WK build- "The Badger" - Page 4 - JeepForum.com
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post #46 of 87 Old 02-04-2017, 11:11 AM
derpboss
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Nitro is the only company that makes gears for our fronts and 4.10s are the only ones they made. It's like $800 for the gears figure $200ish per axles in labor.

For rear bumpers there are a few options out there none of which house rear winches that I know of, maybe you can call one of the people making them and request them set one up as a one off.

Crawl offroad is shipping their first batch later this month. I'd say they look the best, also the most expensive.

FMJ offroad. All of them come powder coated, aluminum options. Second ugliest design imo. They are supposedly very open to customizing things though.

WAM! bumpers. ugliest design.

Logans metal products. second best looking imo. If they're still honoring the price they told me last august, it's pretty reasonable. But you have to call to order it. http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f67/l...17/index2.html

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post #47 of 87 Old 02-04-2017, 02:42 PM
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Rear bumper with winch mount.......meh......that's gonna be hard to come by and to what advantage? Couple snatch blocks and your front winch does the trick. Rear tire carrier always a bonus. If/when you add a rear bar w/tire the rear will definitely come down some..

As far as gears - I always felt it unfortunate that there isn't an outfit that developed a deeper gear package for the WK. The past few years have put the platform in good position for broader modifications. Really cool stuff out there in the WK/XK world for wheelin/over landing rigs.

I'm diggin the build - looks capable as hell and very similar to the Nitro Gear WK

~Mike~


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post #48 of 87 Old 02-05-2017, 08:42 PM Thread Starter
azzkicker
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Good info in those couple of posts. I just did the math with my exact tire spec, and 4.10 gears will put me almost as low as stock was (98%). On the stock tires, with 3.73 gears, it takes 2,626 driveline revs to go 1 mile. On the exact tire I bought, with 4.10 gears I would take 2,563 driveline revs to go the same mile. Stock would still be a little lower (about 2%), and of course the rotating mass was lower and my overall vehicle is getting heavier by the minute.

So 4.10 gears would put my ratio almost back to what I drove off the lot with, but not quite. I'd rather go 4.56, but I'm seeing an easy path for 4.10, and possibly a very big hassle trying to get any more. I already have the modification module that will let me enter 4.10 instead of 3.73, and I'm ready to go.

If I stay with the 3.73 gears, I've lost about 12% in gear ratio. The price doesn't sound bad. I will probably not make that decision until I've wheeled it in the sand. If the gears feel low enough for sand, I'll probably just leave it.

07 WK 5.7 QD2, 4" lift, 33X10" tires, M8000s
ARB twin air,Dual AGM group 49, sliders and skids
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post #49 of 87 Old 02-05-2017, 09:47 PM
derpboss
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azzkicker View Post
Good info in those couple of posts. I just did the math with my exact tire spec, and 4.10 gears will put me almost as low as stock was (98%). On the stock tires, with 3.73 gears, it takes 2,626 driveline revs to go 1 mile. On the exact tire I bought, with 4.10 gears I would take 2,563 driveline revs to go the same mile. Stock would still be a little lower (about 2%), and of course the rotating mass was lower and my overall vehicle is getting heavier by the minute.

So 4.10 gears would put my ratio almost back to what I drove off the lot with, but not quite. I'd rather go 4.56, but I'm seeing an easy path for 4.10, and possibly a very big hassle trying to get any more. I already have the modification module that will let me enter 4.10 instead of 3.73, and I'm ready to go.

If I stay with the 3.73 gears, I've lost about 12% in gear ratio. The price doesn't sound bad. I will probably not make that decision until I've wheeled it in the sand. If the gears feel low enough for sand, I'll probably just leave it.
Again, without customizing your entire front end and putting in a different differential set up, or a solid axle, you're limited to 4.10 max as it's the highest gearing made for our front ends.

If weight is a concern, go with an aluminum rear from FMJ offroad, and talk to them about a rear winch set up. Or you could get a trailer hitch cradle.
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post #50 of 87 Old 02-05-2017, 10:20 PM Thread Starter
azzkicker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepN4KC View Post
Rear bumper with winch mount.......meh......that's gonna be hard to come by and to what advantage? Couple snatch blocks and your front winch does the trick. Rear tire carrier always a bonus. If/when you add a rear bar w/tire the rear will definitely come down some..

