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Unread 05-26-2013, 07:44 PM   #1
90grandoneer
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Ported Throttle Bodies, a waste of Money?

Thought I'd post up my initial impressions of a "ported" throttle body, FWIW:

I just installed a true 85m BBK throttle body (TB) on my somewhat modded 06, 5.7 (see my signature) and, so far, I am less than impressed. This TB is 85mm all the way through, unlike the Arrington/Modern Muscle, which is 83mm at the inlet, 80mm at the butterfly, 85mm after the butterfly, and 83mm again at the intake manifold. Some other "ported" TB's utilize the stock TB that is "ported', but remains the stock 80mm, unless the throttle shaft and butterfly has been replaced with larger components.

I am aware that the stock throttle body is more than adequate for a stock, or even somewhat modified 5.7, but I thought I'd give it a try (after all it's only $$$) since I am running out of things to do without major engine teardown/parts replacement. The quality of the BBK is, IMO, very good, and the installation was a breeze, taking only about 15 minutes. After the install, I had to "recalibrate" the throttle, and it takes a number of driving miles for the PCM to figure out that I had changed something. I can only hope that it is still learning because, as I said, so far I am not impressed.

The propaganda for the BBK, Model 1781, indicates a gain of 7-10 or 12-15 hp. depending on which propaganda you're reading. I also know that the "seat of the pants" testing probably can't detect a 7-15 hp. increase. Now, with the new TB, I've only driven about 10-15 miles so far, so my assessment is only based on first impressions.

Here are my observations, FWIW:
1. It took at least a half dozen "recalibration" attempts yesterday, and a couple this morning to get the new TB to respond in a somewhat normal manner.
2. Initially, on cold start up, the engine would race to near 3000 RPM and then quickly "ratchet" down to the normal cold start RPM of ~800-1000 RPM.
3. When revving the engine, it would also "ratchet down" in an irregular manner until reaching curb idle. Today, after the few miles I've driven, it still does the same thing, but not nearly as bad.
4. On this one, first let me say, I have always had superior throttle response with the stock TB, so much so that anyone else that drove it would make it leap at the slightest throttle movement. With the new TB the throttle response is noticeably less than with the stock throttle body. It's more like a "normal" stocker now, which I don't care for. I know some folks that have installed "ported" TB's say the throttle response has improved. I submit that maybe something was wrong with the stock TB they replaced???
5. So far, I've only done 2-3 short WOT runs up to ~60 mph, and the seat of the pants feel doesn't feel any different than with the stock TB. If anything, it may be a little slower.

After I put a bunch more miles (in town and highway) on it, take it to the drags, and do mileage checks, I'll be able to better assess the 85mm TB. So far though, I may have just done a costly experiment that is not yielding satisfactory results. It does look nice on there though. Since I have two Hemi vehicles (LX and WK) that are modded exactly the same (until now), I am just glad I didn't buy two of them like I usually do for all my mod. parts. In the end, time will tell.

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Unread 05-26-2013, 08:33 PM   #2
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All a ported throttle body really does is make for crisper part-throttle response.

The throttle body is NOT the primary restriction for airflow through the engine, and "upgrading" it generally isn't necessary - unless you've gotten stupid with airflow needs (extremely lumpy cam, wild stroker.) It seems typical that the throttle body will flow something like 120-130% of the theoretical airflow requirement for the engine it sits on, and the VE of the engine is usually down around 85-92% (which pushes the "bumper space" for airflow even higher.)

Any stated "power increases" are usually noticed at part-throttle - it doesn't make the curve any higher, it just moves it a bit. If you want to do a mod to make more power output, massage the heads and mod the cam, then open up the exhaust when you're done (those are usually the big choke points for airflow.)
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Unread 05-26-2013, 11:31 PM   #3
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By your response I assume you didn't reference his sig like he mentioned in his first sentence, and for those who don't already know it or are too lazy to view the desktop view on their phone, here it is:

06 GCO, Dk Khaki, QDII, Tint Ft & WS Visor, Flshing Hi 3rd Bk Lt, MDS"ON" Lt, Airtab Vortex Gens, Cbn Fltr, Debadged, Fumoto Drain Valve,BT Catch Can, Chop EGR Tube, SRT-8 CAI, K & N Filter, Sonnax Trans LinePress Booster, SC Tuner W/Adv Trans Tune App, DS Tuner, Cust tubular hdrs w/3 inMagnaflow/Xlerator AP Exh Sys, Bilsteins, SRT Springs/Sways, Cust Eng Cvr, SRT8frt/rear bumpers, FRI Sidewinder Cam/6.1 valvetrain, SLP UD Pulley, BBK true 85mm T-Body


