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Unread 11-02-2013, 01:41 AM   #31
Shadownwpa
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Saiga 12 (converted and ported) with a 20rd drum for home, compact 9mm for carry

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Unread 11-02-2013, 11:02 AM   #32
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lol was the bear all ****ed up on something or just chilling doing bear things ?

i imagine the bear was doing nothing , wasnt in a state to take many shots and the shooter had a year to aim
Quite the opposite. He heard a noise outside his tent so he grabbed his .22 revolver. He peeked out the tent flap and found himself nose-to-nose with a bear. He fired one quick panic shot and scrambled to the back of the tent, waiting for the bear to burst in a tear him apart. The bear never came. After a while he peeked out and found the bear dead right where he had shot it.

Luckiest shot ever! Right through the bear's eye into the brain.

My point in that was that you can never say what a caliber can't do, especially with the right shot placement.
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Unread 11-02-2013, 11:51 AM   #33
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I carry a 40 cal glock for personal protection and also a 12 ga AND an AR15 ready in the closet for home protection.

As for the 9mm. I've heard the ammo is harder to find still. I'm purely going from what a friend has said. I don't own 9mm so I never look when I'm out.
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Unread 11-02-2013, 12:29 PM   #34
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if no one has said it yet, get both. 12ga is cheap and plentiful right now, 9mm not so much, its out there, but no where near "cheap and plentiful". how ever carrying a 12ga around the house during normal day-day stuff is cumbersome, that's where the 9mm comes in, 12ga or 9mm would both be fine for a bump in the night kind of gun, but home invasions don't always happen while your sleeping. Carry the 9mm around the house, keep the 12ga handy somewhere. Then get you CCW/CHL and carry the 9mm everywhere else.
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Unread 11-02-2013, 03:17 PM   #35
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Claymores. Lots and lots of claymores.
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Unread 11-02-2013, 03:19 PM   #36
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Claymores. Lots and lots of claymores.
Lol
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Unread 11-02-2013, 03:45 PM   #37
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Claymores. Lots and lots of claymores.
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Unread 11-02-2013, 03:52 PM   #38
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Handgun rounds have their power level and shotguns have theirs (more ), but it's silly to say flat out what a certain caliber will and won't do. The effect drugs have is to eliminate the psychological factor of a gunshot wound. Most fights end when someone realizes they are hurt, or about to be hurt, and decides they have better places to be than in a gunfight. "Tweakers" may never have that realization. But when the blood pressure falls low enough the fight ends anyway. This will not be instant even with the shotgun, but it will generally be shorter.

As to your comment that there is some sort of .40 minimum, I disagree completely. My Dad's best friend killed a bear outside his tent with a .22. With one shot! If the lowliest of cartridges can do that, surely a caliber that is 10 times more powerful can kill a delicate human, drugs or no.

I have often referred to the .45 ACP as "God's caliber". To say I am a fan is an understatement. But my second favorite is the often underestimated 9mm. If you really look at the energy various handguns rounds produce, and graph them on a realistic scale, they are a lot closer than the big caliber fans would have you believe. A few % separates all the major players. The 9mm is a proven fight stopper that is easier to learn with, cheaper to shoot, and chambered in every great handgun out there.

I am not a big advocate of the .40, especially for a beginner. I bought my first .40 for USPSA competition with the idea that it would make me faster. My times went up from my 45! The recoil is not far short of a .45 but it's snappy delivery makes me slower. I will take 8+1 rounds of 45 or 15+1 rounds of 9mm any day. The .40 S&W tries to be that perfect compromise between the two. The "best of both worlds". For me it just isn't. I truly don't believe it's much more effective than 9mm but the capacity and recoil penalties are real.

I am not disagreeing with your advice of a 12 GA. It is more effective. Plain and simple. A handgun is designed for portability, not power. Under stress the longer gun is easier to aim, with or without the sights. If all things are equal, pick the shotgun or rifle. But if portability and concealability are desirable, the handgun is really the only choice. In the end I must advise what we always advise when the "which should I buy" question comes up: BOTH!


