Swapping Axles for QD II - Page 2 - JeepForum.com
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post #16 of 51 Old 11-28-2016, 10:27 AM
jimbono
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Originally Posted by beemer9 View Post
I upgraded my 2008 4.7L Commander from QTII to QDII several years ago. Look for my thread in the Jeep Commander forum. It's a full blown QDII conversion with the Jeep controlling the ELSD's just like from the factory. BUT you need to get Chrysler Engineering (NOT the dealer) to write a new PCM program for your vehicle. To do that, you need to go thru a friendly Jeep dealer.
Mechanically it required replacing the underbody wiring harness, the front ELSD diff wiring harness, TCM, front diff assy including I think the drivers side axle, and the rear axle assy. EVERYTHING else, xfer case, drive shafts, was the same.
Some people have installed a QDII front and rear axle and operated the ELSD solenoids with rocker switches but I don't know how well that works. The QDII TCM modulates the current and voltage to the ELSDs constantly during use. I don't know what effect applying a constant 12v would have.

That's awesome! Did the rear axle assembly 'bolt on', as in, was that a straightforward swap?

I'm wondering if the modulation of the current helps partially lock the axle. Also wondering if constant current would burn something out. I think being able to just turn it on and off would be awesome but would hate to wear something out because of that.

Also, will the brake controlled ESP still work with the QDII rear axle? It would be awesome to have the brake ESP still active while driving around and just use the lock when needed.


Last edited by jimbono; 11-28-2016 at 10:38 AM.
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post #17 of 51 Old 11-28-2016, 02:19 PM
Hendrix9
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Originally Posted by jimbono View Post
That's awesome! Did the rear axle assembly 'bolt on', as in, was that a straightforward swap?

I'm wondering if the modulation of the current helps partially lock the axle. Also wondering if constant current would burn something out. I think being able to just turn it on and off would be awesome but would hate to wear something out because of that.

Also, will the brake controlled ESP still work with the QDII rear axle? It would be awesome to have the brake ESP still active while driving around and just use the lock when needed.
It should totally just be a bolt in affair.


I also recall someone saying that if you leave it locked for too long it will burn out the solenoid that holds it locked. I contemplated using a timer and a momentary switch so that it only locks for 5 seconds or whatever and then unlocks to prevent you from burning it out. It's pretty unbroken ground though so you'd have to experiment. The solenoid isn't super expensive, by the way so burning it out isn't like a hundreds of dollars mistake. (the rear axle is alot easier to fix than the front one) Valpacer was the only guy I can remember who actually wired up his diffs to full manual. I bought the switches but never actually wired it up. Kind of lost interest since my rig is never going to be what I want it to be.

I think the brake controlled ESP may still work. That would be pretty freaking sweet. As long as you leave the factory computer of course. Beemer9 swapped the computer controlled parts too.

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post #18 of 51 Old 11-29-2016, 10:05 AM Thread Starter
sgossler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beemer9 View Post
I upgraded my 2008 4.7L Commander from QTII to QDII several years ago. Look for my thread in the Jeep Commander forum. It's a full blown QDII conversion with the Jeep controlling the ELSD's just like from the factory. BUT you need to get Chrysler Engineering (NOT the dealer) to write a new PCM program for your vehicle. To do that, you need to go thru a friendly Jeep dealer.
Mechanically it required replacing the underbody wiring harness, the front ELSD diff wiring harness, TCM, front diff assy including I think the drivers side axle, and the rear axle assy. EVERYTHING else, xfer case, drive shafts, was the same.
Some people have installed a QDII front and rear axle and operated the ELSD solenoids with rocker switches but I don't know how well that works. The QDII TCM modulates the current and voltage to the ELSDs constantly during use. I don't know what effect applying a constant 12v would have.
Thanks for replaying on my thread. I did read your thread, twice. I believe your thread got me going with this idea.... I want to thank you for it, as for the list and parts #s you used for your OEM conversion. Also Thanks for letting me know I do not need to change drive shafts, and that everything should bolt on... I will try and get the front axle shaft..

I have no intentions of doing it OEM. I find that I only need to lock the diffs in very particular places on washed out trails, or steep uneven inclines, Also, I doubt the dealers in my area would hep me with the programing.

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Last edited by sgossler; 11-29-2016 at 10:17 AM.
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post #19 of 51 Old 11-29-2016, 10:13 AM Thread Starter
sgossler
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Originally Posted by Hendrix9 View Post
It should totally just be a bolt in affair.


I also recall someone saying that if you leave it locked for too long it will burn out the solenoid that holds it locked. I contemplated using a timer and a momentary switch so that it only locks for 5 seconds or whatever and then unlocks to prevent you from burning it out. It's pretty unbroken ground though so you'd have to experiment. The solenoid isn't super expensive, by the way so burning it out isn't like a hundreds of dollars mistake. (the rear axle is alot easier to fix than the front one) Valpacer was the only guy I can remember who actually wired up his diffs to full manual. I bought the switches but never actually wired it up. Kind of lost interest since my rig is never going to be what I want it to be.

I think the brake controlled ESP may still work. That would be pretty freaking sweet. As long as you leave the factory computer of course. Beemer9 swapped the computer controlled parts too.
It is a shame there is not much info on how exactly the EATON diffs work. It would be great to know how much voltage equals how much lock... or maybe they are mechanical LSD, that will only fully lock when 12 volts are applied.

Either way... I find that in the trais I drive on, I only need to lock the difs on very specific parts... I do not intend to drive with them locked for more than a couple of minutes at a time. I read some place that they would burn up after aprox, 20 min of constant voltage...

The last trail I drove, the brake ESP made sure I got up the trail, however it hammered my brakes... I could smell the abuse... and thought that adding ELSD could help a lot.

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post #20 of 51 Old 11-29-2016, 11:46 AM
guygene
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgossler View Post
It is a shame there is not much info on how exactly the EATON diffs work. It would be great to know how much voltage equals how much lock... or maybe they are mechanical LSD, that will only fully lock when 12 volts are applied.

Either way... I find that in the trais I drive on, I only need to lock the difs on very specific parts... I do not intend to drive with them locked for more than a couple of minutes at a time. I read some place that they would burn up after aprox, 20 min of constant voltage...

The last trail I drove, the brake ESP made sure I got up the trail, however it hammered my brakes... I could smell the abuse... and thought that adding ELSD could help a lot.
Good explanation their website. It looks like a mechanical lock that uses the slipping wheel's force to lock the other wheel and keep it locked until the torque balances between them. I think...
http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsS...trac/index.htm
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post #21 of 51 Old 11-29-2016, 12:19 PM
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An even better explanation.
http://www.drivetrainshop.com/Detroi...at-912A553.htm
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post #22 of 51 Old 11-29-2016, 12:20 PM
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Great thread. My 2c - from my experience, a WK QTII with rear locker will do the same at the trail as a QDII, I have an OX locker installed, very happy.

Check $$$ wise which works best for you.
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post #23 of 51 Old 11-30-2016, 09:03 AM Thread Starter
sgossler
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Originally Posted by IlanLCD View Post
Great thread. My 2c - from my experience, a WK QTII with rear locker will do the same at the trail as a QDII, I have an OX locker installed, very happy.

Check $$$ wise which works best for you.
I also think, that the rear locker should be more than enough for what I do. If I can get both front and rear for cheap, that would be great!

Another problem is that the current exchange rate, makes things in US dollars, very expensive for me. The QDII difs are sourced locally. however the guy from the scrapyard has not given me a price yet... he has the WK right there!!

I will definitely weigh my options... EATON tru trac LSD, Spartan Locker, QDII ... and the new to me, OX locker Thanks for the introduction to this lockers, I did not know them, And they seem a better alternative to the ARB lockers.

2005 Jeep GC Limited 4.7 QTII
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post #24 of 51 Old 11-30-2016, 09:14 PM
Planetcat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgossler View Post
I also think, that the rear locker should be more than enough for what I do. If I can get both front and rear for cheap, that would be great!

Another problem is that the current exchange rate, makes things in US dollars, very expensive for me. The QDII difs are sourced locally. however the guy from the scrapyard has not given me a price yet... he has the WK right there!!

I will definitely weigh my options... EATON tru trac LSD, Spartan Locker, QDII ... and the new to me, OX locker Thanks for the introduction to this lockers, I did not know them, And they seem a better alternative to the ARB lockers.
I've had three tru tracs (wj, xj, yj), a spartan locker in my other XJ, and driven my buddys qdII wk off road. Of the three, the spartan is by far best off road. I liked mine very much in my dedicated xj trail rig. It locked up very tight, fast, and worked well. However, QDII in both front and rear axles, makes the wk very capable in low traction situations. I feel that QD diffs perform very similar to the tru trac, but with benefit of being in both axles. Tru tracs are fantastic, but they are expensive LSD's and dont lock both wheels like a locker. I would say both axles with QDII has advantage over the other two installed in only one axle. Spartan in two axles would be amazing. Tru tracs in both axles would be very similar to QDII. Lunch box lockers dont cost that much and are straightforward to install. Terrible on the pavement though and on icy roads. I also believe that they all have limits on tire size for them to work properly and not prematurely wear out or break. I'm putting a tru trac in my wk next week to have something better than open diffs. My .02.

2010 WK Laredo 5.7L, 2004 WJ 4.7L (totaled), 1959 CJ-5, 1996 XJ (sold), 1989 YJ Wrangler 4.2L (Sold)
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post #25 of 51 Old 12-01-2016, 09:12 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Planetcat View Post
I've had three tru tracs (wj, xj, yj), a spartan locker in my other XJ, and driven my buddys qdII wk off road. Of the three, the spartan is by far best off road. I liked mine very much in my dedicated xj trail rig. It locked up very tight, fast, and worked well. However, QDII in both front and rear axles, makes the wk very capable in low traction situations. I feel that QD diffs perform very similar to the tru trac, but with benefit of being in both axles. Tru tracs are fantastic, but they are expensive LSD's and dont lock both wheels like a locker. I would say both axles with QDII has advantage over the other two installed in only one axle. Spartan in two axles would be amazing. Tru tracs in both axles would be very similar to QDII. Lunch box lockers dont cost that much and are straightforward to install. Terrible on the pavement though and on icy roads. I also believe that they all have limits on tire size for them to work properly and not prematurely wear out or break. I'm putting a tru trac in my wk next week to have something better than open diffs. My .02.
Thanks for your input, and shearing your experience. I had mixed feelings on the spartan, as most roads leading to the trails have tight steep hair pins, that I feel would lock the spartan on pavment, as you have to give the WK a good amount of gas.

This is my spare vehicle... so I do drive it quite a bit on the road... i would say, may be 80% pavement 20%off road.

I guess, I am down to, QDII difs, or Rear LSD.. as I think the OX/ARB locker are way over my budget.

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post #26 of 51 Old 12-01-2016, 01:13 PM
Planetcat
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If the QDII lsd's are just vari-loks with an electric actuator, I'd go that route with a toggle. The vari-lok diffs are excellent limited slips, and with the added bonus of being able to "lock" the clutch packs at the press of a button, that would be the best of both worlds. I can't believe that the QDII limited slip diffs need to be engaged by the computer for simple lsd type traction needs, but I could see the computer sending locking info to the diff. I really don't know how these work. I don't know if they operate much different than my QDI diff in my WJ.

2010 WK Laredo 5.7L, 2004 WJ 4.7L (totaled), 1959 CJ-5, 1996 XJ (sold), 1989 YJ Wrangler 4.2L (Sold)
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post #27 of 51 Old 12-01-2016, 03:56 PM
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QDII works on oil pressure, when the computer detects wheel spin it sends electric signal via the wiring harness to the solenoid located inside the diff.
The solenoid directs the oil, building pressure, that engages the clutch inside the diff.

The lock is not constant and varies, based on the amount of the oil pressure built inside the diff.

There were attempts to bypass the computer, so the locks can be manually engaged, never saw someone that succeeded.

2008 WK, limited, QTII OX locker, 4.7 super chipped, free flow muffler, K&N filter, modified lift
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post #28 of 51 Old 12-01-2016, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IlanLCD
There were attempts to bypass the computer, so the locks can be manually engaged, never saw someone that succeeded.
Valpacer did it in his War Machine build thread. In the last couple pages i believe.

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post #29 of 51 Old 12-01-2016, 07:20 PM
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This video from Eaton appears to be the QDII diff. My understanding of the system is the when the solenoid valve is activated the bypass port for the oil pressure is closed and the oil is forced into the clutch pack actuation chamber. The geroter pump only turns, and therefore only makes oil pressure, when there is a speed differential between the two axles.

So two things have to happen before the diff will lock. First, you have to have some amount of wheel spin to produce oil pressure. Other videos I've seen seem to indicate about 1-2 wheel revolutions in a complete loss of opposite wheel traction will produce enough oil pressure. Second, the solenoid valve needs to be activated. I would assume this is some amount of voltage, possibly system voltage but it could be less.

The computer is likely using the ABS sensors to detect the wheel spin and then activate the solenoid valve. How long it keeps it activated is anybody's guess but it would seem that some combination of unified wheel speed over a period of time combined with an overall time limit would be logical.

https://youtu.be/FpiFq63N0Ac

I will try and make some time to connect my meter to one of the diff's and simulate some trail situations and see what I get. If the solenoid valve has a limit on activation time, one could easily put a time delay relay in place to protect it. Simply cycle the toggle switch to reset the relay if it times out.

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post #30 of 51 Old 12-01-2016, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IlanLCD View Post
QDII works on oil pressure, when the computer detects wheel spin it sends electric signal via the wiring harness to the solenoid located inside the diff.
The solenoid directs the oil, building pressure, that engages the clutch inside the diff.

The lock is not constant and varies, based on the amount of the oil pressure built inside the diff.

There were attempts to bypass the computer, so the locks can be manually engaged, never saw someone that succeeded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by board350 View Post
This video from Eaton appears to be the QDII diff. My understanding of the system is the when the solenoid valve is activated the bypass port for the oil pressure is closed and the oil is forced into the clutch pack actuation chamber. The geroter pump only turns, and therefore only makes oil pressure, when there is a speed differential between the two axles.

So two things have to happen before the diff will lock. First, you have to have some amount of wheel spin to produce oil pressure. Other videos I've seen seem to indicate about 1-2 wheel revolutions in a complete loss of opposite wheel traction will produce enough oil pressure. Second, the solenoid valve needs to be activated. I would assume this is some amount of voltage, possibly system voltage but it could be less.

The computer is likely using the ABS sensors to detect the wheel spin and then activate the solenoid valve. How long it keeps it activated is anybody's guess but it would seem that some combination of unified wheel speed over a period of time combined with an overall time limit would be logical.

https://youtu.be/FpiFq63N0Ac

I will try and make some time to connect my meter to one of the diff's and simulate some trail situations and see what I get. If the solenoid valve has a limit on activation time, one could easily put a time delay relay in place to protect it. Simply cycle the toggle switch to reset the relay if it times out.

Sent from my XT1096 using Tapatalk
This is turning into a very informative thread. Sound like the QDII diffs are very different from the QDI vari-lok mechanical diffs. All this new LSD technology is going to make my detroit tru-trac look like a dinosaur. Still love the tru-trac though.

2010 WK Laredo 5.7L, 2004 WJ 4.7L (totaled), 1959 CJ-5, 1996 XJ (sold), 1989 YJ Wrangler 4.2L (Sold)
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