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Unread 11-05-2013, 10:52 PM   #61
Coyotes97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billzcat1 View Post
I'm not sure how much I can contribute to the conversation that hasn't already been said. After all, everyone is going to come in and say they like what they have. BUT I was in the same boat as the OP about 2 weeks ago so I'll contribute what I picked from and why I did what I did.

I'd been looking for a new hobby. Jeeping and car modding is my long time love but realistically it is too expensive for me to keep it up as a "let's do this in my spare time" kind of gig. I grew up shooting but got out of it when I went to college. Eventually got married and my wife asked me to sell our rifles (which I hadn't touched in 10 years). So I did. Well fast forward two years and she's asking ME to get something to protect the family with.

Some of the factors for me -
I wanted accuracy. I'd previously shot rifles, handguns, and shotguns so I knew a bit about each. I like rifles. I'm useless with a pistol.
I wanted something easy for either of us to handle. So the .300 Win Mag Savage I was eyeballing was out.
I wanted something compact enough to handle inside. I got quickly talked out of a 12 gauge because there's no way to handle it inside - can't bring it to bear around a corner or doorway.
I wanted cheap ammo. So I could practice a lot and go out shooting with friends without spending a dollar every time it goes bang. When you need 200 rounds just to break in a barrel, ammo costs rack up quickly.
I wanted something that was going to be less dangerous around the kiddos. Accidents are a lot more common with handguns. Obviously that can be mitigated with safety precautions but statistics are statistics.

I wound up quickly deciding on an AR-15 carbine - spent a bit more on the weapon than I originally planned but it meets all of the above criteria. In terms of energy/penetration, we're a whole order of magnitude above a pistol or even a .22LR rifle. Ammo is between $0.35 and $0.50 a round for FMJ plinking rounds, plus I have a mag packed with hollow-points for home defense (so I don't penetrate 2 walls and put a round into the neighbor's house).

As far as deterrence - it is scary as ****. The charging handle is a little less intimidating than a pump-action but I prefer the quiet *snick* of the safety.

And lastly... it is extremely fun to shoot. The hobby/mod potential is limitless - you can keep it simple and have a great gun or you can add lights and lasers, optics, bipod, go all "tacticool" and that's going to be pretty scary to your potential intruder. So if you want a fun, reliable plinking gun that works for home defense and even small-game hunting (anything smaller than a deer, really), then an AR-15 in .223/5.56mm is an excellent choice.

PS - I also considered an AK in 7.62x39. I didn't like the overall feel of the AK platform, didn't like the safety. I thought it would be too heavy and too much a handful for my wife to shoot - she was a little intimidated by the AR at first but doubly so for the AK. Plus all the ones I handled had a longer length of pull than I liked, felt unwieldy. Shoots nice though, and makes a lot bigger holes than a .223. Hollow-points level the playing field a little.
Many people will tell you that a rifle like your AR is unacceptable for home defense as the bullet will penetrate your house, the neighbors house, etc. I am not one of those people, yet.

I am doing some experimentation (I am a handloader) with very light, fragile bullets loaded to the highest velocities I am comfortable with. I started with my .22-250 loaded with a 40 gr v-max bullet at over 4200 fps as a proof of concept. It has been enlightening. At that speed, with those fragile bullets, a piece of cardboard will cause the bullet to destabilize and shatter into relatively harmless fragments. Bear in mind that the bullet is spinning at ~250,000 RPM when it leaves the barrel.

Through my 14.5" AR-15, I am not getting 4200FPS and I never will. The .22-250 has a lot more powder, safely operates at higher pressures, and enjoys a foot more barrel. I am settling in on about 3100FPS from the AR. I have yet to test it against wallboard. While the AR has a disadvantage in speed, the bullet leaves the muzzle of the 1:7 twist barrel spinning at over 300,000 RPM!

Surprisingly, accuracy is decent with the 40 gr bullets from my 1:7 twist barrel. I will be posting some youtube vids if the experiment proves successful.

I will take a second to point out that, even if my theory holds water and use of this bullet type proves "safe", meaning nothing but fragments will come through a sheet of wallboard, it does not mean a prosecutor won't have a field day with your use of an "assault rifle" for home defense. Something to think about.