As far as gears - I always felt it unfortunate that there isn't an outfit that developed a deeper gear package for the WK. The past few years have put the platform in good position for broader modifications. Really cool stuff out there in the WK/XK world for wheelin/over landing rigs.

I'm diggin the build - looks capable as hell and very similar to the Nitro Gear WK

Thanks, and I'm digging this build too. The jeep is much more fun around town than I was expecting, so my truck is getting a little lonely.

As for the stock rear bumper, it looks like something that will come home tied to the roof if I have a fun day, so I'd like to get something meatier. I jack rigs up by the bumper too, and I can't with the stock one (I can jack from the receiver with a D ring).

I've had two rigs before that had a winch front and back, and it worked almost always like this: the front winch gets other people out, because it's easier to see the cable spooling. The rear winch gets me out, because I usually just need to go a few feet back to get my boots on better ground and come up with a new plan. Receiver winches look stupid and have to be stored somewhere.

I've actually done a lot of math on the reverse winching idea, which is interesting but I think it's pretty limited. I saw a few demo videos, and no real recoveries. I saw two fail on flat ground, with the vehicle freewheeling, and the other didn't look very powerful. There's a couple of big challenges with it, first and foremost you need trees in convenient places that are all close to your rig. Second, you need 3 snatch blocks (I have 3 in my jeep box, so I'm there). Third, your line spools on one end.

I'm an engineer, so I know how to calculate pulleys, angles, etc. The way to understand what's happening (load wise) is to realize that the tension in the cable is roughly the same all the way from the winch to the hook (with snatch blocks, it's close enough). Using a snatch block only doubles the pull when you come straight back to the rig. That is because there is, say 8,000 pounds of pull on the cable, but you get to count the line out to the snatch block, and the line back. That's 16,000 pounds total. Now, if you put the snatch block off angle from the direction of travel, you use the sine or cosine of the angle (depending on how you set it up).

In a reverse winch setup, the first two snatch blocks only change direction for the cable. With just two, you pull about the same force on the rear as you do on the front, and you have a side force due to the trees being off to the side, so you might move sideways, but not backwards. When you put the third snatch block on the rear of the rig, then take the line to a sturdy tree behind you, you have two lines pulling on the rear, and one on the front. You still have considerable de-rating of your winch, considerable side force, and you run out of line quick.

I'd need a sketch for this to make much sense, but if your trees are 45 degrees off from your line of travel, and you use 3 snatch blocks, you can have an 8,000 pound winch pull end up with a total rear force of 10,300 pounds, stretching your frame about 5,000 pounds worth, and with a side force trying to slide or roll you of about 5,700 pounds. And your cable all wants to ball up on one side of your drum, so you have to keep stopping to re-spool (2 feet of cable for every foot of rearward motion). The really clean way to do it would be to have an external frame and rigidly mount pulleys on two corners, then you can pull rearward with full force and not much extra cable.

I want to write up some sketches and show the math on this, and on using a bridle to pull from both front hooks. I used to see a lot of tow hooks bent toward each other from those, and I've seen some videos of those breaking where people just call it a bad link, but it's bad rigging that made the load much higher than it looks. I even saw a tv show about wreckers where they broke a chain, called it bad luck, but it was absolutely rigged to put many times more load on the chain than his winch was pulling.

07 WK 5.7 QD2, 4" lift, 33X10" tires, M8000s
ARB twin air,Dual AGM group 49, sliders and skids
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post #51 of 87 Old 02-05-2017, 10:40 PM Thread Starter
azzkicker
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I'm making good progress on the cargo space. I've got the very solid brackets mounted next to each window, I just got the plastic cut around the brackets and put back in. It looks pretty good. The two pieces of unistrut are to mount boards across from window to window to fit my 60" hi-lift and full size shovel.





