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Unread 08-11-2013, 06:59 AM   #16
Jim1611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaForceB85 View Post
Yeah I knew all the 380 and 22lr fans would come out the woodworks on this thread. Can't argue with the "experts" on jeep forum.

But here's the facts from the "real" experts AKA the FBI and Winchester. You're not gonna get much more premium than a Winchester ranger round. And you'll never do more research into terminal ballistics than the FBI.

http://gundata.org/blog/post/fbi-handgun-ballistics/

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-...RangerAmmo.gif

380 is JUNK.
Nobody claimed to be an expert. A good point to be made about defense shooting is to hit what you aim at. I shoot because I love doing so and have for years. I know many lawmen that shoot only as much as they're required. They are misreable shots, I'm sure you've seen these folks too. The point with any of the calibers that might be picked is that the person doing the shooting has to be able to handle it and for some women the smaller ones are the way to go. Yes compared to the 45 a 380 is poor but a 380 is better than her fist and might just give her a chance to avoid a beating, rape or being killed.

Also it would be interesting to know the facts on just how many situations there are where a firearm was used to protect oneself and whether the assailant was killed or wonded or whether the shot even saved a life. The NRA prints true stories every month about ordinary people drawing a weapon to defend home or life. These same stories include calibers from .22 to a 12 gauge. Sometimes the creep getting shot has ran away to die or fell in their tracks. Had that person not had the firearm, whatever it was, the story might have been not so good for them.

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Unread 08-11-2013, 07:18 AM   #17
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Why buy garbage when you can get something that does the job efficiently? If all you have is crap then carry crap. But don't choose to buy something that's crap. If you're trying to choose a weapon you shouldn't choose garbage.

If what you're after is a tiny pocket pistol you can carry in board shorts, ruger makes an LC9 that fits in the palm of your hand and weighs in at 12 ounces. I can shove that in the pocket of every pair of pants I own, and I can put the same group with it that I do with my service pistol.

Pick a gun that fits her hand and that is heavy enough for her to handle the recoil of a good self defense caliber. Don't pick a 380. They're junk.

If all I had to carry was a 22 or a 380 would I carry it? You bet I would. But I sure as hell wouldn't CHOOSE one if I was gun shopping specifically for self defense. That's just dumb.
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Unread 08-11-2013, 07:32 AM   #18
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Above all find one that fits her hand well and she is comfortable shooting.
Smaller is better than nothing. My wife carries a compact sig 380 loaded with critical defense. It fits her hand well, she likes shooting it and is pretty good with it. On the other hand she almost hates my 45 cal. 1911 and won't shoot it because of the recoil.

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Unread 08-11-2013, 08:11 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by DeltaForceB85 View Post
Why buy garbage when you can get something that does the job efficiently? If all you have is crap then carry crap. But don't choose to buy something that's crap. If you're trying to choose a weapon you shouldn't choose garbage.

If what you're after is a tiny pocket pistol you can carry in board shorts, ruger makes an LC9 that fits in the palm of your hand and weighs in at 12 ounces. I can shove that in the pocket of every pair of pants I own, and I can put the same group with it that I do with my service pistol.

Pick a gun that fits her hand and that is heavy enough for her to handle the recoil of a good self defense caliber. Don't pick a 380. They're junk.

If all I had to carry was a 22 or a 380 would I carry it? You bet I would. But I sure as hell wouldn't CHOOSE one if I was gun shopping specifically for self defense. That's just dumb.
Take a breathe dude. There is always a better round. Pretty much period. I mean why dont we all stop with the pistol calibers anyway and only carry a bfg in 47-70? Actually lets all carry grenades, way more portable and will always do a better job

So far no one has been a 22 380 lover. The best gun is always the one that works best in your siuation. The lc9 isnt that tool for all situations. The 9mm isnt that round. personally wouldnt carry a 9 on duty. No 1 pistol is capable of being the best tool for all situations. Thats why we have toolboxes. Fwiw i have the pistol ruger copied the lc9 from, i carry it from time to time.

With your 2 links... The fbi report is the one done in the 80s, not exactly new stuff there. And the rounds tested then were specifically stated to be for le not sd use. The le standard is higher. The 12" minimum was for a variety of issues, angle, joints etc. almost all true sd situations occur at arms length, torso exposed and vitals within 6" of penetration. If youre shooting at someone 50 yards away is behind hard cover, youre probaly not defending yourself. However the report still says 18" would be preferable for LE use.

Winchester ranger is ifirc a reduced recoil round using basic hp or a better bonded bullet. There is better out there. Looking at the chart you linked, almost every t-series bullet in every caliber fails or barely squeeks by the 12" minimum. But every bonded does better. Hence the need for premium bullets as stated above. Bullet selection is important and there are all parts of the spectrum out there. I have some berry's plated in some big calibers that would probaly stop inside a cat. Theyre not used for sd.

