[LandRover]

The intent of this thread is NOT to stir the Christian/Athiest/Evolution/Creation pot again...

But since it's come up a lot in the past 6 months or so, I thought this would be a good read, especially for the Athiests in the bunch. I have often wondered about the hostility presented by some of the Athiests in our 'discussions' here...this artilcle asks the same question. It was written by a Rabbi. I thought it would be a fresh perspective. Read it, it's good. This statement sums it up, to me:

"To be called to a level of goodness and sacrifice so constantly and so patiently by a loving but demanding God may seem like a naive demand to achieve what is only a remote human possibility. However, such a vision need not be seen as a red flag to those who believe nothing."

Link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12498143/site/newsweek/

[ltmke11]

I dont believe in any god but I aint Angry, that Rabbi just needs to eat some hogs knuckle and get on with his life..

[TJVigilante]

I don't know if I'm included in the comment regarding "hostilities", but I don't like it when I'm called a "so-called intellectual" when I'm being lectured by someone describing a piece of fruit and saying it's empirical evidence that God must exist. If you're going to argue something, use the tools that the scientists use and prove without a doubt the existence of God, don't look at a rock and say "hey, that's a rather symmetrical crystal there, it must have been made by an intelligent creator." That kind of argument is garbage...either prove his existence or stop trying to convert people who actually desire to learn about the world they're living in rather than taking it for granted as a creation of a higher power.

[War Eagle]

I'm not an angry Atheist so I guess I'm not one of the people he's addressing, but he seems to think that Atheists believe life has no purpose or hope. I couldn't disagree more.

[HawkeyeWJ]

Originally Posted by TJVigilante

I don't know if I'm included in the comment regarding "hostilities", but I don't like it when I'm called a "so-called intellectual" when I'm being lectured by someone describing a piece of fruit and saying it's empirical evidence that God must exist. If you're going to argue something, use the tools that the scientists use and prove without a doubt the existence of God, don't look at a rock and say "hey, that's a rather symmetrical crystal there, it must have been made by an intelligent creator." That kind of argument is garbage...either prove his existence or stop trying to convert people who actually desire to learn about the world they're living in rather than taking it for granted as a creation of a higher power.

^ x2. I should've said amen....but that would have been construed as sarcastic perhaps

[Ubie]

It seems to me the Rabbi is confusing anger toward god with anger toward percieved intentional stupidity. I get angry with evengelical christians because they often come off as incredibly stupid, and i don't deal well with stupid people. i have several friends that i can have rational, well thought out discussions with about our respective beliefs. I hold no anger for them, or their god (how can i be angry with something i don't believe exists?) though i disagree with their beliefs.

And for the record, i'm Agnostic. In other words, i admit i don't know if there is some kind of supreme creator(s?), although i disbelieve that any religion on earth is correct, or even on the right track. Personally, i lean toward something, but i have no idea what that something is, or its intentions if it has any.

[LandRover]

I'm not addressing anybody here specifically, I just thought it was a well written article that sums up some of my feelings.

As far as the "prove it or shut up" philosophy... using science to prove God's existance, if it could be done, would sort of take the whole faith component out of the picture, no? The same argument could be made for proving that there is no God. I mean, we haven't been able to use science to prove evolution either. We've been down that road. Science is limited by man's intellect. Man's intellect will never be able to prove God exists because humans will never shut the door on other options. Someone will always have a counter-theory, even if 'proof' is discovered.

I just find it interesting that Christian faith is so threatening to Athiests. Rather than accept the fact that Christians believe in something which might be true, they are seen as 'intentionally stupid.' Whereas most Christians accept the fact that Athiests believe something different, even though from a Christian perspective, Atheism is about as 'intentionally stupid' as it gets.

[WhtJeep]

Originally Posted by TJVigilante

I don't know if I'm included in the comment regarding "hostilities", but I don't like it when I'm called a "so-called intellectual" when I'm being lectured by someone describing a piece of fruit and saying it's empirical evidence that God must exist. If you're going to argue something, use the tools that the scientists use and prove without a doubt the existence of God, don't look at a rock and say "hey, that's a rather symmetrical crystal there, it must have been made by an intelligent creator." That kind of argument is garbage...either prove his existence or stop trying to convert people who actually desire to learn about the world they're living in rather than taking it for granted as a creation of a higher power.

well said.

[AMK]

Originally Posted by Ubie

And for the record, i'm Agnostic. In other words, i admit i don't know if there is some kind of supreme creator(s?), although i disbelieve that any religion on earth is correct, or even on the right track. Personally, i lean toward something, but i have no idea what that something is, or its intentions if it has any.

There seems to be more people who claim to be "agnostic" that have no idea what it means than there are Christians who use ridiculous logic to try to prove their argument.

Most people, like you, confuse agnosticism with weak atheism. I recommend reading Huxley, the man who coined the term in the late 1800s.

[LandRover]

Originally Posted by TJVigilante

I don't know if I'm included in the comment regarding "hostilities", but I don't like it when I'm called a "so-called intellectual" when I'm being lectured by someone describing a piece of fruit and saying it's empirical evidence that God must exist. If you're going to argue something, use the tools that the scientists use and prove without a doubt the existence of God, don't look at a rock and say "hey, that's a rather symmetrical crystal there, it must have been made by an intelligent creator." That kind of argument is garbage...either prove his existence or stop trying to convert people who actually desire to learn about the world they're living in rather than taking it for granted as a creation of a higher power.

You're generalizing. Christians want to understand the world they're living in just as much as non-Christians. What Christian scientists see as proof of a Creator you see as something man just hasn't figured out yet. You're both right.
From a Christian perspective, looking at our scientific world after you have accepted the fact that it was created by God leads to more disovery and understanding than science will ever acheve. From a Scientific perspective, taking anything on faith is rediculous. Which is why it's so weird to Christians that evolution is accepted among scientists. It's as much of a leap of faith as creation is.

[ltmke11]

There are probably very few atheiest (who belive in nothing) I believe something happend to create our solar system, sun, planets, etc, but I serioulsy doubt the version brought to you by the same folks who thought the world was flat and who were just a little brighter than the sun worshipers...

[HawkeyeWJ]

Originally Posted by LandRover

I mean, we haven't been able to use science to prove evolution either. We've been down that road. Science is limited by man's intellect.

We should ask whales why some of them have hip bones then when they clearly have no hips. Please use Jesus to help explain against the fact that whales with hip bones have EVOLVED from something that no longer needed them. Saying that evolution has not been proved is about the most uneducated thing you could possibly state any time in the last 10 years. I'm sure this little ditty of a comment from me will open up a can of worms to say the least but a net forum is hardly the place to conduct a worthy arguement for or against this topic as a whole. I told myself I wouldn't get dragged into this topic. Much too frustrating...I will stay out now. I used to believe a long time ago, then I became more aware.... peace

[Awshux]

Good article. When I lived in Washington State, there was a weekly TV show on the public access channel there which was nothing more than a half-hour of athiests sitting around a table discrediting passages of the Bible. I always wondered what their motivation was, and why they spent so much time trying to discredit something that they didn't even believe in.

[trailboss]

Who gives a crap....when each of us dies....each of us finds out the truth....

[Ubie]

Originally Posted by kapplera

There seems to be more people who claim to be "agnostic" that have no idea what it means than there are Christians who use ridiculous logic to try to prove their argument.

Most people, like you, confuse agnosticism with weak atheism. I recommend reading Huxley, the man who coined the term in the late 1800s.

For the record, definition 1b from Dictionary.com



One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.