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Unread 01-29-2014, 02:03 PM   #31
816jared
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaje View Post
It also depends on how you use the vehicle. If you bought a WK to use as a car and idle around making shopping trips and putting lower mileage on it. Get a gas model as the up front purchase cost is much less and you won't drive it hard and a gas engine can lug around low and get decent mileage.

If you drive it hard and put on a lot of miles city or highway and often go faster than the speed limit (these have terrible aero); use it for off roading (diesels are perfect for slippery conditions - especially snow - as they don't like to sprint the rev range but rather give a lot of twist without a lot of RPM); load it up with gear or use it to tow, then a diesel makes sense as it can get 50% better real world mpg than the v6 (will work really hard) or hemi (will work hard). The physics is that you can get max torque at 1,800 rpm to 3,600 rpm where the gas engines need almost 2x the rpms to give its best power. That's 2x the injection cycles with a fuel that has less energy density than diesel. It is not surprising that CRDs can get low 20's mpg towing small trailers - I normally get 19-20 mpg towing an open trailer with racecar and tire rack on it (about 4,000 lbs trailer / gear total).

The drawback is the issues CRDs have from cobbled together emissions equipment added and some Chrysler reliability issues and not CRD specific (4wd solenoids go out, crank sensor, PCM or ECM module, transmission issues, differential problems). The CRD you have to be more educated in order to own one without getting taken to the cleaners by a shop if you have a known problem (and this site is a great resource to find this information).
that was almost politician'esque! or maybe I missed the part where you answered if you could still argue that a CRD was a more cost efficient option for somebody who drives 10k year and does no towing?

I do have a hard time wrapping my head around a CRD being anymore capable than it's gasoline powered counterpart when it comes to the type of off-road situations that most people on this site are putting their vehicle through.

it really comes down to a couple factors imo. drive more than 15k miles/year? get a CRD! going to do lots of towing over sizable distances? get a CRD! plan on doing both? DEFINITELY get a CRD! in most all other situations get an 08+ 4.7L or a HEMI, save yourself like $5k and call it good!

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Unread 01-29-2014, 03:03 PM   #32
james_2k
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I do far less than 15k a year and still have the crd..
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Unread 01-30-2014, 08:50 AM   #33
jaje
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 816jared View Post
that was almost politician'esque! or maybe I missed the part where you answered if you could still argue that a CRD was a more cost efficient option for somebody who drives 10k year and does no towing?

I do have a hard time wrapping my head around a CRD being anymore capable than it's gasoline powered counterpart when it comes to the type of off-road situations that most people on this site are putting their vehicle through.

it really comes down to a couple factors imo. drive more than 15k miles/year? get a CRD! going to do lots of towing over sizable distances? get a CRD! plan on doing both? DEFINITELY get a CRD! in most all other situations get an 08+ 4.7L or a HEMI, save yourself like $5k and call it good!
The CRD is an "acquired taste" for many and the owners have to be more educated of the vehicle they drive as they are different and require more attention.

I never try to do the equation between a diesel and gasser by their EPA rating as it more often than not overstates a gasser's mpg as their test has nothing to do with real world (it's done on a dyno in a lab and takes only account for aero by adding "friction" to the dyno wheel). That means the vehicle can lug up to speed at low RPMs (think of the many Honda, Hyundai, Ford owners who sued the companies b/c real world mpg would not even come close to the sticker mpg). On the flip side diesels often have lower EPA ratings that you get in real world often because the engine is not worn in yet and by 20k miles their efficiency has significantly improved (by the tune of 1-2 mpg). Plus with a diesel real world driving doesn't affect its rating as much as they can lug under power and not use high rpms to get moving.

I do see your point and its valid. If you don't haul or tow and want to save money you can save quite a bit by getting (and I'm drawing this logic to the WK2) a v6 and it'll do everything you need and more (if you want to get a diesel you will find it hard to make up that delta versus the v6 as its substantially cheaper and you have to at least get a Limited to even get the diesel and it's $4,500 extra). Also the v6 is slightly faster to 60 mpg than the diesel but sprint acceleration has never been a strong suit of any diesel vehicle. Where the diesel makes sense is when you only compare it to the Hemi where it costs only $500 - $2,500 more (depending on options as the diesel includes several forced options such as the lux package on the 4x4 limited where you can get a Hemi without it).

