WK build- "The Badger" - Page 2 - JeepForum.com
 13Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #16 of 87 Old 01-05-2017, 01:42 AM Thread Starter
azzkicker
Registered User
2007 WK 
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Beaverton
Posts: 629
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bangarng View Post
Am I the only one who thinks dumping 15 to 30k into a 2007 with 95 thousand miles crazy, or just plain dumb? If I had 30k cash I'd get a Ford Raptor and be done with it. With that being said I am now subscribed. I can't wait to see what you do.
I drove a couple of Raptors before I bought my last F150. I didn't like the on road behavior, but I'm sure I'd like the offroad talent. A full size, and full width, would not do everything I want to do, and once it's on a flat bed trailer, it will exceed my motorhome's 8K tow rating.

Nice trucks though, and I might get one when my 2014 F150 retires.

And yes, it's crazy and dumb, but It's what I want to do. And as my other post mentions, the goodies are probably transferable to my next WK. And by the way, this hemi jeep, stock at least, will slaughter a raptor for at least a block. It's hilarious when the lane is about to end. The raptor has plenty of offroad specs, so I mean no disrespect, but it doesn't fit well between trees, and we have a lot of those.


07 WK 5.7 QD2, 4" lift, 33X10" tires, M8000s
ARB twin air,Dual AGM group 49, sliders and skids
azzkicker is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #17 of 87 Old 01-05-2017, 01:50 AM Thread Starter
azzkicker
Registered User
2007 WK 
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Beaverton
Posts: 629
Quote:
Originally Posted by derpboss View Post
Depends on what you want. A 2007 in great condition at those miles fetches 13-14k alone. I plan on dumping close to 10k into mine when it's all said and done. But that includes a modified superlift, which requires nearly $3000+ in parts at a minimum between the 2 lifts, and aftermarket upper control arms. an adjustable track bar. bumpers front and rear we'll call it 2k. $800 up front, $1200+ in the rear. a superchips is $300-400 for the traildash I bought. 5 35's or 37's are $2k roughly if you buy new. Sliders were $400. skidplates were $600 for asfir ones. Way more if you want 4xguards.

Then you'll ideally want custom length front and rear drive shafts. Those are $400 or so each. so $800. then adjustable rear control arms, $200 for IRO WJ lowers, but the WK rears are $300 if you don't know about the WJ's being the same exact fit. so that's another $500-600. Don't forget those differential bushings, close to $300 I think for the jeepperf poly ones. Oh and regearing is another $800 for the parts.

And this all includes absolutely no labor. Just assuming you do EVERYTHING yourself.

Most of us do it over time, but if he has the bank and the wifes permission, He can have a very cool jeep in the near future. He will literally never make his money back, ever. But he could have it for the next 5 years easy. 10+ if he takes care of it and it isn't a DD, unless he overheats it and drops a valve, LMFAO.
Very true sir. And this will not be my daily driver. I have a really nice F150 that I just love driving. In fact, this thing will be towed out to the woods behind that F150 or the motorhome. It won't get many miles, relatively speaking. It will get rough miles, but parts are made to be replaced. If it breaks out in the woods, I'll get it onto the trailer and fix it wherever I choose. Or let it sit a while if I'm not feeling up to it.

07 WK 5.7 QD2, 4" lift, 33X10" tires, M8000s
ARB twin air,Dual AGM group 49, sliders and skids
azzkicker is offline  
post #18 of 87 Old 01-05-2017, 08:44 AM Thread Starter
azzkicker
Registered User
2007 WK 
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Beaverton
Posts: 629
Back to the plan. 33" tires were the first thing I decided on, figuring that's the minimum size that will perform well in the woods and sand, but keeping the rig low enough that I can play at some speed without rolling, and keeping the ride as close to stock as practical.

I wanted a beefy mud tread, and I wanted them as narrow as I could get. I love the turning radius on the stock WK, and narrow tires will help me keep a lot of it. My gut feel has always been that narrow is better, and after doing a lot of google searching, that seems to be true in most terrain, and where wider is better, it's not much better. I know from experience that wider tires have more bump steer and wander more in pavement ruts.

