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Unread 01-07-2009, 12:08 AM   #1
GREASEMONKEY
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Concealed Carry, Vehicle Carry in SC???

I have been milling this isse over, and for some time now it's been bugging me. I have a CWP, and carry. I also remove my weapon while in my vehicle, actually driving down the road, it sits out in the open. It's in a spare galco holster stuck between the driver seat, and center console.

There is a law in SC stating that you may not transport any loaded firearm, nor while in plain view in a vehicle.(can't find it right now) In 2006 there was a revision of the Castle Doct., and the castle law now includes your vehicle as a dwelling while you are an occupant. Now that to me would nullify the older law, and give you tht same rights in your vehicle as in your home. [ I.E.- I can carry my weaponis plain sight, or leave it in plain sight while on, or in my private property.] I recently had a rather heated discussion with a local LEO that routinely asked if I had any weapons in the vehicle, and where they were. He was already holding my CWP and I told him where my gun's were. It took his demeanor about .5sec to completely change. He was now ready to arrest me for a weapon violation. I requested a supervisor to clear things up, and assured him that there was a change in law. He did let me sit uncuffed on the hood of his car while we waited on a supervisor. The supervisor shows up, and is as clueless as the officer, about any weapons laws. I ended up having to pull up the SLED website on my phone and let them read it themselves. It took a bit of talking in circles, but I did manage to get out of any charge, and was sent on my way. That was only due to the fact that they could not say for sure what that law actually means.

I'm planning on contacting my attourney, but want some opinions here as well. Legal, or just any opinion.

Do you think I'm retarded, and not defineing the law properly, just using a loop hole, or just flat out wrong.

I feel that by the state making my vehicle a dwelling (even temporary) that this has now given me the same rights that I would have standing in my living room, and basically making the confines of my vehicle private property.

You decide for yourself, here's the SCLED description of the law.

http://www.sled.sc.gov/ProtectionOfP...spx?MenuID=CWP
or
The stated intent of the legislation is to codify the common law castle doctrine, which recognizes that a person’s home is his castle, and to extend the doctrine to include an occupied vehicle and the person’s place of business. This bill authorizes the lawful use of deadly force under certain circumstances against an intruder or attacker in a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle. The bill provides that there is no duty to retreat if (1) the person is in a place where he has a right to be, including the person’s place of business, (2) the person is not engaged in an unlawful activity, and (3) the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent death, great bodily injury, or the commission of a violent crime. A person who lawfully uses deadly force is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action, unless the person against whom deadly force was used is a law enforcement officer acting in the performance of his official duties and he identifies himself in accordance with applicable law or the person using deadly force knows or reasonably should have known the person is a law enforcement officer.

H.4301 (R412) was signed by the Governor on June 9, 2006.

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Unread 01-07-2009, 06:59 AM   #2
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I read the link you posted. I live in PA and have a Carry Permit. In this state you may carry "out and open" except for in Philidelphia and I believe Pittsburg. At any rate, what you are asking is, IMO, a gray area. By the definition of the law shown, yes, you may have a firearm in your vehicle as it is now an extension of your "castle" and thusly extended all protection and deadly force rights associated with your actual property/house/home.

However, if there is a law that specifically bans the carrying of a loaded firearm in your vehicle, I would think you can't have it in your car locked and loaded. While it is an extreme and in most cases detrimental inconvenience to have load a clip, cycle a round into the chamber, and take aim on the target in order to protect oneself, it is still possible to do so.

That said, I would not take anyone's word for it on here. I would most definitely contact your closest lawyer friend (you know, the one you'll use to defend you when you get arrested...lol) and get his legal opinion on the matter. In the meantime, I would either keep your magazine and weapon seperate or not disclose the presence of the firearm in your vehicle and deny a search if requested.
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Unread 01-07-2009, 09:56 AM   #3
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I should have been a bit more clear.
It's perfectly legal to have a locked, loaded weapon in your vehicle, as long as it's in some type of latching compartment. You may carry concealed if you have a CWP, but not in the open! I'm still gonna contact my lawyer, but it's BS like this that gets me fired up. Here in SC it's a common thing for the state lawmakers to change laws, and issue laws that are contradictory of one another.
Technically it's still illeal to drive a motor vehicle in city limits of the capitol. (it scares the horses)

I wouldnt tell anyone about having the weapon, but it's a requirment of the CWP. I'm required (by law) to notify, and produce documentation to any LEO that request identification, or asks about a weapon. It's a catch 22, I tell him I have a gun, and that gives him the right to search my vehicle.
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Unread 01-07-2009, 10:06 AM   #4
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IMO (ex-LE) you are mixing 2 unrelated laws. Many laws brush against similar topics, but unless it's actually spelled out you can't make a connection or you'll get yourself in trouble. I didn't go to the link, I'm assuming the text posted underneath was a copy/paste.