Just don't forget in your evaluation that in 3-5 years you may not want to keep it and as the market demands - a diesel will have a higher resale value so you'll get more for your trade or private sale and more often than not recoup your higher upfront investment (all the while saving at the pump and to me the most important not having to visit the gas station as often) - I'm not much of a shopper for lottery tickets, donuts, 64 oz sodas, or energy drinks.

Something fun: Citroen AX 1.4 diesel (52 hp) doing sub 10 mins at Nordschliefe
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Unread 01-30-2014, 06:32 PM   #34
caddydaddy
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All this talk of initial cost vs gas engine is irrelevant now. A CRD hasn't been in a WK in the US in 6 years. I bought a used one, and yes, it was priced a bit higher than a comparable gas WK. I'm very happy with the CRD's fuel mileage that a gas V-6 owner would be happy to get, PLUS I can actually tow something substantial.
Diesels aren't for everybody, but I am happy with mine!
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Unread 01-30-2014, 07:08 PM   #35
816jared
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaje View Post
The CRD is an "acquired taste" for many and the owners have to be more educated of the vehicle they drive as they are different and require more attention.

I never try to do the equation between a diesel and gasser by their EPA rating as it more often than not overstates a gasser's mpg as their test has nothing to do with real world (it's done on a dyno in a lab and takes only account for aero by adding "friction" to the dyno wheel). That means the vehicle can lug up to speed at low RPMs (think of the many Honda, Hyundai, Ford owners who sued the companies b/c real world mpg would not even come close to the sticker mpg). On the flip side diesels often have lower EPA ratings that you get in real world often because the engine is not worn in yet and by 20k miles their efficiency has significantly improved (by the tune of 1-2 mpg). Plus with a diesel real world driving doesn't affect its rating as much as they can lug under power and not use high rpms to get moving.

I do see your point and its valid. If you don't haul or tow and want to save money you can save quite a bit by getting (and I'm drawing this logic to the WK2) a v6 and it'll do everything you need and more (if you want to get a diesel you will find it hard to make up that delta versus the v6 as its substantially cheaper and you have to at least get a Limited to even get the diesel and it's $4,500 extra). Also the v6 is slightly faster to 60 mpg than the diesel but sprint acceleration has never been a strong suit of any diesel vehicle. Where the diesel makes sense is when you only compare it to the Hemi where it costs only $500 - $2,500 more (depending on options as the diesel includes several forced options such as the lux package on the 4x4 limited where you can get a Hemi without it).

Just don't forget in your evaluation that in 3-5 years you may not want to keep it and as the market demands - a diesel will have a higher resale value so you'll get more for your trade or private sale and more often than not recoup your higher upfront investment (all the while saving at the pump and to me the most important not having to visit the gas station as often) - I'm not much of a shopper for lottery tickets, donuts, 64 oz sodas, or energy drinks.

Something fun: Citroen AX 1.4 diesel (52 hp) doing sub 10 mins at Nordschliefe
Finally something we agree on! CRD owners are fanboys!

Any math I've done is from personal real world results in my 2005 4.7L, my EVIC shows 16mpg+ all the time, sometimes as high as 18mpg. I used 16mpg for gas and 23mpg for diesel when plugging in numbers.

I'd have to disagree about differences in prices, though. I've actually been shopping CRD's recently as I'm right on that borderline where it'd make sense financially for me to do something like that. In WK's, you're looking at more like $3k as far as difference in price between a similarly equipped CRD and HEMI.
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Unread 01-30-2014, 10:53 PM   #36
manny31
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Get a diesel, do the crankcase vent and GDE tune and enjoy. Learn how to change oil correctly, fuel filter and glow plug. Thats it
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Unread 01-31-2014, 03:52 PM   #37
1dzlwk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scootr29 View Post
Have you implemented the known fixes of the swirl motors issues? We have made it very clear that a Jeep dealer and a Swirl Motor repair do not mix..ever. Seems you have only one issues with the CRD engine and it is the one issue that everyone knows about.

