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Unread 02-17-2012, 08:18 PM   #31
speedbucket
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperWade2 View Post
No worries, I'm just being feisty tonight, I'm not really butthurt... and I'm surely not condoning or supporting the news piece, and can admit that we have our fair share of "different folks" in CA... just not all of us!

After Googling the dude, I found posts he was looking for people on unmodified Jeeps trying to cause a stir, and the whole 'Chrysler refused our request for comment..." stuff is just sensationalism, trying to imply that they are covering something up... typical news garbage, which is why I rarely watch any.
The "butthurt" edit was moreso mine. I know some quality west coast folks, hell, my wifes from Vegas. The Guy is probably the same Guy that goes banging on the door of the widow after the police walk back to the car. Its been over 3 years since I've watched the news. We have lots of morons here too. One news guy in particular calls himself the road warrior, he chases down cars making illegal uturns, blowing stop signs and passing in the emergency lane etc.. then he calls them out on it and puts them on TV for embarrassment. Well he got a DUI last year

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Unread 02-18-2012, 12:58 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by YJames90 View Post
If you build bridges dont take this personally
THAT was a splendid video! My thanks to you! [+1] It was eerie, haunting, scary, daunting, and yet totally cool at the same time. And the gentleman who saved the dog - good on him!

I think the bigger point is that this stuff always happens: whether on a bridge, a building, the drivetrain of a car, or any other mechanical structure ever devised. Every solid object has a resonant frequency that will tear it apart.

Ever seen a singer shatter a glass with a note? I haven't (in person), but I know it's possible. Same principle.

Hey - let's have more scientific discussions!
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Unread 02-18-2012, 01:09 AM   #33
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I figured I should just state this;

My dad, uncle, and me all have wranglers (my dad, 99 TJ; my uncle, 93 YJ; me, 02 TJ) and NONE of us have had death wobble; and all of our jeeps are lifted. My dads was stock for a while; and he NEVER had issues with DW, because he always kept up on maintenance. I also had a 96 ZJ that was stock; and DID get DW, but because a wheel was bent. Before and after the bent wheel; it was fine.

I should also mention I know a few local guys who have JKs who have NOT had DW either; some of them are lifted too.
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Unread 02-18-2012, 01:20 AM   #34
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It's a fact!

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Originally Posted by TroubleNEO View Post
I'm not bashing anyone to cover up the truth. DW can happen on SFA vehicles, it's a fact. Far too many people are completely disconnected from the act of driving.
OK, folks - let's just re-read what the nice individual said:

Not bashing anyone.
Not covering up truth.
DW (also known as resonance) can occur in all SFA (solid front axle) systems.
Many people don't know enough about cars to reliably identify and diagnose problems.

Am I wrong in this summary?

If you disagree with my assessment please PM me (just to keep it off the thread); otherwise, I think we have to admit that drivetrain resonance happens in complex mechanical systems and, as TroubleNEO states, it is easily prevented with some common sense.
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Unread 02-18-2012, 06:06 AM   #35
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I agree completely. Sorry guys for being an *** about it, but those 3 points were made in my post and I got waaaaaaaay off track. And dw is not limited too, but more prone on solid axle vehicles. The problem with the ifs vehicles is you don't get a chance to fix it after it happens because the front end will rip apart.
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Unread 02-18-2012, 06:52 AM   #36
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Hey we're all guys who love our Jeeps and the life experiences and joy they bring us. Life's short, lets just get along and let the anger and strife happen in other parts of our lives and the world.

The "Jeep/Wheeling" part of my life is one of my only stress free escapes and I try to keep it that way as much as possible.
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Unread 02-18-2012, 10:14 AM   #37
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I don't think you're an ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by speedbucket View Post
I agree completely. Sorry guys for being an *** about it, but those 3 points were made in my post and I got waaaaaaaay off track. And dw is not limited too, but more prone on solid axle vehicles. The problem with the ifs vehicles is you don't get a chance to fix it after it happens because the front end will rip apart.
Yes, resonant vibrations will destroy things: q.v. the awesome bridge video.

One of the interesting things about the steering system in the JK is that it uses the "Recirculating Ball" method. Hydraulics are incompressible, but it is possible to incorporate relief tanks to smoothe out pressure in the system. With a pure mechanical linkage like recirculating ball, no damping is possible.

Personally, I like it. I'd rather have a bullet-proof steering and transmission than a sloppy automatic slushbox.

Last edited by IDRIS; 02-18-2012 at 10:24 AM.. Reason: dang -typo!
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Unread 02-19-2012, 01:36 PM   #38
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If you aren't new to driving, you can handle it. Try driving after a fresh lift, all the way to the alignment shop. That's a scary ride.
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Unread 02-19-2012, 01:51 PM   #39
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Finally watched the video, so typical of Chrysler to deny any and all blame. That's what their best at. I wish to God someone else besides Chrysler would buy the Jeep name, their craftsmanship and customer service is some of the worst around.
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Unread 02-19-2012, 04:47 PM   #40
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The story does at least bring the issue to a public discussion. It has been referred to on NPR radio as well. Hopefully, it will result in Chrysler upgrading their TSB and dealer tech training on how to simply fix the source(s) of the problem.

