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Unread 12-31-2012, 04:48 PM   #46
wilson1010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross View Post
All the excuses or obstacles in your way as far as training will not change the fact of being untrained will but you at a huge disadvantage.

I will draw and hit center mass 3 times before draw, if you are untrained. We are only talking about 20 feet here. You don't need to be a marks man to do this. It is speed and muscle memory, developed from repetitive training. How good you shoot means nothing if you can’t get your weapon out and on target fast.
Ohio State Troopers are among the best trained LE in the nation. And, every time this quick draw vs. marksman subject comes up, I cannot get the Kehoe brothers shootout from my mind. It happened right down the road from where I live:


Neither cop hit anything.

.

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Unread 12-31-2012, 06:08 PM   #47
JBTJ
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In my opinion, the best first handgun AFTER a .22 is a 357 mag DA revolver. You can shoot 38's in it and even drop down in bullet weight so you have less recoil. And also have the advantage of a heavier bullet when you need it. Get into reloading and it makes it very cheap to do. A revolver is more accurate and easier to load and shoot. There is nothing worse than going out and paying money for a gun and can only get 4~5" groups at 25 yards which is what a auto will give you compared to 2~3" groups from a revolver. Makes it no fun to go target shoot cause you can't hit anything. Now autos would be my choice for home defense, 1911 .45 and carry where you may need to get a few more rounds off quickly. Auto's can jam on you and that's not a good thing when the time comes, although revolver could jam, but none of mine ever have in the past 37 years I've been shooting them. 9mm ammo is cheaper and a good place to start for auto's and is slightly less powerful than the 38. So, you go with a 357mag, and then you have basically 2 guns in one. One caliber good for plinking and the other good for home defense.
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Unread 12-31-2012, 06:26 PM   #48
wilson1010
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Originally Posted by JBTJ View Post
In my opinion, the best first handgun AFTER a .22 is a 357 mag DA revolver. You can shoot 38's in it and even drop down in bullet weight so you have less recoil. And also have the advantage of a heavier bullet when you need it. Get into reloading and it makes it very cheap to do. A revolver is more accurate and easier to load and shoot. There is nothing worse than going out and paying money for a gun and can only get 4~5" groups at 25 yards which is what a auto will give you compared to 2~3" groups from a revolver. Makes it no fun to go target shoot cause you can't hit anything. Now autos would be my choice for home defense, 1911 .45 and carry where you may need to get a few more rounds off quickly. Auto's can jam on you and that's not a good thing when the time comes, although revolver could jam, but none of mine ever have in the past 37 years I've been shooting them. 9mm ammo is cheaper and a good place to start for auto's and is slightly less powerful than the 38. So, you go with a 357mag, and then you have basically 2 guns in one. One caliber good for plinking and the other good for home defense.
I totally agree with everything above. I have a S&W .357 DA revolver in the bedside table. One does not have to use two hands to rack it, it will never jam, and is more accurate than the automatics. And, a .357 round, although very dangerous in the house has the advantage of you not having to open the door to clear the bad guys from the other side.
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Unread 01-18-2013, 10:17 PM   #49
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Just picked up a Glock 27 for the wife to CCW to take to work with her. I'm glad I live in the south east everything is legal here short of full auto.

Since this pic I've already picked up some +2 magazine extensions because the grip was just too short.

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Unread 01-20-2013, 07:43 PM   #50
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Shooting through walls can be a problem. That's what Glaser Safety Slugs are for. Will do damage to a bad guy but not penatrate 2 sheets of drywall. I agree about a guage for home defense. Good ammo available for that too. First handgun,I think, should be simple to use(revolver). That's what my wife got.
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Unread 01-21-2013, 03:59 PM   #51
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Picked up my first today... I got the Smith and Wesson M&P 22 (CA)... I also have ordered an M&P 9mm (which are out of stock everyone in the area and online, just waiting for S&W to ramp up production), which is basically the same size, shape, etc, so I figured the .22lr would be a good "trainer" with much cheaper rounds for practice!

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Unread 01-21-2013, 08:34 PM   #52
JeepinDean
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperWade2

I have zero notion of CCW in CA... I've read that the Sheriff's office in my County is EXTRA strict and there are few if any granted (rumor is ONLY 1 non-LEO with a CCW in Santa Cruz County, Population 275K, and he used to be chief of the PD or something like that).

Again, no hands on yet, but I prefer the 4-4.5" barrel from what I've been looking at. I'm not a huge fan of most of the Glocks, but like the Springfield XD/XDm!. S&W M&P9, and a few others.

I did a lot of reading last night and it turns out there are only a certain # of guns that are "blessed" to be purchased in California (200 different models of 9mm), unless you are LEO, get gifted from a direct family member out of state, or so some other Single Shot Exemption (SSE) loophole thing (which is maybe what I might do if I decide to get the XDm)
http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/
Forget choosing a pistol, you need to choose a new state! If you just want to shoot a lot and have fun, I have a 1911-22 by Umarex/Walter. It's loads of fun. The clip holds 12 rounds and the Federal AutoMatch 22LR cycles well and its cheap ammo. For larger caliber i have big hands so I bought a S&W M&P .40 and then i installed a better trigger, but if you don't have long fingers then a Glock is the way to go, stock trigger is lighter and smoother.
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Unread 01-22-2013, 08:53 AM   #53
Ross
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I recently watched a video with ER surgeon talking about gun wonds. It really has opened my eyes about this.