Why not exercise your rights and trade or sell the CRD?

There are a handful of people on here who love to tinker with their CRD. You will notice that the same group of people generally post and discuss their CRD.

Not sure what state you are in, but seems to me you have a Lemon Law case.....
If by "implemented the known fixes" you mean have I defeated my CCV emission control devices, I don't believe in that solution, so no, I have not/will not go down that road.

The vehicle belonged to my wife before we were married, so I inherited it. She'll be the one to make the decision to keep/dump it, and she's starting to come around to the notion of trading it off while it still has some of the extended warranty left on it.

The state I'm in does have a "lemon law", but it only applies in the first 12 months of ownership, so we're way beyond that solution.




Quote:
Originally Posted by 816jared View Post
that was almost politician'esque! or maybe I missed the part where you answered if you could still argue that a CRD was a more cost efficient option for somebody who drives 10k year and does no towing?

I do have a hard time wrapping my head around a CRD being anymore capable than it's gasoline powered counterpart when it comes to the type of off-road situations that most people on this site are putting their vehicle through.

it really comes down to a couple factors imo. drive more than 15k miles/year? get a CRD! going to do lots of towing over sizable distances? get a CRD! plan on doing both? DEFINITELY get a CRD! in most all other situations get an 08+ 4.7L or a HEMI, save yourself like $5k and call it good!
My problems aside, people crunching EPA numbers for cost/benefit comparisons should realize that diesels almost always comfortably exceed their EPA ratings. The EPA test cycle is notoriously hostile toward diesels for some reason. The EPA said my CRD was only good for 23mpg on the highway, yet that's what it delivers in town, while typically returning 25-26 on the highway. I've also found that it'll do a good 10% better than that at high altitude (7-10k ft). How often, and under what circumstances, will a HEMI WK exceed (or even equal) its EPA rating?

Another aspect that doesn't show up in the numbers, unless you look carefully, is the driveability benefit. Most folks who are just driving around are operating their vehicles in the 1500-2500rpm range. That's right where diesels hit hardest...they are tuned to deliver their very best in day-to-day use. A HEMI only has CRD torque if you rev it to well over 3000rpm. Cost/benefit comparisons typically ignore this substantial driveability benefit of a diesel, a benefit that manifests itself every time the car moves. How do you put a dollar value on that?
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Unread 02-01-2014, 06:05 AM   #38
james_2k
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Very true
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Unread 02-01-2014, 05:22 PM   #39
dfw
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I have a Liberty CRD and a 2008 GC CRD. My Liberty is my everyday driver and is now at 132k and going strong. I save my GC CRD for long hauls, mostly towing. For that reason, I only have 40k on my GC. Of that 40k, I estimate that 25k are towing miles. Since before I acquired my diesels I towed with a v6 gasser, I have direct basis for comparison. The gasser will tow at about 11mpg; and the diesels tow the same rig at 17 to 20 mpg. Refueling with gas typically yields about 200 mile intervals; vs about 300 miles with diesels. For the long distance towing that I do, this is a big payoff in time and cost savings.

I have done only one long distance trip with the GC without towing and measured a total trip mileage calculation of 24.5mpg typically driving at 65 to 85 mph.

Except for a radio replacement while still under warranty, my GC CRD has been trouble free and required only scheduled maintenance.
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Unread 02-01-2014, 10:20 PM   #40
Drudgery1971
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OP - did you make up your mind yet? Anyone with a diesel will be adamant about it. The reason is most have already experienced a HEMI and said wow........ then they drive a CRD and say holy buckets..... I happened to have both..... and the CRD is the bomb all around if you can find a solidly maintained vehicle. Have 105k on mine and planning on 250k more. Wife's Hemi is going away as soon as I pay it off. It is simply a pig on fuel and given we have the WK CRD I frankly should have put her in a new Libby. We are 40ish and have kids, had a Liberty CRD previousy (wrecked) and then went in the larger Jeeps. Good luck and let everyone what the status is in you search.
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Unread 02-02-2014, 08:42 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1dzlwk View Post
If by "implemented the known fixes" you mean have I defeated my CCV emission control devices, I don't believe in that solution, so no, I have not/will not go down that road.
I've also found that it'll do a good 10% better than that at high altitude (7-10k ft).
1 - I'm not sure why you're against tuning the engine to fix the swirl motor issue. The benefits are incredible!