Edit to add a favorite quote when it comes to caliber wars: "Shot placement is king. Penetration is queen. Everything else is angels dancing on the heads of pins."
There's a lot of good info here but when it comes to velocity vs caliber size, velocity will lose every time. Caliber size most certainly matters. Hollow points are designed for home defense usage. Why? The projectile will flatten and mushroom out in a larger size to create a larger exit wound more quickly. So yes, starting with a larger caliber that has a lower velocity (800 fps vs 9mm which is around 1000).

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Unread 11-02-2013, 07:32 PM   #39
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9mm isn't gonna stop a tweaker in your house.

You may want to reevaluate your priorities and get the shotgun. The mossberg 500 has limitless versatility with barrels and ammo types. And rounds are cheap too. Start there. Then move on. I used to have monthly shoots where we would all have an opportunity to fire each other's weapons. It gave a lot of experience to those who were curious about certain models.
A 9mm will stop a twerp in your house. While I agree the best home defense weapon is a,Mossberg 500, it is only practical in the right setting. The 9mm round as a whole is the best overall self defense round.

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Unread 11-02-2013, 07:40 PM   #40
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http://stevereichert.com/srs-handgun...hoice-and-why/

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Unread 11-02-2013, 08:28 PM   #41
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OP, the best gun for any purpose is the one (1) that you'll practice with, with is the same as saying that you are super, super comfortable shooting, and (2) that you will have with you when you need it. This is true for hunting, targets, and self defense.

People are different. I'm a big guy but I don't like firing the .45. For reasons that no one else can understand but I really feel, I hate to shoot the .45, so I don't, so it's fairly useless to me. The .40, I like, and I shoot. Some of my 12 gauges I love, others I haven't shot in years and the only reason I haven't sold them is laziness. Everyone but the nuttiest of the gun nuts has this experience: what you like is what you like, and you shouldn't try to talk yourself out of your own preference.

If you find that a 9mm really attracts you because it's easy to shoot, high capacity, and cheap on ammo (all of which are very much true), you should embrace it. The military uses 9's for precisely those reasons. If you are not going to fire the shotgun much at the range, and won't have it in an accessible place because it looks alarming and is hard to keep out of sight, then all that power is useless to you.

Conversations about one-shot stopping power are good to have but for most practical purposes those conversations are only for snipers and hunters. In a self defense situation -- and here I'm talking from hundreds of police investigations and police after-action reports, not just personal opinion -- your aim will probably suck, you will not have the time or wits about you to reload, and what will either incapacitate or scare off the bad guy is a fusillade of shots, not your first shot. Average number of shots fired to stop or scare away the bad buy is 3, average shots fired to lethality is above 6 (!), with any handgun (those are shots fired, not hits) (I don't know the equivalent shotgun numbers). So if self defense is really what you want, you need to get a weapon AND train on the weapon to fire many times quickly. With handguns, multiple "double tap" or three-shot bursts are the most popular training methods. With shotguns, it's typically a 3-round salvo. Be honest with yourself about whether you can handle this type of shooting with a given caliber. I can't reliably do this with a .45 but I can with a .40 or 9mm, and most ranges are happy to let you train this way. I can do it with a shotgun but the ranges near me won't let me do it (rapid fire shotgunning freaks some people out), so I have to do it outdoors, which means I don't do it, which means it's a useless thing that I can't rely on. You see my theme here.

This is a long way of saying that in a practical situation, a 9mm is a solid choice, and it's by far the best choice if you'll actually practice with it more than you would practice with the other choices. I don't actually own a 9mm, so you can rest assured that I'm not saying this because I'm a booster of it; if I were to recommend one, I'd actually recommend the .40 for the same reason most police departments have moved to it (more lethality than the 9mm, more capacity and easier to carry than the .45). It's just that I have to admit that the 9mm is easier and cheaper to shoot than the .40, has cheaper ammo, holds more, has a lot more people who really say they like to shoot it, and (at least last time I checked) has more bullet options.
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Unread 11-02-2013, 09:17 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by FarmerinVA View Post
OP, the best gun for any purpose is the one (1) that you'll practice with, with is the same as saying that you are super, super comfortable shooting, and (2) that you will have with you when you need it. This is true for hunting, targets, and self defense.