Bottom line is it seems cavitations and penetration are what is likely to kill quickly. The higher the bullet speed the more internal damage, the deeper the penetration the more likely to hit a vital organ. A big hole (from hollow points) will make somebody bleed out, but if it doesn't penetrate deep enough that is a slower death. Hitting a vital organ stops them quicker then bleeding to death. A bad guy is no longer a threat when he is dead. Guns are for killing, if you want to incapacitate use pepper spray. Killing quickly stops the threat quickly. Stopping the threat quickly should be your goal if presented with a threat that you feel you need to use deadly force against.

As far as hand guns go, from his experience hand guns are not nearly as effective as we think they might be. Rifles, when compared to hand guns, are more effective than most think they are.

After watching this video I now load every other round with jacked hollow point (more tissue damage and some penetration) and FMJ (deeper penetration).
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Unread 01-22-2013, 09:00 PM   #54
andy02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross
I recently watched a video with ER surgeon talking about gun wonds. It really has opened my eyes about this.

Bottom line is it seems cavitations and penetration are what is likely to kill quickly. The higher the bullet speed the more internal damage, the deeper the penetration the more likely to hit a vital organ. A big hole (from hollow points) will make somebody bleed out, but if it doesn't penetrate deep enough that is a slower death. Hitting a vital organ stops them quicker then bleeding to death. A bad guy is no longer a threat when he is dead. Guns are for killing, if you want to incapacitate use pepper spray. Killing quickly stops the threat quickly. Stopping the threat quickly should be your goal if presented with a threat that you feel you need to use deadly force against.

As far as hand guns go, from his experience hand guns are not nearly as effective as we think they might be. Rifles, when compared to hand guns, are more effective than most think they are.

After watching this video I now load every other round with jacked hollow point (more tissue damage and some penetration) and FMJ (deeper penetration).
I thought the problem with FMJ against a semi-soft target was over penetration? .223/5.56 withstanding because as it hits the target or at longer ranges, it begins to tumble, isn't the larger wound tract, a better thing? For instance, if a FMJ round came within say 1/4 inch of a major organ, isn't it non-expanding nature then a hindrance? The same hit with a hollow point would creat a larger wound tract and therefore a hit to said major organ? Your typical firefight on the street occurs at ranges closer than 20ft. At that range, isn't the lack of penetration then a moot point? Is there something I am missing?
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My issue was I couldn't get the balls centered. I had to use some extra force to get everything lined up right. It didn't take me long.


September 11 2001
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Unread 01-23-2013, 04:41 AM   #55
Ross
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Originally Posted by andy02 View Post
I thought the problem with FMJ against a semi-soft target was over penetration? .223/5.56 withstanding because as it hits the target or at longer ranges, it begins to tumble, isn't the larger wound tract, a better thing? For instance, if a FMJ round came within say 1/4 inch of a major organ, isn't it non-expanding nature then a hindrance? The same hit with a hollow point would creat a larger wound tract and therefore a hit to said major organ? Your typical firefight on the street occurs at ranges closer than 20ft. At that range, isn't the lack of penetration then a moot point? Is there something I am missing?
Over penetration (with a handgun) is not really a problem like many believe. This is a good video to watch.


The damage a rifle causes is because of the speed or velocity in which it enters the body. The tumble may also cause damage. The speed of a rifle bullet, even one as small as a 5.56, causes more damage than a slower even larger hollow point fired form a pistol.

Speed kills!!
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Unread 01-23-2013, 10:32 AM   #56
andy02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross View Post
Over penetration (with a handgun) is not really a problem like many believe. This is a good video to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tku8Y...layer_embedded

The damage a rifle causes is because of the speed or velocity in which it enters the body. The tumble may also cause damage. The speed of a rifle bullet, even one as small as a 5.56, causes more damage than a slower even larger hollow point fired form a pistol.

Speed kills!!
Interesting. Thanks for that.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendrix
No one really knows the reason for LCOG Jeeps.

Its so short ****s like me and you can still get in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ACR View Post
My issue was I couldn't get the balls centered. I had to use some extra force to get everything lined up right. It didn't take me long.


September 11 2001
Never Forget!
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Unread 01-23-2013, 10:43 AM   #57
Ross
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Interesting. Thanks for that.
It really gives you something to think about. I carry a .45. I now load every other round one jacketed hollow point and one full metal jacket, 230 grain.
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Unread 02-19-2013, 07:04 PM   #58
JBTJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross View Post
Over penetration (with a handgun) is not really a problem like many believe. This is a good video to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tku8Y...layer_embedded

The damage a rifle causes is because of the speed or velocity in which it enters the body. The tumble may also cause damage. The speed of a rifle bullet, even one as small as a 5.56, causes more damage than a slower even larger hollow point fired form a pistol.

Speed kills!!
Unless you have something like a CZ52 that shoots the 7.62x25 round at 1,700 ft/s
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Unread 02-20-2013, 08:07 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by JBTJ View Post

Unless you have something like a CZ52 that shoots the 7.62x25 round at 1,700 ft/s
Or a fn57 2,300 ft/s muzzle velocity.
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Unread 02-21-2013, 04:52 PM   #60
rha600
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Or a fn57 2,300 ft/s muzzle velocity.
Or a S&W 460 or 500 magnum, or a .44 magnum, or a .357 magnum.

The slower moving bullets like a 9mm can sometimes over penetrate even easier because there is not enough velocity to expand the bullet on impact. Or if a FMJ is used.
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