The tire I found was this one (the pic should show up after I hit 25 posts). It's a BF goodrich mud terrain T/A KM2. It's a 33.3" by 10.0" tire, with a labeled size of LT 255/80R17. When I was researching tires, I found that while there are translations that will tell you supposed dimensions based on the metric designation, each manufacturer and each tire line varied significantly. What I had to do was search manufacturers websites and find the actual spec chart for each tire line that I liked. That's how I found this tire, after being told at several tire stores that 12.5 is the narrowest 33" tire I can get. It isn't. I found 10.5, 11.3, etc. I had to find the tire myself, then tell America's Tire to order it.

I think I mentioned my first mistake was searching in a 15" tire without knowing the big brakes up front require a 17" rim. Oh well, the tires came in before the lift, and when I ran one over to Accessory Outfitters, they quickly, and politely, pointed out my mistake. In my defense, I shopped for that wheel at the tire store to get the right bolt pattern, and they didn't catch it either. They did give me a full refund so I could order the right ones.

Some manufacturers, like goodyear, didn't have dimensions on their website. I did a chat with goodyear tech service, and found that they were completely ignoring that I told them what dimensions I wanted, and kept telling me to check the door sticker to see what size fits. I told them over and over that I knew what dimensions fit, and I just need them to tell me the dimensions of their various tire sizes, and they told me it varied from vehicle to vehicle. He didn't get it, so they missed out on a couple grand.

The lift manufacturer said a 5.5" backspace is the maximum allowable, so I had that research to do also. I'll get into the rim next.

Tire photo with specs:

07 WK 5.7 QD2, 4" lift, 33X10" tires, M8000s
ARB twin air,Dual AGM group 49, sliders and skids
azzkicker is offline  
 
post #19 of 87 Old 01-05-2017, 08:58 AM Thread Starter
azzkicker
Registered User
2007 WK 
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Beaverton
Posts: 629
Next I had to pick a rim. I had found an awesome offroad rim in 15", but that line didn't come in a 17". I already knew from the superlift folks that a 5.5" backspace was the maximum I could have. Nobody seems to list backspace, but I found a conversion tool online that will translate the given offset in a given size, and tell you the backspace.

I knew the tire wanted a 6.5" to 8.5" width. I would have preferred to hit that right in the middle, but I wasn't finding exactly what I wanted and went with a cool looking rim that's 8.5" wide and about 5.3" backspace. I would have liked about 4.5" backspace, but again I got tired of searching and took the one that will work. I'm not crazy about having the widest rim this tire will fit, but everybody told me that's not a problem. It also has the added benefit that if I decide my next set of tires should be 12.5" wide, this rim will work for those as well.

I'm going with black bumpers (haven't found a rear bumper I like yet), black rock sliders, and I was going to go with black wheels but this seems like it should look a little better than all black. I'm not going for looks in this rig, but if I can make it look cool without sacrificing function, I would like that.

I went with aluminum instead of steel to keep the overall rig weight down, and the unsprung weight especially. I've had a lot of motorcycle experience, and sound engineering says that unsprung weight is the worst weight on the vehicle. I know steel is tougher, but I've never broken a rim before and I'm carrying a spare. If I regret it later, I'll buy steel wheels. For now, I went aluminum.

Here's the wheel I picked. I haven't had one mounted yet, but I did deliver a wheel and a tire to Accessory Outfitters so they can make sure this setup will work. An initial inspection with a tape measurer looked good to them. Once the lift parts are here (one part was missing) they will be able to check it out better, and they will run my stock wheels up to America's Tire to have all 5 mounted up. I'm told that once a tire is mounted to a new rim, the rim can't be returned unless it's defective.


07 WK 5.7 QD2, 4" lift, 33X10" tires, M8000s
ARB twin air,Dual AGM group 49, sliders and skids
azzkicker is offline  
post #20 of 87 Old 01-05-2017, 09:13 AM Thread Starter
azzkicker
Registered User
2007 WK 
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Beaverton
Posts: 629
On to the lift. Having picked the target tire size, superlift offers a 4" lift for this rig that says it will fit a 33" tire. My tire is 33.3" but it's narrower that they assumed (I'm sure they mean a 33X12.5 will fit). I don't think the extra 1/6" in radius is going to destroy the rig, but I'll do what I need to do to make it fit.