07 WK 5.7 QD2, 4" lift, 33X10" tires, M8000s
ARB twin air,Dual AGM group 49, sliders and skids
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post #52 of 87 Old 02-05-2017, 10:51 PM Thread Starter
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Just a reminder of how far it's come. The stock photo isn't mine because I didn't take "before" photos, but this is what it looked like.




07 WK 5.7 QD2, 4" lift, 33X10" tires, M8000s
ARB twin air,Dual AGM group 49, sliders and skids
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post #53 of 87 Old 02-06-2017, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azzkicker View Post
Thanks, and I'm digging this build too. The jeep is much more fun around town than I was expecting, so my truck is getting a little lonely.

As for the stock rear bumper, it looks like something that will come home tied to the roof if I have a fun day, so I'd like to get something meatier. I jack rigs up by the bumper too, and I can't with the stock one (I can jack from the receiver with a D ring).

I've had two rigs before that had a winch front and back, and it worked almost always like this: the front winch gets other people out, because it's easier to see the cable spooling. The rear winch gets me out, because I usually just need to go a few feet back to get my boots on better ground and come up with a new plan. Receiver winches look stupid and have to be stored somewhere.

I've actually done a lot of math on the reverse winching idea, which is interesting but I think it's pretty limited. I saw a few demo videos, and no real recoveries. I saw two fail on flat ground, with the vehicle freewheeling, and the other didn't look very powerful. There's a couple of big challenges with it, first and foremost you need trees in convenient places that are all close to your rig. Second, you need 3 snatch blocks (I have 3 in my jeep box, so I'm there). Third, your line spools on one end.

I'm an engineer, so I know how to calculate pulleys, angles, etc. The way to understand what's happening (load wise) is to realize that the tension in the cable is roughly the same all the way from the winch to the hook (with snatch blocks, it's close enough). Using a snatch block only doubles the pull when you come straight back to the rig. That is because there is, say 8,000 pounds of pull on the cable, but you get to count the line out to the snatch block, and the line back. That's 16,000 pounds total. Now, if you put the snatch block off angle from the direction of travel, you use the sine or cosine of the angle (depending on how you set it up).

In a reverse winch setup, the first two snatch blocks only change direction for the cable. With just two, you pull about the same force on the rear as you do on the front, and you have a side force due to the trees being off to the side, so you might move sideways, but not backwards. When you put the third snatch block on the rear of the rig, then take the line to a sturdy tree behind you, you have two lines pulling on the rear, and one on the front. You still have considerable de-rating of your winch, considerable side force, and you run out of line quick.

I'd need a sketch for this to make much sense, but if your trees are 45 degrees off from your line of travel, and you use 3 snatch blocks, you can have an 8,000 pound winch pull end up with a total rear force of 10,300 pounds, stretching your frame about 5,000 pounds worth, and with a side force trying to slide or roll you of about 5,700 pounds. And your cable all wants to ball up on one side of your drum, so you have to keep stopping to re-spool (2 feet of cable for every foot of rearward motion). The really clean way to do it would be to have an external frame and rigidly mount pulleys on two corners, then you can pull rearward with full force and not much extra cable.

I want to write up some sketches and show the math on this, and on using a bridle to pull from both front hooks. I used to see a lot of tow hooks bent toward each other from those, and I've seen some videos of those breaking where people just call it a bad link, but it's bad rigging that made the load much higher than it looks. I even saw a tv show about wreckers where they broke a chain, called it bad luck, but it was absolutely rigged to put many times more load on the chain than his winch was pulling.
Right - I'm familiar with all the mechanical advantage, change of direction, critical angles and such..........I was just saying if the desire was to have a reverse pull you could achieve it with your current set-up.

Just seems like a lot of weight and cost - but then again to be a totally self sufficient rig I see the advantage of fore/aft winching capabilites........plus a solid rear bumper for hi-lift jacking is a no brainer

And yes - receiver mounted winch..........no thanks..

~Mike~


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post #54 of 87 Old 02-06-2017, 08:21 AM Thread Starter
azzkicker
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I'll be the first to admit the rear winch is overkill, especially since I carry a hand winch, hi-lift, shovel, pick, and axe, and I bring a teenager to do all the labor. I'm also planning to look for a club or some guys that wheel around Tillamook to go with. Once you have multiple winches, it gets pretty rare that you need the rear one (you can still get where there's no place to put the other guy's winch).

