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View Poll Results: who are you gonna vote for
Obama 11 15.71%
Huckabee 30 42.86%
other 26 37.14%
no one 3 4.29%
Voters: 70. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 01-04-2008, 07:42 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jclaude
How about if you are 33 years old and have had a heart condition since you where 21. Applied to and was rejected to over 10 different health care plans?

Then sign up for "chips" Basically the states health care plan, First monthly bill was $800.00. Not affordable. I did this for three months until I felt I couldn't draw out of my savings any more.

I make to much money to get on any "social plan".

You can't work any harder than I do. 80+ hours a week, outside in weather extremes.

I tend to agree with keeping most medical private, but there has to be some kind of help for people who are "working" and can not afford medical insurance!

Believe it or not, there are people in this country who work hard and live right that are on the short end of the stick when it comes to health care.

JC
One might argue if you "make too much money to get on any social plans" - the you probably could afford the $800 a month for your coverage. Its all about priorities. I know its difficult to see in this day and age - but in older generations, they had to make sacrifices. REAL sacrifices - maybe only 1 car and its old - or 1 TV if any at all.

Tell me this - how many $800 payments could you make if you added up all the computers, DVD players, IPods, and even your Jeep money?

Not trying to piss you off - but there are people that are truly destitiute - and they are the ones that benefit from the programs in place.

I am truly sorry for your condition - I guess my advice would be if you CAN work - get a job with a company with a group plan.... From 2003 to 2006 I tried the self-employment thing. Had 3 corporations going at once, and used the NASE for my medical coverage. Being overweight and high blood pressure. the medical coverage was a "rated" policy. Even so - for a family of 4, it was about $600/month. It would have been $375 for just me. Its not great coverage - but good coverage if something REALLY happened. Maybe want to look into that - start a small business, have your company pay the business as a consultant (since it sounds like you dont have benefits anyway) and then sign up with the NASE....

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Unread 01-04-2008, 07:46 AM   #32
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Instead of working harder, try working smarter. You obviously have a good work ethic, why not get a job that provides health insurance? Quit working your butt off for a job that has no benefits.

Seriously, you are the only one responsible for the situation you are in. If you are unhappy, only you have the power to change it.
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Unread 01-04-2008, 09:00 AM   #33
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I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. Medical care should not be a money issue. I don't want anything for free I just want coverage that is affordable.

I do respect your opinions on the subject I just don't agree with them.

JC
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Unread 01-04-2008, 09:36 AM   #34
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^ Without going into my own personal life, I'll just say that I agree with you, JC.

Given the two choices, I'd go with Obama. Huckabee either gives empty answers to important foreign policy questions (which Obama does, too, really) or comes across as a theocrat. A federal constitutional amendment banning gay marriage? Are you serious? Talk about pandering for votes over something that's really a meaningless issue. There's not one domestic social policy he has that isn't religiously motivated. I can't support a guy like that. Sorry.
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Unread 01-04-2008, 09:40 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jclaude
Medical care should not be a money issue.
The fact remains that there is no free lunch. Medical care is a service that costs. The questions/issues are how to control costs, and who pays for them. Some want the gubment to step in and handle it all. Yippee for everyone, except those who have to pay the costs. Remember, nothing is free.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jclaude
I don't want anything for free I just want coverage that is affordable.
I respect that desire, and I think we would all agree. The question is, how do we make it affordable, and who defines affordable. $800 a month is unfordable to you, but maybe not for somebody else. To some $100 a month is unfordable. I don't have the silver bullet to make a "system" that works for everybody, and I don't think anybody else does either. You can't please all the people all the time.
I can say that I have no desire to pay for myself and my family's health care, and your and yours. I also think the gubment is ill equipped to run health care.
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Unread 01-04-2008, 09:53 AM   #36
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I'm still not sure yet. Not a Democrat, that's for sure. I'm not for many socialized programs. I have yet to see a social program that's more efficient than in the private sector. Take out the money factor in medicine and there will no longer be a motivator to find new drugs, cures, etc.