People are different. I'm a big guy but I don't like firing the .45. For reasons that no one else can understand but I really feel, I hate to shoot the .45, so I don't, so it's fairly useless to me. The .40, I like, and I shoot. Some of my 12 gauges I love, others I haven't shot in years and the only reason I haven't sold them is laziness. Everyone but the nuttiest of the gun nuts has this experience: what you like is what you like, and you shouldn't try to talk yourself out of your own preference.

If you find that a 9mm really attracts you because it's easy to shoot, high capacity, and cheap on ammo (all of which are very much true), you should embrace it. The military uses 9's for precisely those reasons. If you are not going to fire the shotgun much at the range, and won't have it in an accessible place because it looks alarming and is hard to keep out of sight, then all that power is useless to you.

Conversations about one-shot stopping power are good to have but for most practical purposes those conversations are only for snipers and hunters. In a self defense situation -- and here I'm talking from hundreds of police investigations and police after-action reports, not just personal opinion -- your aim will probably suck, you will not have the time or wits about you to reload, and what will either incapacitate or scare off the bad guy is a fusillade of shots, not your first shot. Average number of shots fired to stop or scare away the bad buy is 3, average shots fired to lethality is above 6 (!), with any handgun (those are shots fired, not hits) (I don't know the equivalent shotgun numbers). So if self defense is really what you want, you need to get a weapon AND train on the weapon to fire many times quickly. With handguns, multiple "double tap" or three-shot bursts are the most popular training methods. With shotguns, it's typically a 3-round salvo. Be honest with yourself about whether you can handle this type of shooting with a given caliber. I can't reliably do this with a .45 but I can with a .40 or 9mm, and most ranges are happy to let you train this way. I can do it with a shotgun but the ranges near me won't let me do it (rapid fire shotgunning freaks some people out), so I have to do it outdoors, which means I don't do it, which means it's a useless thing that I can't rely on. You see my theme here.

This is a long way of saying that in a practical situation, a 9mm is a solid choice, and it's by far the best choice if you'll actually practice with it more than you would practice with the other choices. I don't actually own a 9mm, so you can rest assured that I'm not saying this because I'm a booster of it; if I were to recommend one, I'd actually recommend the .40 for the same reason most police departments have moved to it (more lethality than the 9mm, more capacity and easier to carry than the .45). It's just that I have to admit that the 9mm is easier and cheaper to shoot than the .40, has cheaper ammo, holds more, has a lot more people who really say they like to shoot it, and (at least last time I checked) has more bullet options.
Thanks for the insight man! I've got a lot of thinking to do.
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Unread 11-02-2013, 09:32 PM   #43
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Unread 11-02-2013, 09:32 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Coyotes97 View Post
As to your comment that there is some sort of .40 minimum, I disagree completely. My Dad's best friend killed a bear outside his tent with a .22. With one shot! If the lowliest of cartridges can do that, surely a caliber that is 10 times more powerful can kill a delicate human, drugs or no.
In an interesting story, a shooting instructor (and retired LEO) I had one time was talking about a guy that got shot with a .22 in the chest which did kill him. The bullet was later found in his gut as it had bounced around inside and cut him up.


OP, they certainly both have their purposes and you'll want to get both in the long run, and then a third, fourth, etc.

And if it wasn't already mentioned, be sure to look for an NRA safety course in your area. Be safe. http://www.nrainstructors.org/searchcourse.aspx
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Unread 11-02-2013, 10:02 PM   #45
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There's a lot of good info here but when it comes to velocity vs caliber size, velocity will lose every time. Caliber size most certainly matters. Hollow points are designed for home defense usage. Why? The projectile will flatten and mushroom out in a larger size to create a larger exit wound more quickly. So yes, starting with a larger caliber that has a lower velocity (800 fps vs 9mm which is around 1000).

Only one thing matters and it is my favorite quote, strangely:
Velocity and caliber both have their advantages. I would put my 4200 FPS .22-250 load up against .45 any day. But we are talking handguns and shotguns here. None of the common handgun rounds can be called speed merchants in the grand scheme of things.
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