2 - At altitude, the CRD is a BEAST. I drove my CRD like I stole it, up through the Rocky Mountains in the height of summer last year. I topped it out a few times (175-180 kph, in case you were wondering). Over a 330 mile distance through the Rockies I managed to get 24 MPG. It's mind blowing!
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Unread 02-02-2014, 09:11 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 816jared View Post
Finally something we agree on! CRD owners are fanboys! .
..
WRONG.


The CRD 3.0 is a reliable engine. I've seen some with over 750K miles.

You just are not going to get that reliability from your GAS engine.

Diesel's are Low maintenance and reliable.

This is the same engine as used in the sprinter delivery trucks.
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Unread 02-03-2014, 07:55 AM   #43
chrali
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I have a crd and I am no fan boy, I would drop it like a hot brick if it was unreliable, or I had to fiddle with it all of the time. Quite simply it isn't and I don't. I havnt lifted the bonnet since a year ago and that was just for the oil change. The OP wants an off road rig. In that case does he want a maximum attack revvy Hemi, or more of a low speed masses of torque diesel?
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Unread 02-05-2014, 04:28 AM   #44
1dzlwk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrali View Post
...emissions equipment is messing up pretty much all modern motors and will continue to do so...
I don't agree at all. This was true maybe through the very early 90s; after that, all the things that comprise modern emissions equipment (electronic ignitions/injection, etc.) have demonstrably helped engines to run better/cleaner, and to last longer as a result...
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrali View Post
...I don't know if the 3% of WK production includes Europe, but you must surely know that literally hundreds of thousands of vehicles use that engine, and the vast majority of WH/XH in Europe are CRD...
European versions of this engine don't/didn't utilize the same intake system that's giving many of us fits in the U.S.



Quote:
Originally Posted by RMC_xj View Post
1 - I'm not sure why you're against tuning the engine to fix the swirl motor issue. The benefits are incredible!...
As near as I've been able to determine, any tuning or modification solution that eliminates the swirl motor problem also deactivates at least some aspect of the emission control system. I won't do that because I'm one of those odd people who likes to breath clean air. My car still has the original exhaust system on it at 77,000 miles. Recently, I had the car on my friend's hoist for a brake job. I was standing behind the car and happened to be holding a trouble light, so I shined it up the tail pipe. You can see all the way to the front of the muffler inside there...and I'm dead serious when I say that it looked just like a brand new, unused muffler inside! I then stuck my clean finger into the tail pipe, rubbed it around, and it was just as clean when I pulled it out. I really like that, and my friend (an engineer who works on heavy dump trucks in his shop) was speechless. If I have to give that up in order to avoid future swirl motor issues, then my solution is to sell the car and not look back, as it's just not worth it to me to dump my problems on everyone else in my environment without them even having a say in the issue. But, that's just me. You do whatever you want.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMC_xj View Post
...Over a 330 mile distance through the Rockies I managed to get 24 MPG. It's mind blowing!
A couple of years ago, we took the CRD out to Yellowstone Park. We filled the tank right outside the park (far cheaper!) before we drove in. We were in the park for a week, driving everywhere. Our lodge was at the lowest altitude (7000 feet) and the highest spots IIRC were at about 11,000 feet. The week comprised climbing mountains, coasting back down them, some flat running, and quite a bit of stand-still idling (waiting for buffalo, staying warm, etc.). When we filled up again at the same station outside the park, I crunched the numbers and found that the car had given over 28mpg. And, mind you, it never once felt as though it was missing any power at all. There were people there with gasser SUVs complaining about loss of power going up those grades, but we never felt any such thing...
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Unread 02-05-2014, 04:53 AM   #45
james_2k
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1dzlwk View Post
European versions of this engine don't/didn't utilize the same intake system that's giving many of us fits in the U.S.

.
er no its the same
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