On duty i wouldnt carry less than a 40, the needs of someone needing to stop a mugger at 3 feet and facing them are likely to be different.
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Unread 08-11-2013, 09:03 AM   #20
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Get her a Ruger LCR-LG. 5 shot hammerless revolver with laser spot is foolproof, compact and light.

http://www.ruger.com/products/lcr/models.html
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Unread 08-11-2013, 10:24 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy

Take a breathe dude. There is always a better round. Pretty much period. I mean why dont we all stop with the pistol calibers anyway and only carry a bfg in 47-70? Actually lets all carry grenades, way more portable and will always do a better job

So far no one has been a 22 380 lover. The best gun is always the one that works best in your siuation. The lc9 isnt that tool for all situations. The 9mm isnt that round. personally wouldnt carry a 9 on duty. No 1 pistol is capable of being the best tool for all situations. Thats why we have toolboxes. Fwiw i have the pistol ruger copied the lc9 from, i carry it from time to time.

With your 2 links... The fbi report is the one done in the 80s, not exactly new stuff there. And the rounds tested then were specifically stated to be for le not sd use. The le standard is higher. The 12" minimum was for a variety of issues, angle, joints etc. almost all true sd situations occur at arms length, torso exposed and vitals within 6" of penetration. If youre shooting at someone 50 yards away is behind hard cover, youre probaly not defending yourself. However the report still says 18" would be preferable for LE use.

Winchester ranger is ifirc a reduced recoil round using basic hp or a better bonded bullet. There is better out there. Looking at the chart you linked, almost every t-series bullet in every caliber fails or barely squeeks by the 12" minimum. But every bonded does better. Hence the need for premium bullets as stated above. Bullet selection is important and there are all parts of the spectrum out there. I have some berry's plated in some big calibers that would probaly stop inside a cat. Theyre not used for sd.

On duty i wouldnt carry less than a 40, the needs of someone needing to stop a mugger at 3 feet and facing them are likely to be different.
The FBI standards are what we use. They haven't changed much at all. 12" is the minimum recommended. Period. Yeah that chart was Winchester Ranger T-Series. It is a premium self defense round. But even with a higher grain bullet no 380 round is going to penetrate 12".

I know a lot of guys who carry 9mm with the next gen LE hollow points on duty. I'd carry 9mm myself with no problem as long as I had the new stuff.

380 has a use. It's a good gut gun. It's good for shooting possums and dogs in the yard. That's about all I'd trust it for.
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Unread 08-11-2013, 01:00 PM   #22
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My point being you're using an LE standard, not a SD standard. If you want a .380 to go 12" use a fmj. FMJ is a poor choice for SD though, so premium HP's. In any SD round, any caliber, premium HP. Period IMO. Even though the .45 ball has a substantial following for SD and for most of the successful SD shootings through history premium HP's didn't exist.

The 9mm for LE even with premiums is completely inadequate IMO, and lots of cops opinions. BUT lots of other cops say it's good enough. Last I checked in LE uses it has among the poorest reputation compared to the other common LE calibers, .40 10mm and 45 rounding out the top 4. So imo, for duty use, it's junk, garbage and useless

But for SD I consider it acceptable. Different standards. On duty I may need to punch through a bad guys shoulder, heavy clothes and reach the vitals. Odds are I'm dealing with someone who has a strong motivation to not go down and to try and kill me instead. It's a fairly high need.


For SD I need it to travel 4" into soft tissue. Because 99.9999999%(making up numbers here) of SD shootings will leave muzzle burns and site imprints on the target, they're that close and the heart is about 1.5 inches deep. That 1.5" is probably (playing statistics here) needed on a bad guy who is looking for an easy score and if popped with blanks will likely run like hell because he's looking for a victim and not a fight. Of course you may be face to face with a motivated bad guy but odds are slim. And even if you're dealing with a motivated bad guy odds are he's close, odds are he's facing you, and odds are he'll go down with a well placed shot.

For that 1.5 inches needed the 380 will do the job, the 9mm will do it a bit better (same expanded bullet size with a little more oomph and a little more mass) the .40 will do it even better, the 10 mm will do it even better (same thing here as the 380/9mm comparison) and the .45 *may* so it even better. If all we look at it which one does the most and trash anything that isn't what we consider best we're doing an un-needed disservice to all the tools that will do the job. If a .380 kills the bad guy, the 45 isn't going to kill them any deader. If .380 is the biggest bang a shooter can handle, it's the perfect tool for them.

