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Unread 11-06-2013, 11:55 AM   #76
mike_dippert
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy View Post

Internet myth. It was an email myth before the internet. A mailing myth before then.
Paleantologists have actually found cave painting that decipher to "Ooog. Oooog. You no make own spear Ooog. If Ooog use homemade spear it go badly in court of rock. Buy my spear Ooog. It's professional spear. Judge say professional spear OK to stab people, but not homemade spear."

No-one I've ever seen post it has ever been post a single case where it has ever been a factor in any ruling ever made.
Civil court, not criminal. Maybe I used the wrong term for the "offense".

I'll look back to see if I can find the case I read about. I didn't read about it on the internet either. It was published in a book witten by Massad Ayoob. I don't remember if he was an expert witness for that one or not. I did look up more details about it on my own b/c I was interested.

Everybody is so interested in not going to jail they forget ALL about civil suits putting them on the streets.

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Unread 11-06-2013, 01:29 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_dippert View Post
I didn't say anything about criminal court. Maybe I should have said prosecuting attorney, instead of prosecutor (city/county/state). I'm talking solely about civil court. I've read about cases where the defendant was cleared in criminal court, just to lose everything in civil court.
Criminal court is cut and dry. Was the shooting justifiable self defense? Civil court is where the gloves come off. The (shooting) victim's family finds the sleaziest lawyer in an effort to get every last penny from you (or your insurance).
In some states, like FL, being cleared for self defence makes you immune to civil suits related to the shooting. Other states that dont have a law on the books spelling it out may have case law with the same effect.
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Unread 11-06-2013, 01:41 PM   #78
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In some states, like FL, being cleared for self defence makes you immune to civil suits related to the shooting. Other states that dont have a law on the books spelling it out may have case law with the same effect.
And in other states there are no laws or precedents protecting the shooter. I'm talking to them.

I'm just telling people to be aware. Ignorance is never a good excuse. If someone is at risk of a civil suit and hadn't thought past criminal court, I'm sure they appriciate my post.

When I first became interested in carrying, I read many books from respected experts with first hand experience in different areas of self defense. I'll listen to (and repeat) these guys' advice before anything I read from John Smith on the interwebz. I'm still adding to my library and expanding my knowledge base. So far, none of the legal advice contradicts itself. They all say to be aware of (and follow) the laws in the jurisdiction you're in. They relay factual info of different places saying, "this is the kind of thing to be aware of." That's all I'm doing here, so get off my nuts.
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Originally Posted by HurricaneRZA View Post
JF taught me that the 2.5L, Ax-5 and D35 together are so powerful that angels weep when I shift into 4LO.
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The only thing a bicycle inner tube is good for, is tying a knot in the end of when you run out of condoms.
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Unread 11-06-2013, 02:09 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_dippert View Post
And in other states there are no laws or precedents protecting the shooter. I'm talking to them.

I'm just telling people to be aware. Ignorance is never a good excuse. If someone is at risk of a civil suit and hadn't thought past criminal court, I'm sure they appriciate my post.

When I first became interested in carrying, I read many books from respected experts with first hand experience in different areas of self defense. I'll listen to (and repeat) these guys' advice before anything I read from John Smith on the interwebz. I'm still adding to my library and expanding my knowledge base. So far, none of the legal advice contradicts itself.
It is important to understand the law in your state. In MO if you are found innocent in criminal court and the opposition still wants to go after you in civil they need to fund it. If they win in civil court then they can recoup that expense. In Missouri there have been stories making the new where the bad guy breaks in, the resident shoots and kills the bad guy and charger are not even filled against the good guy.

Law in my state is on the side of the good guy. I can shoot you if you break in, I don't need to prove anything other than that. As far as protecting yourself or others (outside the home) you can use deadly force against a threat (deadly or cause great physical harm to include rape) the test is intent, opportunity and ability. This isnít as cut and dry as if somebody breaks in.
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Unread 11-06-2013, 02:19 PM   #80
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One last thing.
The Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry
The Gun Digest Book of Combat Gunnery
Both are written by Massad Ayoob.
Both are EXCELLENT resources for gun ownership and the carry lifestyle. I read them both before even buying my first gun. There are others but those two cover the bulk of the info.

Also, didn't have a clue who Massad was before buying those books.
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Quote:
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JF taught me that the 2.5L, Ax-5 and D35 together are so powerful that angels weep when I shift into 4LO.
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The only thing a bicycle inner tube is good for, is tying a knot in the end of when you run out of condoms.
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Unread 11-06-2013, 04:39 PM   #81
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It's pretty simple fellas. Train with reloads and use factory loads for duty/defense.
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Unread 11-06-2013, 06:21 PM   #82
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When have you seen or heard of anybody who received a greater sentence or was convicted for using hand loaded (legal) rounds? I am not saying use or not use reloads, but I think it is a myth that using hand loaded rounds will get you in more trouble.

That would be saying it is wrong to use a .45 instead of a .22 because .45 make bigger deeper holes and kills worse.

It is a prosecutorís job to spin everything, same as the defending lawyers. That is what lawyers do.
I havent heard of a case where handloads have been used but Harold Fish was convicted of murder and the jurors said the prosecutor convinced them that Fish was up to no good carrying an unusually powerful gun (10mm) and those evil hollow point bullets. Fish's defense was not very good IMHO.

http://armedandsafe.blogspot.com/200...-for-whom.html
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Unread 11-06-2013, 06:33 PM   #83
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This won't kill or incapacitate quickly enough for a self defense situation.

If you read above you will see I don't take gelatin test seriously. Even using a gelatin test I am curious how far the round would have penetrated with a layer or two of clothing on?

Nothing wrong with experimentation, just as long if the testing is at least somewhat realistic.
These are all things I would like to test. I agree that gelatin testing is far from perfect but it does give a quantifiable result.

As to the layers of clothing, I think these would have little to no impact. As I said before, it does not break up instantly even at 4200FPS. I was actually able to test this against a small bit of Kevlar body armor. It was just a small sample scrap, and I shot 3 9mm bullets into it before I tested the .22-250, but it stopped the 9mm fmj with no issue and the .22-250 came out the other side. Unfortunately I did not have paper setup behind it to see what condition it was in and I have no source for more Kevlar.

And when I said penetration was a bit shallow, I am not talking about buckshot shallow. These were making it to around 10". I will see if I can find the pictures because I can tell you they looked nasty.

I actually agree with you though. I think the most effective defense rounds make two holes. One on the way in and one on the way out.
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Unread 11-06-2013, 07:10 PM   #84
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These are all things I would like to test. I agree that gelatin testing is far from perfect but it does give a quantifiable result.

As to the layers of clothing, I think these would have little to no impact. As I said before, it does not break up instantly even at 4200FPS. I was actually able to test this against a small bit of Kevlar body armor. It was just a small sample scrap, and I shot 3 9mm bullets into it before I tested the .22-250, but it stopped the 9mm fmj with no issue and the .22-250 came out the other side. Unfortunately I did not have paper setup behind it to see what condition it was in and I have no source for more Kevlar.

And when I said penetration was a bit shallow, I am not talking about buckshot shallow. These were making it to around 10". I will see if I can find the pictures because I can tell you they looked nasty.

I actually agree with you though. I think the most effective defense rounds make two holes. One on the way in and one on the way out.
If you testing rounds that are going 4000 fps we are not talking handguns, shotguns or rounds used in a gun you would use to defend your home.
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Unread 11-06-2013, 08:11 PM   #85
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If you testing rounds that are going 4000 fps we are not talking handguns, shotguns or rounds used in a gun you would use to defend your home.
I am not sure you are following along. I mentioned the experiment in response to a comment about using an AR15 for home defense.

I started with the .22-250 because if it didn't work at 4000 fps it wasn't going to work at 3000 and the bolt action is so much easier to work with.
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Unread 11-06-2013, 10:25 PM   #86
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I've been doing more research into preferred loads for .223 for home defense, found some interesting ballistic tests. A light-weight soft point or hollow-point seems a mediocre choice for home defense. Underpenetration is more of a concern for me as I do more research. The issue I'm reading about is that the much-higher velocities cause even the heavier .223 rounds to come apart quickly with their first impact. The heavier bullet weight with lower velocity from a pistol seems to typically penetrate further. So I'm re-evaluating my choice in ammo but I still think the weapon is an excellent choice.