I didn't do much research to compare lifts, so I can't tell you much. I went with the first recommendation that Accessory Outfitters had, and I have general trust in the name Superlift. We'll see. This lift comes with everything, including a plug in module that will trick the computer into making the new geometry work with stability control and everything. It says it will also allow a different tire size to be calibrated for the speedometer. I'm assuming all that stuff will work. I really like rigs with stability control, so I don't want to give that up if I don't have to. I know how to countersteer, but it's pretty amazing to see my F150, and this jeep, react to a slippery left turn and make it all work. On the snow, I would have to be much more careful without it.

Accessory Outfitters charged me almost exactly what I could have paid online, and since I bought it from them, I don't have to deal with anything. They started to put it on, and while inventorying the parts (I never do that first, but I should) they found something missing. So, they finished the bumper and winch and set The Badger back down in the parking lot. I could have picked it back up, but I don't want it until it's ready for the trail.

07 WK 5.7 QD2, 4" lift, 33X10" tires, M8000s
ARB twin air,Dual AGM group 49, sliders and skids
azzkicker is offline  
post #21 of 87 Old 01-05-2017, 09:34 AM Thread Starter
azzkicker
Registered User
2007 WK 
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Beaverton
Posts: 629
I should have started with the shop I chose for buying accessories and having them installed. I chose Accessory Outfitters in Beaverton, Oregon. Patrick owns the place, and I deal a lot with Matt. Both are very helpful and very knowledgeable. You'll see in my story below why I'm a customer for life.

I started out years ago buying skid plates and mounting accessories on my first F150. At that time, I was paying alimony and child support, so I bought the front skid first, then the tranny, then the transfer case. I also bought a rollup tonneau cover. I don't recall the brands, but it was what they recommended. It all worked great, and I had them swap those parts from from first to my second F150 before I traded it in. I told the dealer what I was moving over, and they let me take both rigs over to Patrick, then bring back the thrashed one. It turns out that if you spend 6 figures with the same saleman, they treat you like a friend.

The reason I mention the back story, is that the third skid plate I bought, sat in the box for about 3 years because I didn't get around to putting it on (I was going to do it myself). When I brought the box back to Patrick 3 years, and 2 trucks later, he noticed the wrong skid plate was in the box. I didn't have a receipt, and I don't know of any return policy that spans 3 years, a ruined box, no receipt, and a different rig. However, all I got from Patrick was a call saying the right skid plate would take a few days to get here. No charge, no lecture, customer for life.

If you want to contact them, the phone number is 503-642-2600. If you live in the area, their shop is a block away from 185th and TV highway, tucked behind Ace hardware a few buildings back. The address is 18300 SW Alexander St, Beaverton, OR 97006.

Their prices seem to be about what Amazon charges (I have a prime membership, so if I had to pay shipping, amazon would be higher in most cases). They stand behind what they sell, and while they'll give you advice, they don't get huffy if you make a different decision. I like to listen to advice, hear the reasoning explained, then make my own choice. Some shops act like jerks if you don't do what they would do, this place doesn't.

07 WK 5.7 QD2, 4" lift, 33X10" tires, M8000s
ARB twin air,Dual AGM group 49, sliders and skids
azzkicker is offline  
post #22 of 87 Old 01-05-2017, 10:18 AM Thread Starter
azzkicker
Registered User
2007 WK 
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Beaverton
Posts: 629
Winch and front bumper: I did a lot of research and soul searching about winches. I've owned Warn, mile marker, and the harbor freight one. I would never rely solely on the winch, no matter which brand I chose, but this time around I wanted a very reliable one. I always have a quality comalong, a hi-lift, and full size shovel (usually two). For the record, I have the golden shovel with a metal handle that's mounted to my rig, then I have a ****ter shovel that's just tossed in the back for .... If the kids forget it leaning against a tree, I won't have a heart attack, but it's good for when you have help or an observer that's full of advice but doing nothing.

