etc.) to begin with, or

2. because it's cheaper for them. Why do you think people in England take the 5 hr flight to NYC so often? It's cheap for them, and then they can buy stuff here at half the normal cost. Their currency owns us (which is another story)
1. My friends in Canada and UK come here. I would not rate them as "little health care infrastructure" countries.
2. According to my friends cost has nothing to due with it. Timeliness, and quality of care is why they come here.

You make sweeping statements....I think there is more there. It also seems like the grass is always greener right?

I am just saying.....
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Unread 01-04-2008, 01:10 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ytodd
There will be flaws with any system. I can speak only on what the guy I know told me. It was basically, long waits, lack of choice, and expensive. So he comes here when he can. I am sure that everybody's experience is not exactly the same.

I would not be so certain about your statements. My friend "needed" treatment, and due to issues with that system, chose to have it here. There must be reasons right?


1. My friends in Canada and UK come here. I would not rate them as "little health care infrastructure" countries.
2. According to my friends cost has nothing to due with it. Timeliness, and quality of care is why they come here.

You make sweeping statements....I think there is more there. It also seems like the grass is always greener right?

I am just saying.....
You're probably right about the grass is greener theory, however, I think we both speak from hearsay of others who've had experiences in other countries. Nothing wrong with that, but thus is the case. I have found unfortunately very little comparison from trustworthy sites between U.S. and U.K. healthcare, so there isn't really going to be a good solid answer between anyone that comments, save for someone who may have the numbers on hand.

I myself am not dissatisfied with my healthcare here (maybe because I don't often have to take advantage of it), I am merely dissatisfied that I pay a hefty premium for insurance, and when I actually do come up with an injury or ailment (such as breaking my arm while snowboarding, two hours from "my" hospital), that they cannot treat me nearby, because I am not on their healthcare, and that it would cost an arm and a leg (no pun intended) for them to treat me there.

No matter if people should have social welfare or not, as long as I pay my premium, shouldn't I be accepted anywhere?
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Unread 01-04-2008, 01:19 PM   #52
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I will take a stab at this one...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpie
No matter if people should have social welfare or not, as long as I pay my premium, shouldn't I be accepted anywhere?
Since we are not "socialized" when it comes to health care I don't think it is reasonable to expect the process you described to be seamless. I also think there are quite a few variables involved that are different from person to person, plan to plan, provider to provider. Your example sucks. I would be pissed if that happened to my family or myself. You were completely refused treatment?

My situation differed. We were on vacation, my wife got violently ill, we went to a hospital (1000 miles from home), presented our insurance and were treated. They worked out the payments and details with our provider and our portion was invoiced to our home address. (It happened to be exactly the amount our plan lists as charges for an out of network Emergency Room visit. $125). I was pleased with the service.
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Unread 01-04-2008, 01:38 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ytodd
I will take a stab at this one...



Since we are not "socialized" when it comes to health care I don't think it is reasonable to expect the process you described to be seamless. I also think there are quite a few variables involved that are different from person to person, plan to plan, provider to provider. Your example sucks. I would be pissed if that happened to my family or myself. You were completely refused treatment?

My situation differed. We were on vacation, my wife got violently ill, we went to a hospital (1000 miles from home), presented our insurance and were treated. They worked out the payments and details with our provider and our portion was invoiced to our home address. (It happened to be exactly the amount our plan lists as charges for an out of network Emergency Room visit. $125). I was pleased with the service.
In my case, I wasn't "refused" treatment, but my broken arm



was simply splinted, I was given two double-strength vicodin, and was sent down the mountains to my hospital (I didn't drive, my dad did. They knew at the original hospital that I needed surgery, and said they wouldn't do it. It then took my own healthcare provider four days to get me surgery for it.

As for your wife's situation, mine was a similar one in Paris, which I've spoke of before. They took her in (6k miles from home), got her an exam fast because she was so low on fluid that she looked like a ghost, and then asked for insurance after. She gave them her card and they waived the payment. They said it was going to be $20 or something for the IV, the 2000ml of fluid, and five days prescription each of pills for nausiea, diarrhea, and stomach cramps. They said it would cost more money in time to deal with her insurance, and that they just decided not to do it.
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Unread 01-04-2008, 01:39 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scs748
so who are gonna vote for?

I voted for Obama, We need good healthcare more then anything, even though i disagree with a lot of things about him like gun control, the health care is just too important and republicans aren't doing anything to fix it
I love how everybody jumps down your throat for wanting "free" healthcare. He never said free, he said good.

I'm for universal health coverage, how we get there I don't care, but I know healthcare is expensive and unaffordable without insurance and there are a lot of people without coverage. I want my President talking about solving this issue, not just saying the free market is working just as its supposed to and everything is dandy.
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Unread 01-04-2008, 01:58 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Varnish
I love how everybody jumps down your throat for wanting "free" healthcare. He never said free, he said good.

I'm for universal health coverage, how we get there I don't care, but I know healthcare is expensive and unaffordable without insurance and there are a lot of people without coverage. I want my President talking about solving this issue, not just saying the free market is working just as its supposed to and everything is dandy.
Healthcare is not operating in a free market. We can move to a more free market oriented system or to a socialized/universal coverage system. Either way costs will come down, but the question that remains is which will lead to better coverage, cheaper coverage. Universal will get everyone covered, but it certainly would not be fair to harm the majority of people who have great coverage for the sake of those few who don't. A Universal system will undoubtedly be inefficient because it will simply create another government bureaucracy. A plan that provides universal health insurance through the government (rather than a purely social plan) will mean that the rest of us who already pay for our own health care will then also have to pay for those of the lower classes who don't pay taxes.

A plan that removes government intrusion from Health care would also likely lower costs for all of us. More people will be able to afford basic health plans. Some people would still be uncovered, but much of that would be out of choice or stupidity. Currently the health insurance industry controls the entire health industry instead of the people.

What I find to be more important than the coverage issue is the health issue in general. American is unhealthy by choice. We are a nation of lazy fatasses who make bad life decisions. That needs to change. I will be the first to admit that my lifestyle could be much healthier, but on the other hand I believe my own health is my choice and therefore my own responsibility. Those of us who chose to be unhealthy must deal with the consequences on our own. Why should society be responsible for individuals poor decision making? That is simply not fair in any way. Of course there are emergencies and there is no way to stop that, but much of our health care costs are the result of our poor health. There is no excuse for any person in the United States to be ignorant about healthy living.

Unfortunately the gimmee now attitude will shape both sides of the debate and we probably end up with another mess just a few decades from now. Our health is a long term investment. Our habits now are laying the seeds for our health problems of the future. We all need to think about that.
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Unread 01-04-2008, 02:04 PM   #56
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Aren't we already paying for uninsured folks' coverage? I figure somebody with no insurance, no income, who gets a 20k emergency surgery and never pays it back is coming out of our pocket at some point. Plus the uninsured are probably less likely to get any preventive care to help reduce the need for catastrophic stuff down the line.

I guess I picture a government program to fill the gaps left by our current system.
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Unread 01-04-2008, 02:09 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glatt513
How about we all vote for the cantidate that drives a Jeep? (whomever might that be)
That would be Bill Richardson, has a Wrangler Unlimited I believe. Too bad more Dems don't back him.

And since we seem to have shifted to health care... I wouldn't lose any sleep if people were dying in the streets not being able to afford something. You don't have a right to free health care. There's plenty of other countries you can get it (even a few states I believe), go there. I'm sorry for anyone who has to pay a lot, but it doesn't change my mind. You can get health benefits working at freaking McDonalds.
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Unread 01-04-2008, 02:54 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpie
In my case, I wasn't "refused" treatment, but my broken arm was simply splinted, I was given two double-strength vicodin, and was sent down the mountains to my hospital (I didn't drive, my dad did. They knew at the original hospital that I needed surgery, and said they wouldn't do it. It then took my own healthcare provider four days to get me surgery for it.
Ouch on the arm. Looks like a similar break I had in the mid 80's resulting in a rod, two plates and a handfull of screws.

Was it that the hospital you first went to was not equipped to cover the surgery, or something else? I would think if it was simply a case of "we don't want to operate on you" it would open them up to litigation. You mention "down the mountains", was it a remote facility that was maybe not capable of dealing with more advanced care?

As far as your own health care provider taking four days, that is terrible. I don't however blame our whole system for the shortcomings of one provider.

Side note:
How is your arm now? When was the injury?
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Unread 01-04-2008, 03:13 PM   #59
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When I hear people talking about coming "down the mountain" or "out of the hills" I always picture someone riding down a narrow rocky path on a yak. I don't know why.
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Unread 01-04-2008, 03:26 PM   #60
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YAK???

I think I'm not touching that one!!!





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