I can't speak for the BBK since I have never tried it, but I do have the FastMan on mine and love it. I don't have the internal mods that you do, but once I calibrated mine it provided a much improved throttle response right off the line. It also made for a much more responsive throttle throughout the entire RPM range. I never had the really annoying lag like some Hemi guys experience which seems to just be a hit or miss thing with the TB. I'm hoping once you getsome more miles on it that it will learn and take advantage of the new TB. It doesn't seem right that you didn't notice any improvements at all, especially combined with your other mods. I have heard of some guys getting a new TB and even after calibrating it multiple times it just wouldn't work as well as the stock TB. Whether it be a lag or just not as responsive. I know one guy who wasn't happy with a ported TB and sent it back for a different one, when the second one came it performed great. So maybe that one just doesn't mesh with your computer perfectly for some reason?
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Unread 05-27-2013, 01:07 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omelet View Post
By your response I assume you didn't reference his sig like he mentioned in his first sentence, and for those who don't already know it or are too lazy to view the desktop view on their phone, here it is:

06 GCO, Dk Khaki, QDII, Tint Ft & WS Visor, Flshing Hi 3rd Bk Lt, MDS"ON" Lt, Airtab Vortex Gens, Cbn Fltr, Debadged, Fumoto Drain Valve,BT Catch Can, Chop EGR Tube, SRT-8 CAI, K & N Filter, Sonnax Trans LinePress Booster, SC Tuner W/Adv Trans Tune App, DS Tuner, Cust tubular hdrs w/3 inMagnaflow/Xlerator AP Exh Sys, Bilsteins, SRT Springs/Sways, Cust Eng Cvr, SRT8frt/rear bumpers, FRI Sidewinder Cam/6.1 valvetrain, SLP UD Pulley, BBK true 85mm T-Body


I can't speak for the BBK since I have never tried it, but I do have the FastMan on mine and love it. I don't have the internal mods that you do, but once I calibrated mine it provided a much improved throttle response right off the line. It also made for a much more responsive throttle throughout the entire RPM range. I never had the really annoying lag like some Hemi guys experience which seems to just be a hit or miss thing with the TB. I'm hoping once you getsome more miles on it that it will learn and take advantage of the new TB. It doesn't seem right that you didn't notice any improvements at all, especially combined with your other mods. I have heard of some guys getting a new TB and even after calibrating it multiple times it just wouldn't work as well as the stock TB. Whether it be a lag or just not as responsive. I know one guy who wasn't happy with a ported TB and sent it back for a different one, when the second one came it performed great. So maybe that one just doesn't mesh with your computer perfectly for some reason?
I did scan his sig - and, while (on review) it looks as though he did some camming and opened up the exhaust a bit (good...) no port work on the head? Even a clean & polish job? It can make a significant difference!

(WRT the "Flashing 3d Brake Lamp" - know that it's a technical violation of FMVSS, and you can get dobbed in for it by a cop who needs to make ticket quota. Dumb, but I kept having to work around that when I was wiring up taillamp flashers on emergency vehicles, which made the whole job take about half again as long on each car. "Forewarned is forearmed" - I think it's a silly rule, and I would even go so far as to say that mandating the CHMSL - or DRL - is a stupid idea. If you're not going to notice TWO bright red lamps on the back of a vehicle, how's a third going to help? Most people are going around with brake lamps burned out anyhow - there's a reason I check mine every six months. I seem to be the only person in the county who will let you know you have a light out, if I pull up next to you at a light. But, that's just what I was taught...)
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Unread 05-27-2013, 01:22 AM   #5
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what is the procedure to calibrate the TB?
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Unread 05-27-2013, 10:38 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneaky2Toes View Post
what is the procedure to calibrate the TB?

um...yes....i've got the fast man and the superchips tuner...but dont think i ever "calibrated the throttle body"...
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Unread 05-27-2013, 11:19 PM   #7
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Alex,

How do you like the Fastman? That is the one I am about to purchase. I have intake, Gibson, and Superchips. Were you happy with the Fastman?
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Unread 05-28-2013, 06:52 AM   #8
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same as above- i run the fastman on my 4.7 with a superchips tuner. i dont remember calibrating the throttle body...
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Unread 05-28-2013, 06:26 PM   #9
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[QUOTE=) it looks as though he did some camming and opened up the exhaust a bit (good...) no port work on the head? Even a clean & polish job? It can make a significant difference![/QUOTE]

New heads (~$2000+, plus major top end teardown) will only deliver ~30 hp., as the stock 5.7 heads flow pretty well. So, IMO, the price per hp. is way out of line, unless I have to get into the engine for some other reason. I did the cam/kit and complete exhaust for ~$2000, and picked up close to 100 hp. between the two mods, increased the volumetric efficiency a fair amount, and eliminated one big choke point and improved valve timing and lift, all while retaining the MDS. Even the "big valve" 5.7 heads, increase the valve sizes by considerably less than 1/16 in. If I ever do heads they'll be either 6.1 or Eagle's. Back in the day when I used to build race cars, we'd port/polish, port match, and install considerably bigger valves using offset valve guides. Haven't heard of anyone doing this with the 5.7 heads and, because of the cost, I can see why.

On the flashing hi-3rd brake light, I've had the one on my LX for about 7 years and the one on the WK for over 3 years, and never had a problem with either.....knock on wood. My flashers only flash 4-5 times and then go solid until brakes are applied again. I hope our cops continue to have better things to do than chase down folks with flashing hi brake lights.