I'm going to put a winch on the back too, but I haven't figured that out yet. I've had rigs with both front and back, and the front always helped others, while the back got me out of whatever I buried my front winch into. Many times I've been stuck where a front winch was useless. I am going to start carrying 3 snatch blocks so I can try the reverse winch if the trees are cooperating.

Harbor freight had two returns within a month, then worked fine the few times I needed it before I sold that rig.

The mile marker had some kind of meltdown in the relay box after 5 or 6 uses. I couldn't promise I didn't overheat it, but I thought it was fine the last time I used it, then it melted down some time when I wasn't using it. I'm not sure, but I replaced the relay and box, then ended up selling the rig before it got used again.

The first Warn I had was an M8000 back in the early 80s. It was a workhorse, and I used it for pulling logs up hills, rescuing myself and others, and I even winched a loaded semi out of a snowy ditch once. I had to chain the jeep to a tree, and use a snatch block, but it was awesome to see that semi come out of the snow. Eventually that M8000 started leaking goo, but it had been through hell by then and it still worked when I sold the rig.

My next Warn was an M6000 that I won as a door prize. That one got installed on the back of a 3/4 ton suburban (I made a mount behind the license plate, and you unscrewed the plate to see the roller fairlead). It pulled the suburban out of many places, using a snatch block each time. Then I took it out after a few years and put it on the back of a 1 ton Dodge Cummins. That rig weighed about 8,000 pounds when I had it geared up for the woods, but I always used a snatch block so I had a 12K winch. It pulled that giant out of quite a few pinches, while the front Mile marker did the rescues for others.

The way I winch is to make tension until the winch is bogging down (but not stalled), then try gently crawling, or use a hi-lift and shovel to free it from whatever has it hung up. When I was young I used to just crank away like I see on youtube right before the line snaps or the winch breaks. I've gotten gentler with age, and I carry better accessories. I also don't keep going up something my rig obviously can't do. I look for obstacles I can just barely make, so usually I don't need to back up very far before I'm driving again. I understand the safari mentality of winching up whatever you can't make, but it's not my preference and where I go wheeling it isn't necessary. There's usually cut arounds, road crossings, and other trails to explore.

From what I researched, there were some options that might have been close to Warn reliability, and I know Warn winches can fail too, especially if you ignore the duty cycle or crank it to stall. It came down to a couple hundred bucks difference, so I went with what Patrick and I both thought, which is if you need the darn thing to work, get a Warn. I thought about the 9.5ti, but in the end I went with an M8000s, which has a synthetic line. Maybe it was nostalgia, but I thought the M8000 was right for me.

I'm curious about this synthetic line, but it seems like a sound engineering choice, and the two smartest wheelers I know both run them. I don't doubt there's drawbacks, but there are obvious advantages in handling and weight. I also would not get a cheap brand of the stuff. You're counting on somebody doing the chemical engineering to get the right plastics, and doing the quality control to build it right every time. I trust Warn, and I trust the big names, but I don't trust billy bob's chinese factory to save me a couple hundred bucks and turn out a reliable product.

I'll have to see what I think after using it a few times. I'm not thrilled about the fact that I'm supposed to pull it out and wash it after every use, or that UV rays will degrade it. However, I think I could ignore those issues if I just replace it in a few years. It doesn't seem to be in the sun with the ARB bumper, but it's going to get dirty.

I also want to look into how you repair a broken line. The idea sounds great, I just haven't seen what that looks like.

07 WK 5.7 QD2, 4" lift, 33X10" tires, M8000s
ARB twin air,Dual AGM group 49, sliders and skids
azzkicker is offline  
post #23 of 87 Old 01-05-2017, 10:39 AM Thread Starter
azzkicker
Registered User
2007 WK 
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Beaverton
Posts: 629
Winch mount front bumper: I went with an ARB bull bar winch mount bumper. It was obviously going to work, readily available, and I trust the ARB name. It's not as sexy as the Metal Pasja bumper, and I don't doubt there's better bumpers if you're willing to wait or deal with issues. I may still end up ordering the Metal Pasja bumpers. I found a place that says it will ship to the US. They would cost about $2500 each shipped, but that's with the rear having a tire carrier, winch mount, etc.