Duty to retreat and right to carry are 2 separate issues best illustrated by example. Common misconception from teenage boys etc. If I want to fight you but don't want to get into trouble I can get in your face and push you over the edge until you finally snap and hit me, which point I get to claim "Self Defense" and turn you into a smear on the side of the road. That's not true, that's not self defense, it's fighting and you're both in trouble. Most states have a law that states a person has a duty to retreat from a violent situation if at all possible. So by refusing to retreat and willfully engaging in a fight, you've broken the law.

However the castle doctrine simply states that if you are in your home (or now car etc) there is no duty to retreat. So if something violent happens in your castle you do not by law to to escape the situation if given the opportunity and you can defend yourself within reason. It doesn't give you the authority to use deadly force for a situation that does not call for it, you must still use a reasonable amount of force. So if someone pokes you in the chest, you can't take a baseball bat to their head just because you're in your home. You'll end up in prison regardless of where it happens.

The new law is just extending this from your home to your car. So if someone decided to jack you (example) you don't have to get out of your car and give it to him simply because you are required to retreat from the situation.


Beyond that you need to find what law specifically lists out what can be carried in a vehicle. If there is a law that specifically says you may not have a loaded weapon in the vehicle, then that's final. If the law governing concealed carry extends the right to carry inside the vehicle, than the 1 should over-ride the other in that situation. However if the conceal carry law does not specifically allow it then you cannot make the connection between the two. Since the guy that pulled you over and his supervisor both were under the impression that carrying inside the vehicle was prohibited, I'd say don't do it again. They will have contacted whoever they needed to for verification by now and you won't get the confusion again.

All that being said, each state has their own laws so I can't say that how our statutes are written are going to be the same as yours. If you send me a copy I can give you an opinion, but your local LE and CRIMINAL, not civil atty's would be the best resource.
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Unread 01-07-2009, 08:24 PM   #5
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local LEO's tell me ammo and gun need to be seperate, unless locked in your glove box or toolbox(wtf?, i'm being car jacked so i get out of my truck to unlock my toolbox??) if unloaded, but that baby on the front seat
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Unread 01-08-2009, 12:22 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jccJeep View Post
local LEO's tell me ammo and gun need to be seperate, unless locked in your glove box or toolbox(wtf?, i'm being car jacked so i get out of my truck to unlock my toolbox??) if unloaded, but that baby on the front seat
This I know fore sure! Most LEO's in SC have little to no clue what the real weapons laws are! I have had several traffic stops turn into a real PITA because an officer doesn't know what he's talking about, and I'm not talking some little grey area either. The training of basic weapons related law has seemed to never been taught to them!

YOU CAN LEGALY CARRY A LOADED WEAPON IN YOUR VEHICLE! The only requirement is that the weapon be in a latching compartment! I carried a .25 auto in my overhead console for years, that's aside from the glock I use for concealed carry. It's perfectly legal, and the weapon does not have to be locked up! (LATCHING)
I'll try to find it on the SCLED site for ya!

The ammo & weapon being seperated thing is an old law that pertains to long guns being transported. BTW: there is no exception in the SC law for the shotguns in the police car trunks that stay loaded!

I have my lawyer working on the open carry in an automobile issue. His 10 second opinion is that the grey area is not well suited to be tested. I could very well be in the right, but do I really want to be the one that has to fight it out in court! I do believe i agree with him!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy
Duty to retreat and right to carry are 2 separate issues.
Well sort of! My connection is in a technicallity. The definition of castle in reguards to both laws. My theory is that the definition of my dwelling has now been expanded to my vehicle. That leads me to believe that the definition of my dwelling in the right to carry law has also been affected. You can only define something once, a cat is a cat, it's not a dog because it's friday! This is how I see it, and initally how my lawyer saw it. He's going to do a little more looking into it though!

I got interested in this for the odd reason of comfort, and accessability. When I drive my jeep, the seatbelt, and console both push agains my holster & handle. This puts the bottom of my grip in my ribbs. I was hoping that the vague area of the castle law was enugh to give me some relief. I like the location of the gun being beside the seat, but dont care for it being in a glove box. That's to far if i were to need it, the seatbelt restricts it, and the center console is not large enugh. I'm not looking for a fight, or to get in any trouble. I may try to push the limits a bit now and again, but I'm not looking to carry a browning .50 cal in the back seat! I just want to drive down the road in relative comfort, and SAFETY!
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Unread 01-08-2009, 04:32 AM   #7
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Every one will and can their own opinion, lawyers LEO's etc. The real only ways to clarify the law/laws are by a court test case in which I don't believe you want, or, call the State Attorney General and ask for his interpretation. They have a whole staff of people doing this full time. Be sure to ask about both laws in relation to each other, , , This has worked well in my local, even had a State Attorney rep. appear in a city court case I was involved with. Good luck.
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Unread 01-08-2009, 11:34 PM   #8
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That's exactly what the lawyer is doing. I heard from him today, and he is caontacting a friend in a state office to get some written response to the question.
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Unread 01-10-2009, 12:56 AM   #9
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Not going to quote out the whole messages.