That's pretty sexy overkill, though, isn't it? I just looked up the FMJ site, and they make a pretty good looking rear bumper (not quite as sexy as the metal pasja, but their on my continent and they look like they would customize it for me. I'm going to try one more thing to see if I can mount that spare inside, because I don't want the spare hanging out there if I can avoid it, and I don't want it on the roof. I'm pretty sure it isn't going to fit, but once I verify that in the next few days I'll try to order a custom FMJ bumper. I could cough up the receiver hitch in exchange for a hawse fairlead and winch mount.

Now I'm getting excited!

This is probably my last chance to get out offroading, for health reasons. I really missed it already, but thought I had plenty of time and should save more money first. I might regret not having everything I want on this, but I won't regret trying. I already have a big screen TV mounted to the wall, so I'm all set for sitting on my *** once I can't get out.

Everything I regret in my life (that was my decision) has to do with what I put off too long. I should have built this thing years ago, even if I had to borrow money to do it. Now I'm ordering stuff I don't need, just to check it out (like the ARB hand winch, which is really cool).

I was leaning toward an aluminum bumper to save weight, and I did go with aluminum skid plates, but my wise buddy is talking me into steel for the bumper. He's pointing out that if really bang up the aluminum, the whole thing is trash, but steel can be beaten, patched, and repainted pretty easy. I think what I'll do is find out how much the steel one weighs, and if there isn't a lot of weight to lose, just do that. First, though, I have to decide if I want the spare tire mount.

07 WK 5.7 QD2, 4" lift, 33X10" tires, M8000s
ARB twin air,Dual AGM group 49, sliders and skids
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post #55 of 87 Old 02-12-2017, 08:53 PM Thread Starter
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The cargo area is coming out pretty well. The photos are hard to make out, but until there's a sunny day, I won't get better ones. I have a 60" hi-lift, full size shovel, and axe, all mounted to the shelf. It's very solid, and I can't even wiggle the hi-lift or the mounts. The axe and shovel are mounted using "quick fist" rubber mounts, so it's secure but it can wiggle a little. Nothing can come over the top of the jack. The bolts holding the jack down go through metal straps, which have the board mounting bolts passing through them. For the jack to come loose, a number of grade 5 bolts and steel parts would have to fail, in addition to the 1.125" plywood. I'm still going to run a safety cable over the top, but it's really a belt and suspenders at this point.

On the left side of the first picture is a machete, which can be quick drawn from the cargo door without removing the scabbard. It can come in and out only when the door is open.

I got the plywood mounted across between the windows, and I added some thin plywood shields so if I miss the mounting bolts I won't hit the glass. It has two 1/2" bolts with wing nuts to hold down the 60" hi-lift extraction tool. The foot has to be removed, but that has a quick pin so that's easy. The foot is held down under the jack.

There are two of the quick fist mounts under the plywood for the axe, and two on the face toward the rear for the shovel. Either of those can be had without removing anything else, and the jack just needs the shovel out of the way.

I'd like to tweak the jack mounting bolts a little more, but it's working and I'm ready to move on to something else. I did get some eye bolts mounted through the metal floor, with good backing, but I haven't yet cut a hole through the load floor to get at them. That should be easy.








07 WK 5.7 QD2, 4" lift, 33X10" tires, M8000s
ARB twin air,Dual AGM group 49, sliders and skids
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post #56 of 87 Old 02-12-2017, 09:01 PM Thread Starter
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Here's a couple pics of the oversize H8 AGM battery I put in the factory tray. It was very easy to use a chisel and hammer to knock 6 little plastic fingers out of the way, then the stock tray and stock hold-down bracket work flawlessly with it.