Here is the primary problem with all JKs (stock or lifted):

Chyrsler uses fully threaded, 14 mm trackbar bolts in brackets and bushing sleeves designed for 9/16" bolts:




They don't even used a shouldered bolt.

With the bolt loose in the bushing sleeves, there is looseness in the front end already.

If the torque specs of the front trackbar back off even a little from the 125 ft. lbs. recommended, the 14 mm bolts have way too much play in the stock bracket holes.

This wallows out the stock bracket holes when DW occurs.

It becomes so violent that it damages the lower ball joints, the axle side front upper control arm bushings, the drag link and tie rod ends, the trackbar bushings, and in some cases, cracks/rips the axle side front trackbar bracket from the frame.

Jeep needs to do at least a TSB on JKs and replace at least the front trackbar bolts with shouldered, 9/16" Grade 8, fine thread bolts that actually fit the trackbar bracket bolt holes and bushing sleeves.

Instead, their TSB instructs dealer techs to mask the problem with a larger steering stabilizer. As the story reports, they eventually fail as well when the true source(s) are not properly repaired.

Here is my JK write-up thread with and inspection checklist:

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f96/d...bbles-1052221/
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Unread 02-28-2012, 09:02 PM   #41
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Does this happen in CJs or YJs, or just more recently made vehicles?
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Unread 02-28-2012, 11:14 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by YJSteveD View Post
Does this happen in CJs or YJs, or just more recently made vehicles?
It isn't the same as with a coil sprung suspension. Death Wobble is fairly simple to fix through a process of elimination with a comprehensive inspection.

CJs and YJs can have really bad wobble issues from worn or disintegrated bushings. They can have bad steering issues due to worn tie rod ends, worn drag link ends, or a bad steering box.

YJs came with trackbars--which is a complete disaster. The trackbars only allow the axle to travel in an arc, while the leaf springs try to force the axle to travel up-and-down. The combination of the trackbars and leaf springs fighting against each other ruins the ride. One of the first things that YJ owners do to improve the ride is remove the trackbars. A loose trackbar, or one with worn bushings on left on a YJ will cause all sorts of problems.
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Unread 02-28-2012, 11:29 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planman View Post
It isn't the same as with a coil sprung suspension. Death Wobble is fairly simple to fix through a process of elimination with a comprehensive inspection.

CJs and YJs can have really bad wobble issues from worn or disintegrated bushings. They can have bad steering issues due to worn tie rod ends, worn drag link ends, or a bad steering box.

YJs came with trackbars--which is a complete disaster. The trackbars only allow the axle to travel in an arc, while the leaf springs try to force the axle to travel up-and-down. The combination of the trackbars and leaf springs fighting against each other ruins the ride. One of the first things that YJ owners do to improve the ride is remove the trackbars. A loose trackbar, or one with worn bushings on left on a YJ will cause all sorts of problems.
I'm sort of new to jeeps, got my YJ back in december. What are the cons of taking off the track bar? I use mine as a DD, will it cause any problems on the road or highway?
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Unread 02-29-2012, 08:16 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by YJSteveD View Post
I'm sort of new to jeeps, got my YJ back in december. What are the cons of taking off the track bar? I use mine as a DD, will it cause any problems on the road or highway?
You probably won't notice the difference other than a softer ride.

Go to the YJ section of the forum and read the FAQ in the stickies area:

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f12/

Also, here is a search in that section for "trackbar" (not all the threads will directly discuss what you are asking, but some will):

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/searc...rchid=14284370
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Unread 03-01-2012, 01:46 AM   #45
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To answer some of your questions.

Yes, i do work for a KGO-TV , I thought my user name would be enough disclosure about who I am, but apparently some people believe that I was trying to be deceptive. I can assure you that I was not. I thought other Jeep owners might be interested in my story. Obviously Jeep owners are passionate about their vehicles. I know, I've had three Jeeps (65CJ ,92YJ, and now drive an 06TJ), that's my jeep in the story shaking on hwy 101. If you haven't experienced DW, you don't want to. Like many people I went online to find the source of my DW and was suprised to see how many people also experienced this problem. The issue here is not that DW can be fixed, it is that people continue to buy these vehicles and Jeep refuses to acknowledge or inform consumers that there is a potentially dangerous problem. As I mentioned in the story, hundreds of people have complained about this condition to NHTSA, I also have received emails and phone calls from around the globe since this story aired. Many from frustrated Jeep drivers who have experienced DW. Therefore, I think it's important for people to be educated about possible problems. That said, I hear what has been said here, and have been adding it to my list of things to followup on going forward. I do appreciate your input, keep it coming. I will take it in to consideration when writing any follow-ups. -Ken
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