"I feel that by the state making my vehicle a dwelling (even temporary) that this has now given me the same rights that I would have standing in my living room, and basically making the confines of my vehicle private property."

and

"Well sort of! My connection is in a technicallity. The definition of castle in reguards to both laws. My theory is that the definition of my dwelling has now been expanded to my vehicle. That leads me to believe that the definition of my dwelling in the right to carry law has also been affected. You can only define something once, a cat is a cat, it's not a dog because it's friday! This is how I see it, and initally how my lawyer saw it. He's going to do a little more looking into it though!"

What I'm stressing isn't a right/wrong. Just that you can't make that connection unless it's spelled out. It may be spelled out in the future, but you don't want it spelled out because you fought for it while sitting in jail. I like being right, probably more than most, but there s alimit I'm willing to go to for any particular point.

Fer'instance, making the association that since the castle doctrine has been re-written and now you have all the rights you normally would in your own home while in your car. I can take an 18yo home, strip her naked and bang the bejesus out of her in my living room. I can't while parked in front of a school with the top down even though it's now my 'home'.

And yes I'm intentionally using a huuuugely different example than what we're talking about. But it's the whole 'slippery slope' argument, that if one minor step from base is presumed ok, you now have a new base. And then you take 1 more little step... until I'm traumatizing both the 18yo and the school kiddies

So while the 2 subjects may brush against each other in specific circumstances, in all likelihood they'll remain 2 completely separate laws governing different things.
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Unread 02-20-2009, 11:17 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RUBIROCKER View Post
I have been milling this isse over, and for some time now it's been bugging me. I have a CWP, and carry. I also remove my weapon while in my vehicle, actually driving down the road, it sits out in the open. It's in a spare galco holster stuck between the driver seat, and center console.

There is a law in SC stating that you may not transport any loaded firearm, nor while in plain view in a vehicle.(can't find it right now) In 2006 there was a revision of the Castle Doct., and the castle law now includes your vehicle as a dwelling while you are an occupant. Now that to me would nullify the older law, and give you tht same rights in your vehicle as in your home. [ I.E.- I can carry my weaponis plain sight, or leave it in plain sight while on, or in my private property.] I recently had a rather heated discussion with a local LEO that routinely asked if I had any weapons in the vehicle, and where they were. He was already holding my CWP and I told him where my gun's were. It took his demeanor about .5sec to completely change. He was now ready to arrest me for a weapon violation. I requested a supervisor to clear things up, and assured him that there was a change in law. He did let me sit uncuffed on the hood of his car while we waited on a supervisor. The supervisor shows up, and is as clueless as the officer, about any weapons laws. I ended up having to pull up the SLED website on my phone and let them read it themselves. It took a bit of talking in circles, but I did manage to get out of any charge, and was sent on my way. That was only due to the fact that they could not say for sure what that law actually means.

I'm planning on contacting my attourney, but want some opinions here as well. Legal, or just any opinion.

Do you think I'm retarded, and not defineing the law properly, just using a loop hole, or just flat out wrong.

I feel that by the state making my vehicle a dwelling (even temporary) that this has now given me the same rights that I would have standing in my living room, and basically making the confines of my vehicle private property.

You decide for yourself, here's the SCLED description of the law.

http://www.sled.sc.gov/ProtectionOfP...spx?MenuID=CWP
or
The stated intent of the legislation is to codify the common law castle doctrine, which recognizes that a personís home is his castle, and to extend the doctrine to include an occupied vehicle and the personís place of business. This bill authorizes the lawful use of deadly force under certain circumstances against an intruder or attacker in a personís dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle. The bill provides that there is no duty to retreat if (1) the person is in a place where he has a right to be, including the personís place of business, (2) the person is not engaged in an unlawful activity, and (3) the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent death, great bodily injury, or the commission of a violent crime. A person who lawfully uses deadly force is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action, unless the person against whom deadly force was used is a law enforcement officer acting in the performance of his official duties and he identifies himself in accordance with applicable law or the person using deadly force knows or reasonably should have known the person is a law enforcement officer.

H.4301 (R412) was signed by the Governor on June 9, 2006.
Check out #9 on page 11 -

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/USRVCarCarry.pdf
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Unread 02-20-2009, 11:21 PM   #11
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if your car is a dwelling unit it better have a crapper and running water
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