07 WK 5.7 QD2, 4" lift, 33X10" tires, M8000s
ARB twin air,Dual AGM group 49, sliders and skids
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post #57 of 87 Old 02-12-2017, 09:11 PM Thread Starter
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I don't know if mentioned this issue, but these cables (I think they're the emergency brake system) were under the roll bar. It looked fine on the ground, but on the lift, they were being stretched pretty bad by the time the shocks stopped the axle from dropping. The solution was simple; just pull the sway bar and put it back under those cables.


07 WK 5.7 QD2, 4" lift, 33X10" tires, M8000s
ARB twin air,Dual AGM group 49, sliders and skids
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post #58 of 87 Old 02-18-2017, 09:07 PM Thread Starter
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On Friday the steel armadillo armor was put on (ironically it was the aluminum option), the new panhard rod, and the bracket was welded. Hopefully that will stop the driveline from hitting the gas tank. Iíll test that out in the next few days. One of the things I got was the locking center console, which Iíll use as a gun safe and to keep spare cash.






I also got a twin compressor ARB kit put in. The two compressors are mounted by the firewall on the passenger side. The air tank is mounted in a void in the ARB bumper. The air chuck is mounted on a bracket right behind the headlight. The switch is on the dash, and it can run when switched on, but it will stop when the set pressure is met. Iíd rather it required the engine to be on, but thatís not how itís wired, and unless a leak started, it wouldnít kill the battery.







I built myself a regulator and manifold, with 4 hoses and self-holding tire chucks. It should be able to air all four tires to the regulator set pressure, then the compressors will fill the tank to that set pressure and shut off. I should be able to hook it up and ignore it. Iíll test that in the morning.
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07 WK 5.7 QD2, 4" lift, 33X10" tires, M8000s
ARB twin air,Dual AGM group 49, sliders and skids
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post #59 of 87 Old 02-18-2017, 09:16 PM Thread Starter
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I've been playing with the exhaust, and just exchanged a large magnaflow for a shorter one (but with a bigger ID). I love the sound. No droning.

Now I don't have the resonator or that giant stock muffler, but I still have the cats. I talked to the guy doing my exhaust about replacing those for being old, and he said since they weren't discolored, they shouldn't need replaced. Anybody have a different take on that? I have 95,000 miles on the hemi.

07 WK 5.7 QD2, 4" lift, 33X10" tires, M8000s
ARB twin air,Dual AGM group 49, sliders and skids
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post #60 of 87 Old 02-21-2017, 11:02 PM Thread Starter
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I finally got this little piggy out on the trails, both snow and sand this weekend. The driveline hit the tank skid plate again, so that's getting cut next. I need to hurry up and order a tow dolly so my ride home isn't the jeep. I found one with a 6500 pound capacity and electric brakes, so that should just barely do it. I stopped at a scale on the way back and it rang in at 6250, with about 450 of that being people. The total weight that I'd be putting on the dolly would be 6800 pounds, but once I get my winch mount rear bumper, spare tire carrier, winch, and second battery, I figure I'll be about 6,200 pounds.

It was doing pretty well until it hit the skid plate. I aired down with my new trail deflators, and aired back up with my new ARB twin compressor setup. I built a regulated manifold and four hoses so I can fill all four tires at once. The setup is completely automatic, so the regulator stops sending air when the tires reach the set point (30psi right now), then the compressors bring the tank up to 120psi (or whatever it's set at) and they shut off. I tested it in the driveway with the engine off, to see if the battery would die, and it didn't. I timed the fill from 10psi to 30psi, all four tires (33"), and it took just over 8 minutes with the engine off. I didn't time it with the engine running, but it went a lot faster. I'd guess 5 minutes or so.



The manifold was pretty easy to put together, and I think is well worth the trouble if you air up very often. It got all four tires within about a pound of each other, very quickly, and involved almost no kneeling by the tires. That's a big deal to me, but less of a problem for most wheelers I imagine.

The stability control lost its mind after the sand, but pretty quickly shut itself off and just left the warning light on. I haven't investigated the issue yet, but the first thing I'm going to try is putting more air in the tires. I'm not sure why that would be the problem, but it'd be easy to check and it was the last thing I screwed with.
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07 WK 5.7 QD2, 4" lift, 33X10" tires, M8000s
ARB twin air,Dual AGM group 49, sliders and skids
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