Have you ever been in a hospital elsewhere in the world (not a military hospital)? I have, it's amazing. Not only are you treated in a timely manner, but the doctors are more friendly and the medicine is WAY cheaper. My girlfriend had to get pumped with 2000ml of fluid because she got the flu in Paris, France, and they wrote it off because it would have been a $10 copay or something. And all this was made possible by socialized medicine. There's something to be said in praise of social healthcare.
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Unread 01-04-2008, 10:14 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by sharpie
Have you ever been in a hospital elsewhere in the world (not a military hospital)? I have, it's amazing. Not only are you treated in a timely manner, but the doctors are more friendly and the medicine is WAY cheaper. My girlfriend had to get pumped with 2000ml of fluid because she got the flu in Paris, France, and they wrote it off because it would have been a $10 copay or something. And all this was made possible by socialized medicine. There's something to be said in praise of social healthcare.
I actually have spent some time in multiple countries around the world. I also work with several people who live in several countries around the world. Not to isolate France, but since you brought it up....

A few snippets from http://www.frenchentree.com/fe-healt...cle.asp?ID=197

"The French healthcare system is funded by the working population. French employees pay about 20 per cent of their gross salary – the self-employed pay even more - deducted at source, to fund the social security system, known as Sécurité sociale." Ouch, 20% of Gross

"Unlike the UK in France treatment, whether private or public, is not free at the point of delivery. Even if you subscribe to the Sécurité sociale, on seeing a doctor or specialist (specialiste) you first pay the full bill (tarif) and are then reimbursed at a later date (about 10 days). Generally speaking, Sécurité sociale refunds 70 per cent of the cost of a visit to a médecin traitant (a GP or family doctor) and most specialistes. " Ouch, you PAY first, then "generally" get refunded 70% later. I like my system much better so far.

Interesting read.
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Unread 01-04-2008, 10:22 AM   #38
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There are already medical programs for the poor. I know, one of my friends is now a leech to our tax dollars. Food stamps, Medicad, etc. etc.

Socialism is no good. There are so many people like my friend who have no problem taking the Governments hand out. Then once on these programs the incentive to do better is gone. If you can get cheap Government paid housing, free food, free medical, where is the incentive to do better in life. Have we forgotten to read our History books lately?

Obama has some smooth speech writers but I could never wrote for a Democrat unless Republicans got soft on allowing gun control. No matter what form of Government you have, man will always corrupt it. Our 2nd Amendment to me like Huckabee said is crucial to preventing tyranny.
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Unread 01-04-2008, 10:23 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ytodd
I actually have spent some time in multiple countries around the world. I also work with several people who live in several countries around the world. Not to isolate France, but since you brought it up....

A few snippets from http://www.frenchentree.com/fe-healt...cle.asp?ID=197

"The French healthcare system is funded by the working population. French employees pay about 20 per cent of their gross salary – the self-employed pay even more - deducted at source, to fund the social security system, known as Sécurité sociale." Ouch, 20% of Gross

"Unlike the UK in France treatment, whether private or public, is not free at the point of delivery. Even if you subscribe to the Sécurité sociale, on seeing a doctor or specialist (specialiste) you first pay the full bill (tarif) and are then reimbursed at a later date (about 10 days). Generally speaking, Sécurité sociale refunds 70 per cent of the cost of a visit to a médecin traitant (a GP or family doctor) and most specialistes. " Ouch, you PAY first, then "generally" get refunded 70% later. I like my system much better so far.

Interesting read.
Okay, so you do have to front the bill, but then you get most of it back. I understand it's still a flawed system, but the medicine is significantly cheaper there too. I don't want to a. hijack this thread or b. argue at lengths about this, but privatised medicine has done nothing to medicine prices except skyrocket them.

For the record though, I only used France because I was in the actual hospital with them. My roommates in London though had been to the hospital there on a few occasions. One worked there as an emergency room tech, and two others had lacerations treated.

Further, there was a girl in my class who needed anti-biotics in Germany and had similar care.
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Unread 01-04-2008, 10:35 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpie
Okay, so you do have to front the bill, but then you get most of it back. I understand it's still a flawed system, but the medicine is significantly cheaper there too. I don't want to a. hijack this thread or b. argue at lengths about this, but privatised medicine has done nothing to medicine prices except skyrocket them.