So what else has been used at SD ranges? .22lr and mag. Which are bunny rounds imo. .25acp has just enough energy to travel 10 feet before it tumbles and yet it was used. In basic I'm sure you got to watch the video of the cop taking a .25 in the ribs and dieing for 4 minutes. I hate that video. But the lowly .25 was used. Most rimfires have been used but they're completely inadequate for all uses imo. They're potentially deadly firecrackers. Moving up to what is the minimum imo is the .380. It's usefulness beyond target shooting is SD. It goes no further, can't be used as a duty round, hunting round anything. It's the minimum. Anything bigger is better but you shouldn't look any lower for its intended purpose and it will do the job needed. If your purpose is higher, it's an automatic no.

There is no 'best' in firearms, there is only acceptable and unacceptable.
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Unread 08-11-2013, 01:06 PM   #23
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I am patiently waiting for SOMEONE, ANYONE to offer to shoot me with their .50 loudenboomer and I get to shoot them with my (take your pick I have them all) and we'll see who's happier. Almost every caliber conversation (which I consider this to be) devolves into a ford vs chevy argument by at least once side at which point an angry person offers to start shooting people. So in before that stating I have no desire to be shot by a BB gun much less anything that burns powder.
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Unread 08-11-2013, 01:08 PM   #24
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When I got my wife the Smith and Wesson M&P 9c great fit for women. Try to find a good local range, mine let you "rent" any handgun for $10 an hr and you could switch weapons as often as you wanted you just had to buy there ammo. It really helped figure out what she liked best. It also helped that i'm a firearms instructor.
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Unread 08-12-2013, 12:09 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy
My point being you're using an LE standard, not a SD standard. If you want a .380 to go 12" use a fmj. FMJ is a poor choice for SD though, so premium HP's. In any SD round, any caliber, premium HP. Period IMO. Even though the .45 ball has a substantial following for SD and for most of the successful SD shootings through history premium HP's didn't exist.

The 9mm for LE even with premiums is completely inadequate IMO, and lots of cops opinions. BUT lots of other cops say it's good enough. Last I checked in LE uses it has among the poorest reputation compared to the other common LE calibers, .40 10mm and 45 rounding out the top 4. So imo, for duty use, it's junk, garbage and useless
Our SWAT instructors, long range sniper, and about 50% of our range staff would disagree with you. The other 50% either wants to go back to revolvers or is in love with the .40 (which is what I carry.)

Quote:
But for SD I consider it acceptable. Different standards. On duty I may need to punch through a bad guys shoulder, heavy clothes and reach the vitals. Odds are I'm dealing with someone who has a strong motivation to not go down and to try and kill me instead. It's a fairly high need.
Be sure if you're off duty to tell them to take off their clothes and give you a clean shot.

If I'm shooting at someone, it's a fairly high need for them to be dead whether I'm in uniform or not. If my wife is shooting at someone, the need is the same.

Quote:

For SD I need it to travel 4" into soft tissue. Because 99.9999999%(making up numbers here) of SD shootings will leave muzzle burns and site imprints on the target, they're that close and the heart is about 1.5 inches deep. That 1.5" is probably (playing statistics here) needed on a bad guy who is looking for an easy score and if popped with blanks will likely run like hell because he's looking for a victim and not a fight. Of course you may be face to face with a motivated bad guy but odds are slim.
The odds are slim period. Why trust that your loved one is going to meet one of the "nice" killers who wear thin clothes and hold still for a clean shot? Why give them a tool that may be inadequate if they have to shoot through glass, thick clothing, an arm muscle or a shoulder? Especially when there are plenty of options that aren't much bigger and don't pack much more recoil?



Quote:
If a .380 kills the bad guy, the 45 isn't going to kill them any deader. If .380 is the biggest bang a shooter can handle, it's the perfect tool for them.
And if the 380 fails to stop the bad guy because of all the reasons you listed, your loved one is dead. Not worth the risk when there's plenty of good options with reliable platforms and good recoil management available.
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Unread 08-12-2013, 12:27 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by AppStateTJ View Post
Wife just got her carry permit and I was wondering what the other girls are packing. 38 spl 380 9mm?

Thanks
Ignoring all the caliber debating and cock-comparing in this thread, I'd recommend that she handle as many weapons as she can, and find a range that rents something she likes. Let her fire different guns and then let her make her own decision, based on what she feels the most comfortable with. At the end of the day, she's the one that has to carry it.
I wouldn't opt for .380 as my first choice, especially when they are now making 9mm pistols that are equally as compact, however if she finds a .380 that she simply must have, it is better than pepper spray.
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Unread 08-12-2013, 02:17 PM   #27
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Our SWAT instructors, long range sniper, and about 50% of our range staff would disagree with you. The other 50% either wants to go back to revolvers or is in love with the .40 (which is what I carry.)

