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Unread 08-12-2013, 08:27 PM   #31
DeltaForceB85
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The question isn't about more than 1 "tool." It's about finding the best all around CCW for a woman. Thats 1 gun. 1 tool. And the point I'm making is that if at all possible stay away from 380. It's junk.

As far as 9mm is concerned, if its a good enough standard issue secondary weapon for the SEALS it's good enough for a LEO. But that has little to do with picking a CCW for a woman.

There are lots of great platforms out there that will perform with the recommended penetration. The 380 isn't one of them. Is it better than a stick or pepper spray? Yes. Is it likely that a woman will be so limp wristed and have such poor form that she can only shoot a 380 accurately? .....No.

My cousin weighs 90 lbs, has mouse hands, stick arms and has had chronic wrist problems all her life. At 26 years old she was a first time shooter and we found a handgun that she absolutely loved. We went through about 10 different handguns in 4 different calibers. There was not a 380 anywhere within sight.

I went through a firearms training class with a woman her size and the instructor had her pumping rounds down range with a Model 22 Glock (that's a full size pistol chambered for the .40) and shooting great scores.

Does it happen occasionally that a woman can't handle anything bigger than a 380? Yeah I'm sure it does. But an underpowered caliber like the 380 should be the last choice. And I'd bet when it does occasionally happen, most of the time the issue is more poor form and poor coaching than anything else.

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Unread 08-12-2013, 09:51 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by jondoe297 View Post
When I teach NRA "Women on Target" classes, I stress this point repeatedly. The first thing the bad guy is grabbing is your purse. Now he's got your money and your gun.




Indeed. Most gun store slackjaws try to steer them all to those pink-gripped revolvers in .357.
In my experience, most gun store "salesmen" are complete and utter idiots, and will generally try to sell all men on the gun that they are carrying, to validate their own ego, and all women to the aforementioned pink-gripped revolver.
Id carry a pink gun, i have at least 1 friend so homophobic he wouldnt be in the same room with me while i had it. It would be hilarious

I used to take my wifes standard poodle pheasant hunting, he wouldnt go no matter how many birds came home. The poodle was worthless for hunting, all the instincts of my couch but it was fun. And he'll never know

My wife has thrown things at people who recommend the lady smith to new shooters. Also hilarious.
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Unread 08-13-2013, 06:25 AM   #33
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If you are going to conceal carry, how you carry, where you carry, the holster you choose are just as important as the gun.

With a bad holster set up you are sucking with even the best of gun (best for that individual and situation).

I have a good belt and good holster for my full size 1911. I have a crappy holster for my little Walther P22 (weighs just over a pound loaded and not much bigger than my wallet). Unless I am wearing pants or shorts with baggy pockets I can conceal my full size 1911 with the good holster and belt better than I can my little P22 with it cheap crappy holster.
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Unread 08-13-2013, 07:56 AM   #34
jondoe297
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Originally Posted by DeltaForceB85 View Post
And the point I'm making is that if at all possible stay away from 380. It's junk.
We get it, bro. You hate .380. Point made.
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Unread 08-13-2013, 08:02 AM   #35
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My wife has thrown things at people who recommend the lady smith to new shooters. Also hilarious.
It's frustrating. One of the instructors I teach with (well, technically teach FOR) has that mentality still. In fact, his wife carries a LADY SMITH in .357.
It's tricky trying to steer women away from the "Women should only shoot revolvers" mindset, without openly contradicting the other guy.
Outside of the school, I generally convey to women that when a gun store employee steers them towards the revolver that they are, in essence telling them they are too stupid to operate an auto.
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Unread 08-13-2013, 08:32 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by DeltaForceB85 View Post
As far as 9mm is concerned, if its a good enough standard issue secondary weapon for the SEALS it's good enough for a LEO. But that has little to do with picking a CCW for a woman.
The Geneva Convention also mandates FMJ, and the SEALs can probably score a head or heart shot riding a bull.

I fully agree with you about everything I've read (skimmed a few posts). A lot of people forget the stereotype of a 9mm being ineffective is based on FMJ rounds. That little tiny bullet won't slow down an attacker high on drugs or adrenaline, unless it hits something vital to mobility. Like a leg joint or the nervous system. I believe NYPD uses Speer Gold Dot HP's now and is quite pleased. A HP 9mm typically expands to the size of a 45.
A 45 has the advantage of having serious stopping power even in a FMJ.

Sadly, every ballistics article I've read all agree a 380 is a last resort caliber. A 38spl "FBI Load" is a consistent minimum standard for SD.