Here is the procedure for the "Throttle Position Pedal Relearn" that BBK included with the TB:
1. Disconnect battery for 5 minutes. Reconnect. (or use a code reader to clear any stored codes in the computer)
2. Turn ignition key to on position, do not start the engine.
3. Slowly depress the gas pedal to the floor, then slowly release it. Do this three (3) times. Turn key off.
4. Now start engine. The gas pedal is now in synch with the larger throttle body.
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Unread 05-28-2013, 06:47 PM   #10
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Three Day Update: I've driven the WK about 50-60 miles since installing the BBK 1781, 85mm throttle body. Tomorrow I'll head out on a 3 day trip (~375 miles), so I'll definitely get a better feel for how it works then. Anyway, it's improved and continues to improve, the more I drive it. It is now operating almost completely as well as the stock one did. Cold, and warm starts are now the same as they were before, the throttle response is almost as good as it was, and the performance is about the same (as near as I can tell) too. As I said in the initial post, it would be difficult to feel a 7-15 hp. increase. I'll do a mileage check on this little trip and I'll also try to head out to the drags in June or July. They're having the Northwest Mopar Championships on June 9th, so that might be a good one to shoot for.
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Unread 05-29-2013, 01:53 PM   #11
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thanks for the relearn procedure....

ima do that tonight....

and kick myself if there's a big noticable difference as I have been driving the thing around for 5 months already...
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Unread 05-29-2013, 02:26 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 90grandoneer View Post
Here is the procedure for the "Throttle Position Pedal Relearn" that BBK included with the TB:
1. Disconnect battery for 5 minutes. Reconnect. (or use a code reader to clear any stored codes in the computer)
2. Turn ignition key to on position, do not start the engine.
3. Slowly depress the gas pedal to the floor, then slowly release it. Do this three (3) times. Turn key off.
4. Now start engine. The gas pedal is now in synch with the larger throttle body.
That's almost the same procedure to reset my "Oil Change Indicator".

Quote:
How to reset a service indicator

The oil change indicator can be reset using the following steps:

1. Turn the ignition key to ON but do not start the engine.
2. Slowly depress the accelerator to the floor and release it three times within 10 seconds.
3. Turn the ignition key to the OFF position.
http://www.wkjeeps.com/wk_oil_indicator.htm
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Unread 05-31-2013, 06:08 PM   #13
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JRLT, now that's funny. Looks like the BBK folks stole something out of the FSM/Owner's Manuals. I typed it word for word from their info. sheet. I think I should have tried starting it (after the TB install) without doing the "recalibration", just to see what would happen. Wonder if you also reset your throttle or I reset the oil change indicator (which I don't have) in mine, LOL? Do you think this procedure will add fuel to the tank, change the brakes or ?? if we do it every time we have an issue with our WK's?

Just got back from a 366.4 mile trip, and this is the first trip with the new BBK true 85mm TB. Fuel economy first: Driving was at altitudes of ~2400-5500 ft. elevation, with almost no wind outbound in hilly terrain and increasing elevation, ending up at just over 5500 ft. Inbound was over the same terrain, but had ~20-25 mph cross and head winds the entire distance. All driving was done at ~63-67 mpg, in 4th gear (~2200-2400 RPM). EVIC reading at arrival destination was 22.0 mpg. EVIC reading at arrival home (reset to 0 before departing for home) was 21.0 mpg. Highest observed EVIC reading outbound was 24.7 mpg, and inbound highest observed was 22.3 mpg. Actual fuel economy was, 21.55 mpg (366.4 miles divided by 17.0 gallons), using 87 non ethanol fuel. With my mods. (using the SC 91 tune) I can "get away with" running 87 when it's cooler and because of the altitudes. Rule of thumb is one octane point lower octane required for every 1000 ft. increase in elevation. This economy is almost identical to what I used to get with the stock throttle body. Since it's almost always windy here, it's often tough to get a real FE test that isn't skewed to some extent by it. I'll keep an eye on it in the future.

One week summary: As I said before regarding the 85mm TB, I don't really see any difference in anything (throttle response, idle quality, etc.), except maybe the WK is a little slower than it was with the stock 80mm TB. I plan to take it to the drags in a week or so and, at that time, will be able to say for sure if it affected performance, either positively or negatively.
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Unread 05-31-2013, 07:12 PM   #14
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So basically another mod that probably runs worse than stock...

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Unread 05-31-2013, 09:25 PM   #15
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Well, I am not going to say that just yet but, so far, there is no noticeable difference. I'll give it a fair chance, and do more mileage checks, and take it to the drags to see if it runs any better than it did with the stock TB.

Update.....again: Just did my "post flight inspection" after getting home from the relatively short trip. I found that the TB cover for the electronics had come off and was just sitting on the tube that goes between the airbox and the oil filler tube. Guess I'll be giving the BBK folks a call on Monday.
dscn2675-600-x-450-.jpg   dscn2674-600-x-450-.jpg   dscn2673-600-x-450-.jpg  
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