Smokey the 2005 WK 4.7L (Re) Build - Page 6 - JeepForum.com

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post #76 of 236 Old 10-10-2016, 10:41 AM Thread Starter
nathanjaybar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by takman View Post
I dont know much about this engine...but it's an interference engine right? On a lot of vehicles, being off a tooth would cause cause the valve to hit the piston. But you would know that when you cranked it over by hand before starting. At best, being off a tooth would cause hard starting, and rough idling/running.

If it's running smooth, and ticking, I'd saying its just the lifter....but i could be wrong. Just some thoughts.
Yeah, I actually thought about that too. The engine runs extremely smooth, especially for being one tooth off. I would consider leaving it as is, however I don't think those trouble codes would ever go away unless I fix the problem. I've cleared them several times and they come right back as soon as the engine fires up.

I read somewhere in my research (didn't save the link, of course) that one tooth off will lead to rough/poor performance and 2+ teeth off will lead to engine failure. I don't know if there's any validity in that statement but I thought I'd throw it out there.


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post #77 of 236 Old 10-18-2016, 10:43 AM
Hendrix9
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Oh man. That sucks! So you had the crank to idler gear chain right the first time and then when you went back to double check it you flipped the chain upside down? Have you gotten a chance to try and fix it yet? Did you already put radiator all back in and stuff? It might be worth it to just grin and bear it and pull the timing cover again if you don't.

Would you mind double checking these head torque specs for me against what you used? This from the PDF manual I have.

I'm hoping to get the heads back on and the timing done this weekend on mine. My wife is heading back to her hometown and taking the baby with her so I'll be able to get some undistracted work in for a change. I do have a bunch of pictures and I've been meaning to start a thread in the WJ section when I get some time to document it.
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post #78 of 236 Old 10-18-2016, 12:05 PM
4xTroy
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Nathan! It's been a week man, any progress?

Jeep Owner for 17 years; Jeep Guy for 4!
'02 Laredo 4.7L / OME HD & Billies / 255/70R17 GG AT2

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post #79 of 236 Old 10-18-2016, 12:15 PM
caulk04
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That 'tool' can be made easily. Commonly used back in the day when 4.7 cam swaps were prevalent. It can be done with a simple piece of 1-by wood. Just make a door stop of sorts that holds the chain tight against the guides.

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post #80 of 236 Old 10-19-2016, 11:21 AM Thread Starter
nathanjaybar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendrix9 View Post
Oh man. That sucks! So you had the crank to idler gear chain right the first time and then when you went back to double check it you flipped the chain upside down? Have you gotten a chance to try and fix it yet? Did you already put radiator all back in and stuff? It might be worth it to just grin and bear it and pull the timing cover again if you don't.

Would you mind double checking these head torque specs for me against what you used? This from the PDF manual I have.
Yep, that's exactly what happened. I wasn't paying close enough attention and had the chain flipped on the re-install. I'm thankful it's only off by 1 tooth though. Timing chain cover, radiator, fan, coolant... all in already so my only option is to adjust the cam sprokets.

Those torque specs are exactly what I followed on my install.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4xTroy View Post
Nathan! It's been a week man, any progress?
Hoping this weekend I'll be able to get the rest of the rebuild completed! I'll take pics and post when it's done. I still have to finish the top axle bushing, which has proven to be quite a bit more difficult than I had hoped.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caulk04 View Post
That 'tool' can be made easily. Commonly used back in the day when 4.7 cam swaps were prevalent. It can be done with a simple piece of 1-by wood. Just make a door stop of sorts that holds the chain tight against the guides.
I figured I could just find something and wedge it down there to achieve the same thing as the tool, but at $20 I figured I'd take the dive and get it. Last thing I want is something falling down in where I can't reach it, or accidentally allowing the secondary tensioners to extend and having to tear it all apart again.

'06 WK 4.7L V8 4WD | Recently purchased '05 WK 4.7L V8 4WD
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post #81 of 236 Old 10-24-2016, 12:01 PM Thread Starter
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Well, I got a good amount of work done this weekend but I can't say I'm anywhere closer to figuring out what's going on.

After getting the P0344 and P0016 codes, and discovering I installed the main chain upside down I pulled the valve covers to check if I had hopped a tooth or set the timing wrong. The timing was perfect, everything aligned in the 12/6 or 9/3 position - I was working with a buddy and even he felt it couldn't be more spot on. Also, we examined the old main timing chain and realized that the chain being upside down has no effect on the timing. There are an even number of links where regardless of positioning (upright or 180 degrees) the chain will still run true and timing will be ok.

So, after all that I put it back together. It started right up on the first try and idled nice and smooth. I've read the codes could be an electrical issue with a bad ground, and my airbag light is on. Apparently this has been linked to the plugs under the seats so I unplugged all connectors under both seats and started it back up.

No luck.

Airbag light is still on and I'm throwing the same code - started with only P0344 then P0016 popped up shortly after. I've cleaned all connectors and checked for fraying on both sides of the wire harness and they all look good.

The battery is pumping a solid 12.6v and while running I'm up at 14.2v so both battery and alternator are good and functioning. I did not replace the starter, I don't want to just throw parts at this and cross my fingers.

I gently drove it to the gas station to fill up the tires with air and allow some more oil to circulate through the engine, hoping this would alleviate or reduce the knocking sound I'm still experiencing. No luck, codes and knocking are still there even after some driving.

Cam and crankshaft sensors are new - Duralast brand. I'm wondering if I should take them back and get Mopar?

I believe the fuel pump is out, I'm going to replace that as soon as I can go through some of the gas in the tank, currently about 3/4 full.

I'm open to suggestions for solutions on either issue, knocking or codes.

In the meantime, here are some pictures from the weekend and a video of the Jeep running after first startup.

A couple fun finds from the weekend:

- I found a container of weed and a bullet shell under the drivers seat
- All-in-all I've pulled about $10+ of change out from under both seats


Here's the video of the first run after getting it back together... again:

https://youtu.be/werrCSGtIIk


Just to confirm, the harmonic balancer was at TDC when I verified timing on both cam sprockets. This looks pretty dead-on to me.

img_8166.jpg


Here are some before and after pics of under the seats. It blows my mind that people treat their vehicles this way. On the upside, I used about $5 of the change I found under the seat to drive to a car wash and pressure wash the exterior once I got it running again.

img_8175.jpg
img_8177.jpg
img_8178.jpg
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post #82 of 236 Old 10-24-2016, 06:17 PM
4xTroy
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I've never had to change any sensors (other than doing my O2 units while I had the Y-pipe out), but from everything I've read on here, you want Mopar and/or OEM sensors. I went with Denso on the O2 sensors since they are the OEM and much cheaper than Mopar. 1500+ miles and no issues with them (as opposed to the old sensors that would throw codes every few days).

I'd try your original sensors first, then replace with Mopar.

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post #83 of 236 Old 10-25-2016, 09:16 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4xTroy View Post
I've never had to change any sensors (other than doing my O2 units while I had the Y-pipe out), but from everything I've read on here, you want Mopar and/or OEM sensors. I went with Denso on the O2 sensors since they are the OEM and much cheaper than Mopar. 1500+ miles and no issues with them (as opposed to the old sensors that would throw codes every few days).

I'd try your original sensors first, then replace with Mopar.
My original sensors were pretty beat up and discolored. It seems like the camshaft position sensor (P0344) pops up first, then followed by the crankshaft code (P0016). I ordered a new Mopar camshaft sensor, I'll throw that on and see what happens.

Also, took it on a drive last night and the Jeep bucked around 3K RPM on acceleration. I have a feeling this might have to do with the fuel pump so chances are I'll be replacing that sooner than expected.

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post #84 of 236 Old 10-25-2016, 11:01 PM Thread Starter
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Went for another drive tonight. Turns out the "bucking" is actually the transmission shifting, I don't believe it has anything to do with the engine. I don't know what that means, but I plan to drain and fill (not flush) the trans eventually, so we'll see if that does anything.

I got the airbag light to shut off, one of the wires under the drivers seat was frayed and shorting against the seat frame. That's a relief, I thought I'd have to replace the clock spring, which isn't cheap.

I rented a fuel pressure gauge to see if my starting issues were coming from there, but turns out it's all good. In the accessory position I'm holding a steady ~56psi. At idle I'm at roughly 60psi and it holds there indefinitely after shutting off - I left it for about 20 min and it held there. So while that's a good thing to know and one less project on this Jeep I need to tend to, I still don't know what's causing my starting issues. The only way it will start is if I depress the gas pedal slightly and feather it a bit while it's cranking over. Otherwise it will not start. The battery is brand new, as of yesterday. Plugs are new OE and gapped, throttle body cleaned along with IAC valve. I swapped the A/C relay with the fuel pump to see if that would have any effect but it was the same. On the first start, it will crank and crank, then it 'catches' and fires up - a good plume of smoke comes out the tailpipe. I'm assuming that's the fuel being dumped in to the engine before it's running?

I'm going to post this in a new thread as I'm sure not everyone will see this and perhaps I can get some new eyes on this issue. (Yes, I've searched with no luck.)

'06 WK 4.7L V8 4WD | Recently purchased '05 WK 4.7L V8 4WD
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post #85 of 236 Old 10-28-2016, 04:00 PM Thread Starter
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Just a quick update:

After replacing the throttle position sensor, idle air control valve, and cam + crank sensors with no luck, I'm caving and taking the jeep to the dealer. The Jeep still won't start without a struggle and I can't clear the codes. I'm done throwing money at it in guesses. I'm going to drop it off and see what they come back with. Don't know how long it will take but I'll be sure to post when I get any news.

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post #86 of 236 Old 11-03-2016, 10:16 AM
cranbiz
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I'm in the same situation as you except there is a ding in the #2 piston where the valve looked like it struck the piston and the seat is in the cylinder. I haven't pulled the head yet, just inspected the piston with a inspection camera. It is pretty crappy in there but I don't think there is significant damage to the cylinder wall. My question is Do I just pull the heads, try to gently buff out the ding and replace the heads, timing chains, tensioners, water pump, t stat, gaskets, etc and hope for the best or shell out $1800 for a reman long block?

I would still replace the water pump, etc and I'm considering the injectors as well. It's my daughter in laws GC and we just had our first grandchild which is why I'm doing this for her. I want to make sure this is reliable but she is not loaded and every penny counts.

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post #87 of 236 Old 11-04-2016, 10:32 AM Thread Starter
nathanjaybar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cranbiz View Post
I'm in the same situation as you except there is a ding in the #2 piston where the valve looked like it struck the piston and the seat is in the cylinder. I haven't pulled the head yet, just inspected the piston with a inspection camera. It is pretty crappy in there but I don't think there is significant damage to the cylinder wall. My question is Do I just pull the heads, try to gently buff out the ding and replace the heads, timing chains, tensioners, water pump, t stat, gaskets, etc and hope for the best or shell out $1800 for a reman long block?

I would still replace the water pump, etc and I'm considering the injectors as well. It's my daughter in laws GC and we just had our first grandchild which is why I'm doing this for her. I want to make sure this is reliable but she is not loaded and every penny counts.
From what I've read on the forum, as long as the ding on the piston is not that bad and the actual cylinder wall is not damaged, you should be ok just swapping out the heads. I believe the ding will potentially accumulate a carbon buildup faster than other areas on the piston but I don't believe it will have an adverse effect on engine performance.

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post #88 of 236 Old 11-04-2016, 10:51 AM
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Thanks. I'll know Sunday when we dig into it further.

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post #89 of 236 Old 11-15-2016, 10:55 AM
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So, we looked this over and with a hi def inspection camera found the ding was substantial and there was evidence of scoring on the cylinder walls from the remnants of the valve seat.

We decided to go the long block route.

Here is where we are at now.





Heading to Florida Sunday night to pick up the remanufactured long block.

06 KJ
12 JK,2.5" Teraflex lift,Bilstein 5100's,BFG KO2's P305/65R17
17 WK2 Trailhawk
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post #90 of 236 Old 11-16-2016, 10:49 AM Thread Starter
nathanjaybar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cranbiz View Post
So, we looked this over and with a hi def inspection camera found the ding was substantial and there was evidence of scoring on the cylinder walls from the remnants of the valve seat.

We decided to go the long block route.

Heading to Florida Sunday night to pick up the remanufactured long block.
Right on, looking good. Are you getting a Jasper or other?

No news on Smokey yet. Jeep has had her for 2 1/2 weeks without a peep. I'm ok with them taking their time, I'm just more curious what's going on with it.

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