Ah Lord. And close to 100% of our swat team and long range shooters and instructors would agree with disagreeing with you. And yet neither my team or your team would be wrong. (again my point) Last I checked the local dept still allowed you to carry what you wanted on duty, 9mm and larger, as long as you provided your own dept approved ammo. There were still 1 or 2 wheel guns around, a handful of 1911's when I left. Pretty much everyone else carried the issued G27L and the dept only supplied 40 for training and duty. For back-up/vest you could carry quite a few more as long as you could qual with it.

FWIW I carried an 'expert' rating in pistol for most of my career and was one of a handful that was allowed to carry an EBG on duty. The sum means I wasn't an expert in jack ****, I was just very good and very fast. But I got the pin...

Personally I started with a 40, ended with a 40. Except in my little guns where .40's had a habit of failing. Spectacularly in 1 case.




Be sure if you're off duty to tell them to take off their clothes and give you a clean shot.

If I'm shooting at someone, it's a fairly high need for them to be dead whether I'm in uniform or not. If my wife is shooting at someone, the need is the same.

Good lord again. Keep the shoot to kill statements out of public ear unless they bite you in the *** in court.



The odds are slim period. Why trust that your loved one is going to meet one of the "nice" killers who wear thin clothes and hold still for a clean shot? Why give them a tool that may be inadequate if they have to shoot through glass, thick clothing, an arm muscle or a shoulder? Especially when there are plenty of options that aren't much bigger and don't pack much more recoil?

And yet again, my point being that not every person can manage more recoil than the smaller calibers. And if they can they can only do so in larger framed pistols that may not be concealable on their person.





And if the 380 fails to stop the bad guy because of all the reasons you listed, your loved one is dead. Not worth the risk when there's plenty of good options with reliable platforms and good recoil management available.

And yet again my point. There is more than 1 tool and that's all a pistol is. A hammer makes a bad wrench no matter how badly you need a wrench and the biggest wrench makes a very mediocre hammer at best. At no point in any statement have I said the .380 is an ideal SD round. Only that it is the MINIMUM you should carry for a LIMITED role. And that beyond that limited role it should not be considered as appropriate.

As I said I have 1 (counting it is easy) .380 that goes where my smallest 9mm can't. I bought both super compacts 380 and subcompact 9 about a year ago. It goes where my other 9mm's can't which go where my .40's can't which go where my .45's and bigger... can't. When I'm in the fields I carry(well used to) a 1911 chambered in 460 rowland. When I'm more constrained about what I wear I carry something else.

More than 1 tool for more than 1 purpose. I can't wear board shorts and baggies to the office and haven't been able to since I quit carrying professionally.

Anyways just reiterating some thoughts but I'm just saying the same things over and over, so I'm done. In all seriousness GL and be safe on the street. Being a cop was a good job to have used to have done, glad every day I don't do it anymore. It wears on you, and life for me is better since I gave it up.
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Unread 08-12-2013, 02:31 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by jondoe297 View Post
Ignoring all the caliber debating and cock-comparing in this thread, I'd recommend that she handle as many weapons as she can, and find a range that rents something she likes. Let her fire different guns and then let her make her own decision, based on what she feels the most comfortable with. At the end of the day, she's the one that has to carry it.
I wouldn't opt for .380 as my first choice, especially when they are now making 9mm pistols that are equally as compact, however if she finds a .380 that she simply must have, it is better than pepper spray.
I believe we were still in the pissing contest stage and had yet to break out the rulers

Lots of good guns out there and not all will fit your hand. I usually take 7-8 different pistols when I'm with someone learning to shoot so they can try as many different types and calibers as they can. There's no ranges locally that rent pistols and just fondling them at the lgs counter isn't the best way to find what works.

Many gun shops recommend the smallest pistol in the biggest caliber to women. And my wife would gladly beat them on the head with a hammer for that. No weight + big caliber = (usually) too much recoil or report for a beginning shooter. The one universal report I've had is that everyone hates shooting my sub-compacts. Hell, I only tolerate them. But the midsize'd tend to do well with most folks, and almost everyone loves shooting a heavy .45.
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Unread 08-12-2013, 02:35 PM   #29
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I would not carry in a purse, brief case or anything the bad guy could grab. Depending on how one dresses the holster bra is a good option.
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Unread 08-12-2013, 02:46 PM   #30
jondoe297
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I would not carry in a purse, brief case or anything the bad guy could grab.
When I teach NRA "Women on Target" classes, I stress this point repeatedly. The first thing the bad guy is grabbing is your purse. Now he's got your money and your gun.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy
Many gun shops recommend the smallest pistol in the biggest caliber to women.
Indeed. Most gun store slackjaws try to steer them all to those pink-gripped revolvers in .357.
In my experience, most gun store "salesmen" are complete and utter idiots, and will generally try to sell all men on the gun that they are carrying, to validate their own ego, and all women to the aforementioned pink-gripped revolver.
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