The place that will ship them said they have to be built first, after I pay. They said it would take a couple months, but their website said about 10 months in the warning when I put it in the shopping basket. I also worried that I would pay now, wait months and months, and get nothing. I don't know what recourse I would have with a European distributor buying from a Polish manufacturer. It's a little scary, but If you search for them online you'll see how awesome they look. There's a guy on this forum that got a set, but not the winch mount rear. He was having all kinds of fit issues, cutting frame members, said the bumper parts didn't even fit each other, much less the jeep.

I'll dig up the link to the place that sells Metal Pasja, if anybody asks for it. I also have an email address for a guy there that writes in English and seems responsive.

On to the ARB, which is installed already. I'll post some pictures of the mounting brackets and the finished product, which looks stupid on the stock tires. I'm sure it will look great when the jeep grows into it. Right now it's like a really skinny guy with a huge head; it just looks out of place.

The mounting hardware looks really good, and has inserts to go in the thin jeep structure. I'm a mechanical engineer, and mechanically inclined, and I think this mounting setup is plenty strong. I was worried the winch would pull the bumper off, but after seeing the parts going together, I'm not worried at all.

The finished bumper is huge. It could have been a little closer to the rig, and a little higher, if I designed it myself. I'm sure it's a design that fits multiple vehicles, or multiple options of the WK, with different mounting brackets. Other than the size and loss of approach angle, it looks pretty good. It's not sexy, but it should toss Bambi right into the ditch (or the windshield) without giving up the radiator or headlights. Also, if the prius in front of me needs a push, this thing should do it.

I would not like the look of this on a stock rig, but like I've said, it should look about right once the lift and 33" tires are on there.

Here's a stock rig (not mine, but looks like mine did) and the finished product. I'll post closeups of the mounting hardware next.







07 WK 5.7 QD2, 4" lift, 33X10" tires, M8000s
ARB twin air,Dual AGM group 49, sliders and skids
azzkicker is offline  
post #24 of 87 Old 01-05-2017, 11:12 AM Thread Starter
azzkicker
Registered User
2007 WK 
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Beaverton
Posts: 629
Here are some pictures of the mounting hardware, which I took when I stopped by part way through the project.

In this one, you can see the mounting bracket that goes behind the winch and bumper. All the black stuff is part of the ARB, not part of the stock rig.



Here is a closeup that's hard to make out, but you can see how sturdy the ARB stuff is. If you look close, you can see the threads of a mounting bolt, protruding through one of the heavy inserts they use inside the jeep tube to spread the load out. The silver stuff is jeep, the black stuff is ARB.


This is a shot from underneath. You can see they give you a very sturdy pull point under there, and if you look up and to the left, there's a funny set of bends in the bumper mount. I'm convinced that's to give you some crushing in an impact, and probably meets the 5mph no damage standard that I think stock bumpers are required to have. I'm confident that ARB did their engineering homework to make this sturdy, and as safe as possible given how tough it has to be. I'd rather need a new bumper than a new neck.



Here's a shot from above. There's a jeep cross member right behind that bracket. If I were designing the most elegant bumper I could, I would have to cut that out so the winch could back up closer to the radiator.



In this one, you can see a little better all the metal they've wrapped around the jeep "frame" to get a good grip on it. I like the mounting system.

07 WK 5.7 QD2, 4" lift, 33X10" tires, M8000s
ARB twin air,Dual AGM group 49, sliders and skids
azzkicker is offline  
post #25 of 87 Old 01-05-2017, 11:19 AM Thread Starter
azzkicker
Registered User
2007 WK 
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Beaverton
Posts: 629
My apologies. The first two pics in the last post must not have copied the link right. Photobucket keeps jumping to ads and reloading the page because I'm too cheap to pay. I'm not complaining, because in the words of the sometimes wise Butthead, "it was free, azzwipe".