For the record though, I only used France because I was in the actual hospital with them. My roommates in London though had been to the hospital there on a few occasions. One worked there as an emergency room tech, and two others had lacerations treated.

Further, there was a girl in my class who needed anti-biotics in Germany and had similar care.
You're talking about simple things like cuts and medicine, things that a local clinic would handle here in the US. Try going to a country with socialized medicine and having a kidney transplant or wait for neurological surgery. I design high end operating rooms for specialized medicine and a lot of the work I do ends up in hospitals located in countries with socialized medicine... the difference between what they have and what we have here in the US is amazing. There's a reason why people put injured or almost dead children on planes heading to the US. There's a reason why on the higher level of severity we have some of the best healthcare on the planet.

When you see charts that rate the US healthcare rated 37th in the world by the WHO you need to pay attention to what that actually means. When you combine everything healthcare related and the UN's opinion of what healthcare should cost the US is rated in the 30s. When you talk about severe injury or health issues you can't find better treatment than here in the US.

We attact doctors from all of the world because we have the best healthcare and we pay for it. What do you think will happen to all those Drs if we inform them that healthcare is now run by the gov. and their pay will be dropping to a standard rate set by congress?
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The Mean Fish you seem to hate big business and love big government. My guess is you are drinking the coolaid that Pelosie, Reid, Barny Frank, Biden, and Obama are serving.
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Unread 01-04-2008, 10:41 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpie
Have you ever been in a hospital elsewhere in the world (not a military hospital)? I have, it's amazing. Not only are you treated in a timely manner, but the doctors are more friendly and the medicine is WAY cheaper. My girlfriend had to get pumped with 2000ml of fluid because she got the flu in Paris, France, and they wrote it off because it would have been a $10 copay or something. And all this was made possible by socialized medicine. There's something to be said in praise of social healthcare.
You've been in 1 or 2 hospitals in some other country and that gives you the right to say that doctors outside of the US are more friendly and treatment is timely compared to here?

You're so naive it's pathetic... until you find yourself in a hospital waiting room next to an old barefoot man with his goat on a leash you don't know anything about bad healthcare. When they take you into their OR and it has windows that open then you'll know something about bad healthcare.
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The Mean Fish you seem to hate big business and love big government. My guess is you are drinking the coolaid that Pelosie, Reid, Barny Frank, Biden, and Obama are serving.
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Unread 01-04-2008, 10:49 AM   #42
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Take a hard look at Thompson. He is the true conservative in the group. We need a well rounded President. Someone with good foreign AND domestic policies. Smaller government and more local control of our lives and our money.
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Unread 01-04-2008, 10:58 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by The Mean Fish
You've been in 1 or 2 hospitals in some other country and that gives you the right to say that doctors outside of the US are more friendly and treatment is timely compared to here?

You're so naive it's pathetic... until you find yourself in a hospital waiting room next to an old barefoot man with his goat on a leash you don't know anything about bad healthcare. When they take you into their OR and it has windows that open then you'll know something about bad healthcare.


Where did I ever say our healthcare was bad? You're a little eager to jump the gun there Ace, aren't you? I simply said Europe's was better. Hell, you even highlighted that for me.

And yes, it does mean I have the right to state my opinion based on personal experience(cause guess what, that's what it's called when you say someone is nicer - or in this case - not nicer than someone else). I'm pretty sure you think you're intimidating over the internet, but you're not. Oh wait, maybe I should retract my comments, else another personal attack on my loved ones comes about.

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Unread 01-04-2008, 11:04 AM   #44
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I voted for Huckabee, he is more aligned with my beliefs than anyone else seriously in the running. Electing Hillary would be a big mistake, it warmed my heart to see her come in dead last out of the three Democratic candidates.
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Unread 01-04-2008, 11:16 AM   #45
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I was surprised to see Hillary come in last, but well pleased with it. I wish she would bow out while she still has her....hmmmmm.... pride? I don't think the world is ready for a Hillary to be back in the white house. I don't think it's ready for a John Edwards either.
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