I made a short list of recommended rounds I read in a Massad Ayoob book. They're weights and velocities, not actual brands and part #s.
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Unread 08-13-2013, 09:12 AM   #37
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The gold dots have done well. When we tested for new duty rounds they were one of only a few that stayed together through a windshield. We have 1 guy walking around town with a 45 core lodged in his sinuses from a bullet that failed against glass. Premium bonded bullets make a world of difference.
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Unread 08-13-2013, 09:30 AM   #38
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The Geneva Convention also mandates FMJ,
The use of expanding ammunition is mandated by the Hague Convention of 1899, not the Geneva Convention. It is also worth noting that the United States never signed the Hague Convention of 1899. NATO, however, does not use ammunition that is prohibited by the Hague Convention.

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A 45 has the advantage of having serious stopping power even in a FMJ.
No handgun round has what could be considered "Serious stopping power". Handgun rounds are all more or less inadequate for "stopping" a person based solely on their ballistics. Handgun rounds stop threats by putting holes in places that are needed for the body to continue functioning, i.e., disrupting/destroying the central nervous system, and/or causing rapid loss of blood pressure. Of course, a round with deeper penetration has a better chance to reaching these areas.
What's far more important than caliber, is the ability to accurately and quickly place as many rounds on the target as are required to incapacitate the threat.
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Unread 08-13-2013, 09:35 AM   #39
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The gold dots have done well. When we tested for new duty rounds they were one of only a few that stayed together through a windshield. We have 1 guy walking around town with a 45 core lodged in his sinuses from a bullet that failed against glass. Premium bonded bullets make a world of difference.
That's a factor that so many people don't consider. How will your round perform if fired through an intermediate barrier? Many rounds don't stack up when it comes to firing through automotive glass. Gold Dots are solid performers in that area. It's an area that modern bullet design has made leaps and bounds in, over rounds offered up just 15 years ago.
Federal HST is another excellent "intermediate barrier" round.
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Unread 08-13-2013, 10:41 AM   #40
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The use of expanding ammunition is mandated by the Hague Convention of 1899, not the Geneva Convention. It is also worth noting that the United States never signed the Hague Convention of 1899. NATO, however, does not use ammunition that is prohibited by the Hague Convention.

No handgun round has what could be considered "Serious stopping power". Handgun rounds are all more or less inadequate for "stopping" a person based solely on their ballistics. Handgun rounds stop threats by putting holes in places that are needed for the body to continue functioning, i.e., disrupting/destroying the central nervous system, and/or causing rapid loss of blood pressure. Of course, a round with deeper penetration has a better chance to reaching these areas.
What's far more important than caliber, is the ability to accurately and quickly place as many rounds on the target as are required to incapacitate the threat.
#1, My mistake. Should have double checked. I knew NATO didn't use it, didn't know the US specifically didn't sign it.

#2, It's a relative concept, don't take the words literally. My point was that a 9 FMJ cannot do what a 45 FMJ does. However, a good 9 HP can. And the '9mm sucks' stereotype is based on FMJ.
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JF taught me that the 2.5L, Ax-5 and D35 together are so powerful that angels weep when I shift into 4LO.
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Unread 08-13-2013, 10:49 AM   #41
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#2, It's a relative concept, don't take the words literally. My point was that a 9 FMJ cannot do what a 45 FMJ does. However, a good 9 HP can. And the '9mm sucks' stereotype is based on FMJ.
I'm pickin' up what you're puttin' down now.

It's also worth noting that on average, the difference in size between an expanded .45ACP and 9mm is only around one tenth of an inch.
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Unread 08-13-2013, 01:23 PM   #42
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Little late, but I've been looking at getting mine the Sig P250 in sub compact.

The slide is easy to operate, it's got a decent capacity and I've had nothing buy great experiences with my other Sig handguns.

Oh, and you can get it in a few calibers including 9mm and .380
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Unread 08-13-2013, 01:59 PM   #43
jondoe297
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Little late, but I've been looking at getting mine the Sig P250 in sub compact.

The slide is easy to operate, it's got a decent capacity and I've had nothing buy great experiences with my other Sig handguns.

Oh, and you can get it in a few calibers including 9mm and .380
I would do your homework on that platform before committing to it. There were some relatively high-profile instances of the P250 flunking agency testing. Two that I can readily recall are with the ATF and with a Dutch Law Enforcement Agency. The Dutch agency had initially adopted the weapon, and then rejected it before it was rolled out into the field.
I'm not telling you NOT to get one, just do your homework and make an informed decision.
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Unread 08-13-2013, 03:31 PM   #44
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Mine carry’s (depending on day) a glock 27 and a lcp. Both are loaded with speer gold dots and a extra mag.
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Unread 08-13-2013, 05:09 PM   #45
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Be sure to test fire the P250 before committing, the trigger pull may not lead to accurate shots.
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