Here was supposed to be the first one, showing the whole bracket in place. Hopefully this copied correctly now.



Here was supposed to be second one, commenting on the inserts:


07 WK 5.7 QD2, 4" lift, 33X10" tires, M8000s
ARB twin air,Dual AGM group 49, sliders and skids
azzkicker is offline  
post #26 of 87 Old 01-05-2017, 10:56 PM
derpboss
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: manchester
Posts: 453
Quote:
Originally Posted by azzkicker View Post
Very true sir. And this will not be my daily driver. I have a really nice F150 that I just love driving. In fact, this thing will be towed out to the woods behind that F150 or the motorhome. It won't get many miles, relatively speaking. It will get rough miles, but parts are made to be replaced. If it breaks out in the woods, I'll get it onto the trailer and fix it wherever I choose. Or let it sit a while if I'm not feeling up to it.
I still think you shoulda went with 35's and the modified superlift. Then just got the extended sway bar links to keep it stable.

Too late now though.
derpboss is offline  
post #27 of 87 Old 01-06-2017, 09:12 AM Thread Starter
azzkicker
Registered User
2007 WK 
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Beaverton
Posts: 629
Quote:
Originally Posted by derpboss View Post
I still think you shoulda went with 35's and the modified superlift. Then just got the extended sway bar links to keep it stable.

Too late now though.
It's never too late, but I doubt I'll be unhappy. It just changes which trails and which obstacles I try. It's personal preference, but I like rigs to drive as close to stock as possible, and still get a big enough tire under it. Other people want the biggest lift and biggest tires they can manage. Any time you lift a rig, it gets less stable, and the more you lift it the more pronounced the effect is. It comes down to what you plan to do with it, and what matters more to you.

If I get a chance to drive somebody's WK with 35s, I would definitely be interested to find out for myself.

07 WK 5.7 QD2, 4" lift, 33X10" tires, M8000s
ARB twin air,Dual AGM group 49, sliders and skids
azzkicker is offline  
post #28 of 87 Old 01-15-2017, 02:41 AM Thread Starter
azzkicker
Registered User
2007 WK 
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Beaverton
Posts: 629
I'm still missing a part from the superlift, which seems to be a common issue with them. I picked up the WK so I could drive it around during the snow storm we're having here (not much snow, but for this area it's a blizzard). Here's a picture of the tire and wheel sitting next to the rig. Until the lift gets here, that's as close as it will get.

I also picked up my ARB hand winch (called a Magnum Hand winch). It looks like a quality item, and I can't wait to try it out. I have the winch mounted on the front of the jeep, and I have 3 snatch blocks to theoretically winch backwards if there are trees in the right places, but I always carry a comealong in addition to a hi-lift to make sure I can get out of whatever I get into. I might post some stuff on the hand winch in a separate thread.



07 WK 5.7 QD2, 4" lift, 33X10" tires, M8000s
ARB twin air,Dual AGM group 49, sliders and skids
azzkicker is offline  
post #29 of 87 Old 01-16-2017, 07:14 AM
mille657
Registered User
1999 WJ 
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Ligonier
Posts: 11
Nice jeep man! Can't wait to see it lifted!

99 WJ 4.6l stroker, 4" RC, 31s, lockers
08 JK 2.5" RK, 35s
mille657 is offline  
post #30 of 87 Old 01-26-2017, 09:52 AM Thread Starter
azzkicker
Registered User
2007 WK 
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Beaverton
Posts: 629
The Badger is finally back in the shop for the lift! The parts finally showed up after the snow melted. There's apparently some cross member or something that needed notched for the driveline, and a plate needed to be created to get the strength back. The shop said that was an unusually tough thing to get a good plate made. Maybe some people are just notching it, but it sounded like this lift is more difficult than most.
Here are some progress pics of the lift, provided by Matt at Accessory Outfitters (did I mention these guys are awesome?) :









07 WK 5.7 QD2, 4" lift, 33X10" tires, M8000s
ARB twin air,Dual AGM group 49, sliders and skids
azzkicker is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the JeepForum.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid e-mail address for yourself.



Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome