Smokey the 2005 WK 4.7L (Re) Build - Page 7 - JeepForum.com

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post #91 of 236 Old 11-16-2016, 02:30 PM
cranbiz
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I'm getting one from a rebuilder in S. Florida that specializes in only Chrysler 3.7L and 4.7L rebuilds. 3 year, 36K warranty. They have great pricing, reviews and they supplied me with a multitude of customer references and encouraged me to call them. I feel good about it.


06 KJ
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post #92 of 236 Old 11-21-2016, 07:39 PM Thread Starter
nathanjaybar
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Almost 3 weeks later and there's some news.... kind of.

I called Jeep to check in on Smokey and, well, they can't figure it out. They updated the PCM with the newest software which initially cleared the codes but they came right back on the road test. They said the next step was to do a tear-down and start visually inspecting all the timing components, starting with both of the cam alignments again. He suggested I compare the factory sprockets to the aftermarket ones I purchased to verify they are the same size and have the same number of teeth. He knows I did all the work myself, so they did not do anything further. I can go in and inspect myself rather than pay them thousands to do it.

One thing I am going to try is taking the cam and crank position sensors off my '06 and putting them on Smokey to see if that's the problem. I know both of those sensors are working properly so that's one way to eliminate that variable.

Outside of that I'll just pull both valve covers this time and (now) triple check the cam sprockets are synced up properly. If they are, which I think they are, I'll just have to start tearing down again and break in to the timing chain cover. Redo the timing and put it all back together again.

'06 WK 4.7L V8 4WD | Recently purchased '05 WK 4.7L V8 4WD
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post #93 of 236 Old 11-22-2016, 11:12 AM
DaveBx
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Garage
crap ... that sucks. When I did mine, even though I secured
the timing chains ( I thought ) the L side slipped about 4 teeth
worth. I took off tensioners, moved it just by eyeball about 4
teeth, put back together - (eventually) purrs like new. Still no
codes after 400+ miles. FWIW, the cam sprockets never perfectly
lined up at 12:00 like the FSM shows; off maybe 2 on one side.

Dave in Denver
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post #94 of 236 Old 11-22-2016, 12:08 PM
cranbiz
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Just got back from an epic road trip to Hialeah, FL to pick up the long block. 13 hours down, 12 hours back, left Sunday night at 2000, getting back this morning at 0030.

Have a good feeling after seeing and talking to them and on how they completely went over the two blocks, making sure I had everything I needed was on the replacement block. They also provided me with a Muzimo full gasket set. They also quickly tore the heads off the old block down to determine if I could reuse the intake.

The transformation starts early Friday morning.

06 KJ
12 JK,2.5" Teraflex lift,Bilstein 5100's,BFG KO2's P305/65R17
17 WK2 Trailhawk
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post #95 of 236 Old 11-22-2016, 12:48 PM Thread Starter
nathanjaybar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveBx View Post
crap ... that sucks. When I did mine, even though I secured
the timing chains ( I thought ) the L side slipped about 4 teeth
worth. I took off tensioners, moved it just by eyeball about 4
teeth, put back together - (eventually) purrs like new. Still no
codes after 400+ miles. FWIW, the cam sprockets never perfectly
lined up at 12:00 like the FSM shows; off maybe 2 on one side.
I've pulled off the drivers side valve cover weeks ago before I took it to Jeep and it was spot on, I'm going to do the passenger side hopefully this weekend and see how it looks in there. She idles SO smooth, it's hard to believe timing is off at all. I talked to the service guy at Jeep this morning when I went to pick it up and he said it might be an intermittent electrical problem, so I'll go through and check all the connectors to see if anything stands out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cranbiz View Post
Just got back from an epic road trip to Hialeah, FL to pick up the long block. 13 hours down, 12 hours back, left Sunday night at 2000, getting back this morning at 0030.

Have a good feeling after seeing and talking to them and on how they completely went over the two blocks, making sure I had everything I needed was on the replacement block. They also provided me with a Muzimo full gasket set. They also quickly tore the heads off the old block down to determine if I could reuse the intake.

The transformation starts early Friday morning.
NICE! Good luck, take some pictures I'd love to see the progress as I'm sure other guys on here would too. With all the trouble Smokey is giving me I feel like I just want to swap the engine out at this point, but it's too late for that.

'06 WK 4.7L V8 4WD | Recently purchased '05 WK 4.7L V8 4WD
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post #96 of 236 Old 11-22-2016, 01:08 PM
cranbiz
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I hope you figure it out. Your thread was the inspiration for me to even attempt to fix this one (well that and trying to do the right thing for my daughter in law).

I bought new crank and cam sensors but also kept the old ones that were working.

Got to give the intake a good bath as the rebuilder saw no evidence that there will be an issue reusing it after the quickie teardown of the old motor.

I'll get pics before we start and along the way. Right now I'm not even sure I can find the right side of the camera. Old men like me are just not built to stay up 36 hours straight anymore.

06 KJ
12 JK,2.5" Teraflex lift,Bilstein 5100's,BFG KO2's P305/65R17
17 WK2 Trailhawk
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post #97 of 236 Old 11-22-2016, 01:28 PM Thread Starter
nathanjaybar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cranbiz View Post
I hope you figure it out. Your thread was the inspiration for me to even attempt to fix this one (well that and trying to do the right thing for my daughter in law).

I bought new crank and cam sensors but also kept the old ones that were working.

Got to give the intake a good bath as the rebuilder saw no evidence that there will be an issue reusing it after the quickie teardown of the old motor.

I'll get pics before we start and along the way. Right now I'm not even sure I can find the right side of the camera. Old men like me are just not built to stay up 36 hours straight anymore.
Glad the thread helped or inspired you a little bit, that's why I decided to do it. Take it slow, no need to rush or you make stupid mistakes like I did.

I have my original cam/cranks sensors, plus the ones from my '06 so I'm going to try all combinations of those all and see if anything changes. The desire to work on the Jeep is making it very difficult to work today...

'06 WK 4.7L V8 4WD | Recently purchased '05 WK 4.7L V8 4WD
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post #98 of 236 Old 11-22-2016, 03:07 PM
RCS1300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanjaybar View Post
He suggested I compare the factory sprockets to the aftermarket ones I purchased to verify they are the same size and have the same number of teeth.
Yes. That would be my first thought too. Did not realize you put aftermarket in the engine.
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post #99 of 236 Old 11-22-2016, 03:42 PM
Hendrix9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanjaybar View Post
They said the next step was to do a tear-down and start visually inspecting all the timing components, starting with both of the cam alignments again. He suggested I compare the factory sprockets to the aftermarket ones I purchased to verify they are the same size and have the same number of teeth. He knows I did all the work myself, so they did not do anything further. I can go in and inspect myself rather than pay them thousands to do it.

One thing I am going to try is taking the cam and crank position sensors off my '06 and putting them on Smokey to see if that's the problem. I know both of those sensors are working properly so that's one way to eliminate that variable.

Outside of that I'll just pull both valve covers this time and (now) triple check the cam sprockets are synced up properly. If they are, which I think they are, I'll just have to start tearing down again and break in to the timing chain cover. Redo the timing and put it all back together again.
I can guarantee the cam sprockets have the same number of teeth. I bought my kit based on your part numbers and luckily compared them to my stock ones because I have an '04 so the cam sensor windows are different (jtec vs ngk I think?), but the teeth were the same. I reused my factory passenger side one and the driverside, idler, and crank sprockets from the kit. I don't think I held up the idler one to my stock one though.

Since it idles so good I think it has to be a sensor issue for you. Fingers crossed swapping those will give you some luck.

If it makes you feel better my repair didn't go smoothly either. I fired it up for on Sunday and I think I still have a headgasket leak... quite a bit of white smoke out the exhaust. Have to button up some suspension items and going to road test it to get it full hot before I decide how to proceed from here. Hoping if it is still a headgasket I only have to do one side, and I'll try doing it without pulling the timing cover this time. (saw a thread where I guy did that on his dakota)

2007 CRD QDII
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post #100 of 236 Old 11-22-2016, 09:09 PM Thread Starter
nathanjaybar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCS1300 View Post
Yes. That would be my first thought too. Did not realize you put aftermarket in the engine.
I used Mopar on parts that weren't excessively more expensive than high quality aftermarket parts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendrix9 View Post
I can guarantee the cam sprockets have the same number of teeth. I bought my kit based on your part numbers and luckily compared them to my stock ones because I have an '04 so the cam sensor windows are different (jtec vs ngk I think?), but the teeth were the same. I reused my factory passenger side one and the driverside, idler, and crank sprockets from the kit. I don't think I held up the idler one to my stock one though.

Since it idles so good I think it has to be a sensor issue for you. Fingers crossed swapping those will give you some luck.

If it makes you feel better my repair didn't go smoothly either. I fired it up for on Sunday and I think I still have a headgasket leak... quite a bit of white smoke out the exhaust. Have to button up some suspension items and going to road test it to get it full hot before I decide how to proceed from here. Hoping if it is still a headgasket I only have to do one side, and I'll try doing it without pulling the timing cover this time. (saw a thread where I guy did that on his dakota)

I went back in to the hundreds of photos I have of the install and the teeth count match up perfectly on all sprockets through the whole build.

BUT..... I think I just figured out what's going on. I just went and grabbed my original passenger side cam sprocket and compared it to the photos of my build. They're completely different. The cam sensor windows on the sprocket look nothing like the replacement one I installed. @Hendrix9 , I swear, if this is what's causing my issue I need to find a way to buy you a beer or something.

I took Smokey on a ~40 mile drive today. All-in-all she did great. I was nervous pulling on to the freeway and kept in the far right the entire drive in case I needed to pull over. As long as I keep it below 2,300rpm the engine doesn't buck and it's smooth sailing. Ran like a champ. I checked codes when I got home and P0325 came in to the mix - Knock Sensor #1 - Circuit Malfunction (Single Sensor or Bank 1). I knew this was going to come back and bite me in the ***, but when I pulled the intake manifold off I noticed the wires were melted to the block, but I figured since that wasn't an issue I passed on the repair. The parts are only ~$80 but you have to pull the entire intake manifold off to access them. So, while I'm replacing the cam sprocket, I'll pull the manifold and replace the knock sensors too.

I just figured out what I'm doing with my Thanksgiving weekend....

'06 WK 4.7L V8 4WD | Recently purchased '05 WK 4.7L V8 4WD
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post #101 of 236 Old 11-23-2016, 07:55 AM
Hendrix9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanjaybar View Post

BUT..... I think I just figured out what's going on. I just went and grabbed my original passenger side cam sprocket and compared it to the photos of my build. They're completely different. The cam sensor windows on the sprocket look nothing like the replacement one I installed. @Hendrix9 , I swear, if this is what's causing my issue I need to find a way to buy you a beer or something.

I just figured out what I'm doing with my Thanksgiving weekend....
The whole JTEC vs NGC thing is confusing as hell. There's no standard for what year the switched and it also varies by model. 2005 should be NGC like you bought, but yours sounds like it might be a JTEC. (according to airram http://www.airram.com/product.php?ca...productid=1338) Thanks, Chrysler.

I hope that's the issue and lucky you kept all the old sprockets! Shouldn't be too hard to swap that out using a wood wedge (or I think you might have said you were buying the actual tool) to keep the tensioners from releasing on you. Fingers crossed.

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post #102 of 236 Old 11-28-2016, 12:43 PM
cranbiz
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So it was a marathon weekend starting Friday morning, ending Sat night with trailering the GC back to my house to figure out why the injectors were leaking like a sieve. Sunday was me figuring out why the injectors were leaking and replacing lost bolts in certain areas and reinstalling the grill. Note here, NTK O2 sensors for the 2005 4.7L are NOT correct, they have the wrong connector on them, which will work in a 2006 Liberty. Ended up with Denso because they were in stock at the closest auto parts store.

Don't lose the clips that secure the injectors to the rails, they apparently are made of unobtanium. We dropped one into the intake valley and I'm not pulling the intake a 3rd time. So called the 6 Jeep dealers in the area and all the auto parts stores. No one had any, there wasn't one in the entire state of NC thru Jeep. Found them on Rock Auto, hopefully this $2.40 part will be here this week. We did try to fire it up and it wanted to go but with the injector leaks, didn't have enough fuel pressure. With all going on and trying to find parts on the fly, I didn't get many pictures but got a couple.

I will personally castrate the engineers who couldn't add 6" of wire to both upstream O2 sensors on the vehicle wiring harness. They should be made to service the systems after design. Needed to drop the Y Pipe to get the passengers side installed, the drivers side was just as bad. We also got ahead of ourselves several times and ended up dropping the transmission mount bracket about 4 times before done. Thank god for a friend with shop air, a rotary lift, engine hoist and transmission jack and a pole barn with it all in it.

On some aftermarket injectors, there are multiple slots for the retaining clips. Use the bottom slot for the 4.7L fuel rail. If you don't, they don't seal which was my problem.

Leaving the fan off at this point so we can check for leaks after the initial startup.


So here is the engine on the hoist reassembled with the transmission on it, ready to install:


And it resting back where it belongs:


Waiting for the fuel rail clip:


Back in, missing fuel rail but ready to go:


Front end back on:


The right O2 Sensor connector:


The wrong O2 sensor connector:

06 KJ
12 JK,2.5" Teraflex lift,Bilstein 5100's,BFG KO2's P305/65R17
17 WK2 Trailhawk
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post #103 of 236 Old 11-29-2016, 11:42 AM Thread Starter
nathanjaybar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cranbiz View Post
So it was a marathon weekend starting Friday morning, ending Sat night with trailering the GC back to my house to figure out why the injectors were leaking like a sieve. Sunday was me figuring out why the injectors were leaking and replacing lost bolts in certain areas and reinstalling the grill. Note here, NTK O2 sensors for the 2005 4.7L are NOT correct, they have the wrong connector on them, which will work in a 2006 Liberty. Ended up with Denso because they were in stock at the closest auto parts store.

Don't lose the clips that secure the injectors to the rails, they apparently are made of unobtanium. We dropped one into the intake valley and I'm not pulling the intake a 3rd time. So called the 6 Jeep dealers in the area and all the auto parts stores. No one had any, there wasn't one in the entire state of NC thru Jeep. Found them on Rock Auto, hopefully this $2.40 part will be here this week. We did try to fire it up and it wanted to go but with the injector leaks, didn't have enough fuel pressure. With all going on and trying to find parts on the fly, I didn't get many pictures but got a couple.

I will personally castrate the engineers who couldn't add 6" of wire to both upstream O2 sensors on the vehicle wiring harness. They should be made to service the systems after design. Needed to drop the Y Pipe to get the passengers side installed, the drivers side was just as bad. We also got ahead of ourselves several times and ended up dropping the transmission mount bracket about 4 times before done. Thank god for a friend with shop air, a rotary lift, engine hoist and transmission jack and a pole barn with it all in it.

On some aftermarket injectors, there are multiple slots for the retaining clips. Use the bottom slot for the 4.7L fuel rail. If you don't, they don't seal which was my problem.

Leaving the fan off at this point so we can check for leaks after the initial startup.
Looking good, man. I feel you on the O2 sensors. I swapped out all 4 on my '06 when I bought it and I think it took almost 5 hours, 2+ of which were trying to get my gorilla hands up in there for the single plug on the passenger side. I thought I was going crazy or doing something wrong, but no, it's just that difficult.

Love the pictures, thanks for sharing. I worked a portion of the weekend on the Jeep too, I'm just getting ready to finally post an update now with some new pics.

'06 WK 4.7L V8 4WD | Recently purchased '05 WK 4.7L V8 4WD
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post #104 of 236 Old 11-29-2016, 12:12 PM
cranbiz
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You get the cam sprocket replaced? Make a difference? I carefully inspected the knock sensors before reinstalling them thanks to your problem. So at least you saved someone from having the same problem. I need to buy you a beer.

I feel you on the intake. After installing it and removing it twice, when we dropped the injector retainer in the valley, I gave up and decided pulling the intake a 3rd time was playing with fire and decided to be patient and wait for new retainers.

06 KJ
12 JK,2.5" Teraflex lift,Bilstein 5100's,BFG KO2's P305/65R17
17 WK2 Trailhawk
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post #105 of 236 Old 11-29-2016, 12:13 PM Thread Starter
nathanjaybar
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After 3+ weeks at the dealer, they couldn't figure out why I was getting the camshaft and crankshaft position sensor codes so they returned Smokey with a shoulder shrug and a "sorry". @Hendrix9 made a passing comment about using his original camshaft sprocket because the supplied one in his kit didn't match up. I looked back and sure enough, mine was different too. So I dove in, and swapped out the sprocket last weekend....

It's fixed.

Smokey fired RIGHT up and runs as smooth as butter. She still has a lot of work left to be done but I've been driving her for a couple days without issues... well, at least not any issues associated with the cam/crank sensors. BIG thanks to Hendrix9 for helping me diagnose the issue. I was banging my head against the wall for over a month trying to figure it out. What a stupid mistake to make.

Here are some pics of the work done over the weekend:


Here is the new sprocket as it rested when I took the cover off. The next 2 are the sprocket aligned for removal and the harmonic balancer set at TDC.

img_8277.jpg

img_8284.jpg

img_8283.jpg


Here's the tool I ordered for the sprocket removal. There were previous comments about using a piece of wood or something similar, but for $20 I just ordered one.

img_8286.jpg


Here's the original sprocket, front and back, before and after a little scrubbing.

img_8296.jpg

img_8297.jpg

img_8298.jpg

img_8299.jpg


I marked two links as reference for when the old sprocket went back in.

img_8304.jpg


Here is the wedge in place, ready for removal.

img_8305.jpg

'06 WK 4.7L V8 4WD | Recently purchased '05 WK 4.7L V8 4WD
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