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Unread 11-05-2013, 11:19 PM   #62
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Good info. As mentioned, I have a mag with polymer-tipped Winchester "Varmint X" ammo just for home defense. 40gr. I am hoping that they will fragment enough to minimize risk to others. Check this out: http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/index.html - his results showed the Fiocchi VMax ammo (almost identical in specs to the Varmint X) had fairly minimal penetration through drywall. His concern for home defense was a LACK of penetration since they won't pass through 12" of ballistics gel.

Several handgun rounds actually penetrated multiple layers of drywall better than expected, certainly better than the Vmax ammo. Same goes for buckshot - seemed to penetrate drywall better than any of the .223 ammo. So maybe it's the most responsible choice for home defense?

As for prosecution... you have to be alive to be prosecuted. Just saying I'd rather be alive and be in court explaining how I used a 100% legal weapon purchased from an FFL dealer to defend my life/liberty/property... than dead and letting someone rape my wife and murder my kids. And ah hell maybe they'll get me first, but at least I tried, eh?
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Unread 11-06-2013, 04:36 AM   #63
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Since it was brought up, hand loaded rounds are a prosecuters wet dream. They WILL spin the facts. You maliciously reloaded bullets to cause excessive pain, suffering, and maximum damage. Your malicious actions (somehow) prove you WANTED to mame/kill the attacker (instead of stopping them, yes the results are the same, but intentions make all the difference).
B/c you used hand loads, there's no way to prove how the used rounds were loaded. You could reload a Winchester round to the exact same specs as a Win factory load, but there is no way to prove it. Your hand load data is inadmissible.

The above info is based on actual court cases I have read about. At least one poor guy lost everything in civil court (but was cleared in criminal court) b/c he used reloads.

But if you use factory loads, ideally ones used by PD's, prosecution cannot play the malicious ammo card (as easily).

That weighed into my personal decision to use 124gr 9mm Speer Gold Dot ammo. It is used by NYPD and others, and fits into the parameters I posted yesterday. I haven't chosen a .45ACP round yet. The nice thing is even 185gr target (slow) rounds will make somebody think twice.
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Unread 11-06-2013, 06:19 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_dippert View Post
Since it was brought up, hand loaded rounds are a prosecuters wet dream. They WILL spin the facts. You maliciously reloaded bullets to cause excessive pain, suffering, and maximum damage. Your malicious actions (somehow) prove you WANTED to mame/kill the attacker (instead of stopping them, yes the results are the same, but intentions make all the difference).
B/c you used hand loads, there's no way to prove how the used rounds were loaded. You could reload a Winchester round to the exact same specs as a Win factory load, but there is no way to prove it. Your hand load data is inadmissible.

The above info is based on actual court cases I have read about. At least one poor guy lost everything in civil court (but was cleared in criminal court) b/c he used reloads.

But if you use factory loads, ideally ones used by PD's, prosecution cannot play the malicious ammo card (as easily).

That weighed into my personal decision to use 124gr 9mm Speer Gold Dot ammo. It is used by NYPD and others, and fits into the parameters I posted yesterday. I haven't chosen a .45ACP round yet. The nice thing is even 185gr target (slow) rounds will make somebody think twice.
When have you seen or heard of anybody who received a greater sentence or was convicted for using hand loaded (legal) rounds? I am not saying use or not use reloads, but I think it is a myth that using hand loaded rounds will get you in more trouble.

That would be saying it is wrong to use a .45 instead of a .22 because .45 make bigger deeper holes and kills worse.

It is a prosecutor’s job to spin everything, same as the defending lawyers. That is what lawyers do.
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Unread 11-06-2013, 06:32 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Coyotes97 View Post
Many people will tell you that a rifle like your AR is unacceptable for home defense as the bullet will penetrate your house, the neighbors house, etc. I am not one of those people, yet.

I am doing some experimentation (I am a handloader) with very light, fragile bullets loaded to the highest velocities I am comfortable with. I started with my .22-250 loaded with a 40 gr v-max bullet at over 4200 fps as a proof of concept. It has been enlightening. At that speed, with those fragile bullets, a piece of cardboard will cause the bullet to destabilize and shatter into relatively harmless fragments. Bear in mind that the bullet is spinning at ~250,000 RPM when it leaves the barrel.

Through my 14.5" AR-15, I am not getting 4200FPS and I never will. The .22-250 has a lot more powder, safely operates at higher pressures, and enjoys a foot more barrel. I am settling in on about 3100FPS from the AR. I have yet to test it against wallboard. While the AR has a disadvantage in speed, the bullet leaves the muzzle of the 1:7 twist barrel spinning at over 300,000 RPM!

Surprisingly, accuracy is decent with the 40 gr bullets from my 1:7 twist barrel. I will be posting some youtube vids if the experiment proves successful.

I will take a second to point out that, even if my theory holds water and use of this bullet type proves "safe", meaning nothing but fragments will come through a sheet of wallboard, it does not mean a prosecutor won't have a field day with your use of an "assault rifle" for home defense. Something to think about.
Making a bullet that fragments and becomes “safe” upon passing though sheet rock would be worth less against a human for self defense. A gun is deadly force you use it to stop a threat.

You can easily punch a hole is drywall, you can easily but a hole in dry wall with a hammer with not much force. Dry wall is weak the human body is much tougher. Shooting a bullet that will come apart and break into nothing but fragments (to become safe) will only cause a shallow wound and do little or nothing to quickly stop a threat.

If penetration is a concern use pepper spray, and run like hell. Rifle rounds are designed to go fast, far and penetrate, that is what they are supposed to do. Why try to make them so they don't do what they are supposed to do?

I guess there is nothing wrong with experimenting but if your goal is to quickly stop a threat that is not the way to do it. There is snake shoot that will probably achieve you goal but would you want to trust you and your family’s life with it?
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Unread 11-06-2013, 06:35 AM   #66
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To all you worried about penetration or over penetration. Penetration is required to kill quickly. Regardless of what ballistic report you read penetration comes almost always, more than any other factor when it comes to quickly stopping (killing) a threat. To use a bullet that fragments so quickly so it won't penetrate is counterproductive.


Rifles will could over penetrate and could have devastating secondary affects, hand guns won't even with rounds that are designed to penetrate deep.
Pepper spray will probably serve you better than a bullet making a shallow wound.


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Unread 11-06-2013, 07:24 AM   #67
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OP, my advice is to seek professional help locally if you can. Whether it's a dialed-in buddy or a knowledgeable instructor at a local range...you need to get hands on both options and be walked through the merits of each. My short answer to your question would be to buy:

-Glock 19 or 17 (I shoot the 19 better) or the Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm full size. Whichever you shoot better and feel more comfortable with. These are high capacity polymer pistols that many rely on for duty. They are mid to full size and will recoil back into the hand much more than a subcompact, which you'll get more muzzle flip with. Follow up shots on target will be easier.

-Surefire x300 or x300 ultra. The aforementioned models all have integrated light rails and the x300 series is a great option that will mount effortlessly and allow you to ID targets (essential). I've used the x300 for years but really like the new ultras, as they have more 'spill' and fill a room with light very easily.

-Good sights - I love Ameriglo's GL433s for Glocks. Tritium front sight insert with orange outline. Serrated rears with no dots. In a SD/HD situation and distance, you'll want to focus on that front sight and your target. Forget the rear sights. But practice using a full sight picture.

-Spare magazines

-Practice ammunition

-Defense ammunition (Federal HST 124gr, Federal HST 147gr, Winchester Ranger 124gr)

WHATEVER you choose, practice with it and maintain proficiency. Practice drawing, shooting, induced stress shooting (movement and with timer), target transitions, malfunction clearance (immediate and remedial action). SEEK INSTRUCTION, basic, intermediate and advanced (lowlight, shoothouse). You want manipulation and fundamentals to be second nature - when things go sideways you'll need to think and process threats. You will have no time or bandwidth to think about fundamentals.

All this training and knowledge can be put to further good use if you ever decide to get your CCW. When/if you do you'll be way ahead of the curve.

I'd bet both nuts (not just my left one) that those here advocating use of a shotgun for HD have never run one through a shoothouse or fired one indoors (without earpro). I'd choose a handgun because:
-they're shorter
-they're lighter
-they're semi automatic
-they have higher capacity
-they can be suppressed
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Unread 11-06-2013, 07:28 AM   #68
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Shotguns are for bird hunting. Even when i worked the streets the shotgun never came out of the rack unless i wanted beanbags. I carried an ar whenever i wanted along gun.

But any minute now someone willcome along saying the mere sound of a pump being worked is somehow magic.
If I ever meet you, beer is on me. Well said

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9mm isn't gonna stop a tweaker in your house.
Regardless of what's used, CNS hits are the only thing that will 'stop a tweaker in your house'. But that's not realistic - COM hits and rounds to the pelvis have a very high chance of stopping the threat and these are large areas to aim for. 147gr Federal HST is a great round and will do the trick when applied to the correct area liberally. Rinse and repeat.

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Originally Posted by Anticanman View Post
If you need 15+1, you bought the wrong gun. I like the spread with the mossy for home defense and as a target gun to shoot clays or any other target as well. For a home defense pistol, nothing less than .40 if not .45. I picked up a smith and wesson M&P .45 back in '08 and its been at my side ever since. I practice weekly with it despite the crimson trace grip and the streamlight "burglar illuminator". The only time I carry anything else is when I'm wheeling and I have a built in holster for my smith and wesson airweight .38 which is loaded with two rounds of #12 snake shot and three rounds of semi jacketed hollow points. My .45 has the hornady critical defense 230 grain hollow points at the ready. I may only have ten shots, but I only need one.
What is the spread? At what distance (keeping in mind that conventional HD distances are under 10ft)? How can you be certain that you will be engaging the threat at that distance every time?

How quickly can you reload your SG under stress, in the dark? I'd rather have the rounds in the gun than be fumbling with loose shells while an assailant is closing on me. Better to have and not need.

As I said above, caliber cannot make up for capacity. Modern technology has made the 9mm a great option with low recoil (faster followup shots on target) and high capacity. .40cal is worthless, unless you planning on engaging an assailant through a sheet metal or auto glass, which is of course the only reason S&W designed the cartridge. If you just want to shoot a very snappy round, then 40 is for you. There was a situation where a local BG was shot in the torso and face with a .45 and ran away. Then checked himself into the ER. And lived. The name of the game is shot placement and proficiency.

These bullets expanded to within eight hundredths of an inch of one another. One is obviously 9mm and one is 45. The gun on the left held 15-17 rounds of ammunition that expanded to over 3/4 of an inch. And it's an easier gun to shoot. The gun on the right held 8-10 rounds and only expanded .08" more. hmmmm


"I only need one round" is the kind of advice that can get people killed. You and Joe Biden probably shouldn't be giving training/tactics advice...
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Unread 11-06-2013, 08:15 AM   #69
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Since it was brought up, hand loaded rounds are a prosecuters wet dream.
Internet myth. It was an email myth before the internet. A mailing myth before then.
Paleantologists have actually found cave painting that decipher to "Ooog. Oooog. You no make own spear Ooog. If Ooog use homemade spear it go badly in court of rock. Buy my spear Ooog. It's professional spear. Judge say professional spear OK to stab people, but not homemade spear."

No-one I've ever seen post it has ever been post a single case where it has ever been a factor in any ruling ever made.
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Unread 11-06-2013, 08:52 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Munch520 View Post
If I ever meet you, beer is on me. Well said



Regardless of what's used, CNS hits are the only thing that will 'stop a tweaker in your house'. But that's not realistic - COM hits and rounds to the pelvis have a very high chance of stopping the threat and these are large areas to aim for. 147gr Federal HST is a great round and will do the trick when applied to the correct area liberally. Rinse and repeat.



What is the spread? At what distance (keeping in mind that conventional HD distances are under 10ft)? How can you be certain that you will be engaging the threat at that distance every time?

How quickly can you reload your SG under stress, in the dark? I'd rather have the rounds in the gun than be fumbling with loose shells while an assailant is closing on me. Better to have and not need.

As I said above, caliber cannot make up for capacity. Modern technology has made the 9mm a great option with low recoil (faster followup shots on target) and high capacity. .40cal is worthless, unless you planning on engaging an assailant through a car door or auto glass, which is of course the only reason S&W designed the cartridge. If you just want to shoot a very snappy round, then 40 is for you. There was a situation where a local BG was shot in the torso and face with a .45 and ran away. Then checked himself into the ER. And lived. The name of the game is shot placement and proficiency.

These bullets expanded to within eight hundredths of an inch of one another. One is obviously 9mm and one is 45. The gun on the left held 15-17 rounds of ammunition that expanded to over 3/4 of an inch. And it's an easier gun to shoot. The gun on the right held 8-10 rounds and only expanded .08" more. hmmmm


"I only need one round" is the kind of advice that can get people killed. You and Joe Biden probably shouldn't be giving training/tactics advice...
This is debatable, I can shoot my .45 quick and stay on target. It is a full size 1911 (has had work done to it) so that helps allot with this. It isn't jsut the bullet but also the gun. I am not saying a .45 is necessary, it is just what I have.

Penetration is always key. An expanding bullet will slow down when/if it expands. The penetration test so many rely on is in ballistic gelatin. Gelatin is supposed to mimic tissue. I have my reservations about this. I don’t care what anybody on planet earth says. I do have experience in testing, but not with ballistics. It is important when you test something the situation has to be as realistic as possible, against a real (as possible) threat in a situation as real as possible, gelatin just doesn’t not qualify for this in my opinion.

Your body is skin over muscle with fat cartilage and bone and organs. I have never sliced through a human but I have slice through animals. There is a difference between cutting into skin, muscle, bone cartilage, fat and organs. Gelatin is consentient through out. You can cut a straight line all the way through ballistic gelatin with knife. You cannot cut a straight line completely through an animal without running into bone.

That being said I fell penetrating into a human body is very different than penetrating into a block of ballistic gelatin. Now add to that that gelatin is not wearing any clothing and is not moving.

That that being said I rotate every other round .45 230 grain FMJ and JHP. Not sure which is better, so why choose between one or the other.

I practice 3 shot groups, drawing from my holster and at the read position.
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Unread 11-06-2013, 09:08 AM   #71
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This is debatable, I can shoot my .45 quick and stay on target. It is a full size 1911 (has had work done to it) so that helps allot with this. It isn't jsut the bullet but also the gun. I am not saying a .45 is necessary, it is just what I have.

Penetration is always key. An expanding bullet will slow down when/if it expands. The penetration test so many rely on is in ballistic gelatin. Gelatin is supposed to mimic tissue. I have my reservations about this. I don’t care what anybody on planet earth says. I do have experience in testing, but not with ballistics. It is important when you test something the situation has to be as realistic as possible, against a real (as possible) threat in a situation as real as possible, gelatin just doesn’t not qualify for this in my opinion.

Your body is skin over muscle with fat cartilage and bone and organs. I have never sliced through a human but I have slice through animals. There is a difference between cutting into skin, muscle, bone cartilage, fat and organs. Gelatin is consentient through out. You can cut a straight line all the way through ballistic gelatin with knife. You cannot cut a straight line completely through an animal without running into bone.

That being said I fell penetrating into a human body is very different than penetrating into a block of ballistic gelatin. Now add to that that gelatin is not wearing any clothing and is not moving.

That that being said I rotate every other round .45 230 grain FMJ and JHP. Not sure which is better, so why choose between one or the other.

I practice 3 shot groups, drawing from my holster and at the read position.
Yes you can, but you have likely practiced extensively and admittedly have a tuned gun (not factory). If I were getting another 45 today it'd be an STI 2011. But the 1911 family of pistols are never my advice for beginners. I digress..

I agree. Gelatin is the next best thing.

Based on my experience with 1911s, I'd find one JHP that runs and stick to it, I've never been a proponent of mixing ammo in mags. Especially with a picky pistol like the 1911. The good 9mm (or 45) loads I listed previously has little issue with penetration. That said, there's no magic bullet...

I used to run sequences of ___ number of shots. Now I try to use reactive targets whenever possible. Collapsing steel, hanging box targets, etc. Shoot em to the ground, hold on target for a few seconds, asses, scan, etc. Shooting ___ number of rounds and then scanning creates a major training scar and isn't real world in my opinion. Shooting until the threat stops is what I want ingrained in my brain. 1 round, 7 rounds, 10 rounds...whatever it takes.

This is a cheap option for using a reactive target...great idea:
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Unread 11-06-2013, 09:25 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Munch520 View Post
Yes you can, but you have likely practiced extensively and admittedly have a tuned gun (not factory). If I were getting another 45 today it'd be an STI 2011. But the 1911 family of pistols are never my advice for beginners. I digress..

I agree. Gelatin is the next best thing.

Based on my experience with 1911s, I'd find one JHP that runs and stick to it, I've never been a proponent of mixing ammo in mags. Especially with a picky pistol like the 1911. The good 9mm (or 45) loads I listed previously has little issue with penetration. That said, there's no magic bullet...

I used to run sequences of ___ number of shots. Now I try to use reactive targets whenever possible. Collapsing steel, hanging box targets, etc. Shoot em to the ground, hold on target for a few seconds, asses, scan, etc. Shooting ___ number of rounds and then scanning creates a major training scar and isn't real world in my opinion. Shooting until the threat stops is what I want ingrained in my brain. 1 round, 7 rounds, 10 rounds...whatever it takes.

This is a cheap option for using a reactive target...great idea: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWtlJ0AGttE
Some 1911 are picky. Mine is a Colt series 70 and will shoot anything.

When I was younger my father and I did allot of target shooting. We reloadee 185 grain wad cutter and shoot bullseye. I was a decent shoot but I could go through 100s of rounds at a time. This was with the same gun I have now.

I don't shoot bulleye anymore, I don't relaod any more. I nwo proactice defesive shooting. The two rounds I load shooting the same out to 20 feet shooting rapid fire. I am sure if i shoot at 25 yards there would be a difference.

I train to put three rounds quickly center mass. Tight grouping is not my goal as much as speed. Accuracy is important but this isn't bullesye shooting, for me anyway.

I still shoot often, just not as many rounds at one time. I am fortunate, I can shoot in my own backyard.
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Unread 11-06-2013, 10:45 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Ross View Post
Making a bullet that fragments and becomes “safe” upon passing though sheet rock would be worth less against a human for self defense. A gun is deadly force you use it to stop a threat.

You can easily punch a hole is drywall, you can easily but a hole in dry wall with a hammer with not much force. Dry wall is weak the human body is much tougher. Shooting a bullet that will come apart and break into nothing but fragments (to become safe) will only cause a shallow wound and do little or nothing to quickly stop a threat.
Surprisingly this is not the case. I started this experiment based on work done in ballistic gel. The tester assumed they would come apart upon hitting anything bit he never tested that. He did run a handful of gelatin tests and found penetration a bit shallow but the permanent cavity was very large due to bullet yaw and fragmentation.

In my testing I have come to believe that the bullet's stability and shape is upset upon striking an object as delicate as cardboard upon which it's high rpm spins it apart. If you put a sheet of paper right behind the cardboard you get a .22 hole. Even a foot or two beyond the cardboard you get a bullet hole. Beyond that you get keyholes and then fragments.

I am anxious to see what happens wit an 1100fps loss in velocity.

FYI, this is a thought experiment for me. I will not be using the AR for home defense. I just want to see what happens.
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Unread 11-06-2013, 11:00 AM   #74
Ross
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Surprisingly this is not the case. I started this experiment based on work done in ballistic gel. The tester assumed they would come apart upon hitting anything bit he never tested that. He did run a handful of gelatin tests and found penetration a bit shallow but the permanent cavity was very large due to bullet yaw and fragmentation.
In my testing I have come to believe that the bullet's stability and shape is upset upon striking an object as delicate as cardboard upon which it's high rpm spins it apart. If you put a sheet of paper right behind the cardboard you get a .22 hole. Even a foot or two beyond the cardboard you get a bullet hole. Beyond that you get keyholes and then fragments.

I am anxious to see what happens wit an 1100fps loss in velocity.

FYI, this is a thought experiment for me. I will not be using the AR for home defense. I just want to see what happens.

This won't kill or incapacitate quickly enough for a self defense situation.

If you read above you will see I don't take gelatin test seriously. Even using a gelatin test I am curious how far the round would have penetrated with a layer or two of clothing on?

Nothing wrong with experimentation, just as long if the testing is at least somewhat realistic.
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Unread 11-06-2013, 11:46 AM   #75
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When have you seen or heard of anybody who received a greater sentence or was convicted for using hand loaded (legal) rounds? I am not saying use or not use reloads, but I think it is a myth that using hand loaded rounds will get you in more trouble.

That would be saying it is wrong to use a .45 instead of a .22 because .45 make bigger deeper holes and kills worse.

It is a prosecutor’s job to spin everything, same as the defending lawyers. That is what lawyers do.
I didn't say anything about criminal court. Maybe I should have said prosecuting attorney, instead of prosecutor (city/county/state). I'm talking solely about civil court. I've read about cases where the defendant was cleared in criminal court, just to lose everything in civil court.
Criminal court is cut and dry. Was the shooting justifiable self defense? Civil court is where the gloves come off. The (shooting) victim's family finds the sleaziest lawyer in an effort to get every last penny from you (or your insurance).
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