So my concern for multiple-wall penetration is being alleviated a little. There are number of factors I hadn't considered. I guess it always pays to do research.

Sorry for the OT, OP.
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Unread 11-07-2013, 06:23 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Coyotes97 View Post
I havent heard of a case where handloads have been used but Harold Fish was convicted of murder and the jurors said the prosecutor convinced them that Fish was up to no good carrying an unusually powerful gun (10mm) and those evil hollow point bullets. Fish's defense was not very good IMHO.

http://armedandsafe.blogspot.com/200...-for-whom.html
They would also probably try to convenience a jury that because you practice regular you are a gun freak and out to kill somebody.
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Unread 11-07-2013, 06:25 AM   #88
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I am not sure you are following along. I mentioned the experiment in response to a comment about using an AR15 for home defense.

I started with the .22-250 because if it didn't work at 4000 fps it wasn't going to work at 3000 and the bolt action is so much easier to work with.

Ok, post the results when you find out.
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"If you aim at nothing, you will hit it every time." Zig Ziglar
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Unread 11-07-2013, 07:29 AM   #89
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I am not sure you are following along. I mentioned the experiment in response to a comment about using an AR15 for home defense.
OPs question was asked/answered. IMO it's great that the thread is drifting into other info now. Learning is occurring

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Originally Posted by billzcat1 View Post
I've been doing more research into preferred loads for .223 for home defense, found some interesting ballistic tests. A light-weight soft point or hollow-point seems a mediocre choice for home defense. Underpenetration is more of a concern for me as I do more research. The issue I'm reading about is that the much-higher velocities cause even the heavier .223 rounds to come apart quickly with their first impact. The heavier bullet weight with lower velocity from a pistol seems to typically penetrate further. So I'm re-evaluating my choice in ammo but I still think the weapon is an excellent choice.

So my concern for multiple-wall penetration is being alleviated a little. There are number of factors I hadn't considered. I guess it always pays to do research.

Sorry for the OT, OP.
Barnes TSX bullets are widely regarded as the best bullets out there for duty/defensive use. TSX 50gr, 55gr, 62gr, and 70gr are all good choices based on barrel length, engagement distance, etc. Overpenetration need not be your first concern, but it is something to be wary of. FYI, there's been tests where buckshot has penetrated multiple layers of wallboard...just like a centerfire projectiles. A common topic talked about in shoothouse training is knowing the structure - ie - knowing your target's backdrop and what's beyond it.

Back to the OPs question, I forgot to post this earlier. Look at what the pros use for close quarters work. Rifles (short barreled usually) and pistols. HRT, SRT, SWAT, SOG, etc teams (and SOF abroad) choose these based on some of the factors that have been talked about in this thread.

If you've ever watched a ballistic breach: the breacher moves to the front of the stack, shoots the hinges or knob, holds while his team moves, slings the shotgun shoulders a rifle, and enters the room in the rear of the stack.

This is a clue
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Unread 11-07-2013, 07:43 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Munch520 View Post
OPs question was asked/answered. IMO it's great that the thread is drifting into other info now. Learning is occurring



Barnes TSX bullets are widely regarded as the best bullets out there for duty/defensive use. TSX 50gr, 55gr, 62gr, and 70gr are all good choices based on barrel length, engagement distance, etc. Overpenetration need not be your first concern, but it is something to be wary of. FYI, there's been tests where buckshot has penetrated multiple layers of wallboard...just like a centerfire projectiles. A common topic talked about in shoothouse training is knowing the structure - ie - knowing your target's backdrop and what's beyond it.

Back to the OPs question, I forgot to post this earlier. Look at what the pros use for close quarters work. Rifles (short barreled usually) and pistols. HRT, SRT, SWAT, SOG, etc teams (and SOF abroad) choose these based on some of the factors that have been talked about in this thread.

If you've ever watched a ballistic breach: the breacher moves to the front of the stack, shoots the hinges or knob, holds while his team moves, slings the shotgun shoulders a rifle, and enters the room in the rear of the stack.

This is a clue
You are talking about a trained team clearing a room. This is very different than a home owner reacting to a bump or thump in the night. The two are not comparable.
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