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Unread 03-24-2015, 03:43 PM   #1
srwells37
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: cincinnati, ohio
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Help with gas in oil, running rich, and smoking exhaust

Hey all. I have a 2007 jeep grand Cherokee with 5.7 hemi that I've been working on for awhile now trying to figure out why it's running rich and stalling. I have another post about this but got old so I'm staring a new thread.
Here's what's going on.
I start the jeep and let it idle. It idles fine for about 5 minutes then gas smelling smoke comes out the tailpipe ( no, it's not a blown head gasket)
What I've done so far.
Replaced MAP sensor and checked wires
Replaced ECT sensor and checked wires
Replaced both front o2 sensors. (1/1. 2/1)
Replaced IAC sensor and checked wires
Fuel pressure test 60 psi when running and 58 not running. Pressure dropped down to 52 in 5 minutes.
Checked fuel injectors for voltage/pulse. All was good
Checked for fuel injector leaks. None leaking.
No codes are showing and no codes pending.
New battery.
I might be forgetting something that I've checked but if anybody can help me, I would really appreciate and if your suggestion solves my problem, ill buy you a beer. Thanks.

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Unread 03-24-2015, 04:26 PM   #2
90grandoneer
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The only way gasoline is going to get into the engine is through the fuel injectors. The O2s' input to the PCM and its commands to the injectors are the primary things that control pulse width. Have you checked the PCM? I think you need to find a place that has a good computerized diagnostic tool, and can check the PCM and injector pulse widths when the engine is running and malfunctioning. I have an Autel MaxiDas DS708 that will do all of this, and most any knowledgeable, somewhat computer educated shop should have a similar device. I finally figured out that if I am going to have computer controlled vehicles (I am guessing that all are today), I am going to have to have some way of checking and verifying the various systems and their components. Otherwise you'll just be replacing components until you stumble onto the real problem.

"Checked fuel injectors for voltage/pulse. All was good"

How did you check the pulse width? Were they all the same (or close) at various throttle settings?

"Checked for fuel injector leaks. None leaking."

How did you do this? Did you pull all the injectors and put them on a flow bench?

I am surprised that you are not getting any codes when it starts malfunctioning, especially since it's obviously running very rich.
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06 GCO, Dk Khaki, QDII, Flshing Hi 3rd Bk Lt, MDS "ON" Lt, Airtab Vortex Gens, Debadged, Fumoto Drain Valve, BT Catch Can, Chopped EGR Tube, SRT8 CAI, K&N Filter, Sonnax Trans Line Press Booster, SC Tuner W/Adv Trans Tune App, DS Tuner, Cust tubular hdrs w/3 in Magnaflow/Xlerator AP Exh Sys, Bilsteins, SRT Springs/Sways, Cust Eng Cvr, SRT8 frt/rear bumpers, FRI Sidewinder Cam/6.1 valvetrain, SLP 25% UD Pulley, BBK true 90mm T-Body, SOS Ign Coils w/.060 spark plug gaps, SRT Reps with 265/45&295/40X20's.
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Unread 03-24-2015, 05:02 PM   #3
srwells37
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I used a noid light for pulse and multimeter for voltage on injectors. I pulled the fuel rail and with key on, checked for leaks
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Unread 03-25-2015, 04:55 PM   #4
srwells37
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I was able to borrow a snap on scanner today from a friend.
The o2 sensor 1/1 pulse width heater was 0 volts 2/1 was 54
1/2 was at 99 and 2/2 was at 99. That's after letting the engine run for 5 minutes.
Any thoughts ? Thanks
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Unread 03-25-2015, 07:25 PM   #5
90grandoneer
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What kind (brand) of O2 sensors did you install? I am guessing this scanner is giving you "freeze frame" data on the O2 voltages. It would be nice to see real time "live data" from them with the engine running. The voltages of the 1/1 and 2/1 (front) sensors should be continually and fairly rapidly be fluctuating from in a range of ~100-900 mV, crossing the midpoint (crosscounts) of 450 mV going up and coming down. You may want to read this thread on O2's if you have questions: http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f67/o...rimer-1182446/ The 1/2 and 2/2 (rear) sensors should be relatively stable somewhere above .450 mV, and both are usually pretty close to each other in the mV readings. Once the heaters have warmed up the O2's there shouldn't be any voltage to them. This should happen in less than about 45 seconds on initial cold start.

With the scanner, did you recently check for all (stored, pending, active) codes to see if any show up? Besides active codes, the stored ones would be the ones I'd be interested in. Will that tester allow you to watch (in real time) the injector pulse width and, if so, are they all relatively close to each other?

A couple other questions: When did this problem start...before you changed the components listed in your first post, or after? Are you sure you have the correct O2 Sensors? What is the engine temperature when this all starts happening? When is the last time the plugs were changed? What type is installed? Have you pulled one since this all started and, if so, what did it look like (color and wet or dry) on the firing end? (Do this if you haven't already...... one or two on each cylinder bank.) What does the exhaust color look/smell like when this is happening?

A couple other comments: If this is so bad that you're getting fuel into the oil, that means it's getting past the rings to gain access to the crankcase. If this is happening in large enough quantities, you could be washing the oil off the cylinder walls which could start scoring. I've even seen one engine (small block Chevy) where the fuel in the crankcase (leaky fuel pump diaphram) ignited and blew the valve covers off the engine. This is not likely to happen in your case, but the possibility of cylinder wall damage is real, if you're getting that much fuel down there. I am also surprised that, if it's that rich, you're not getting misfire codes. A spark plug reading will help verify what might be going on.
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06 GCO, Dk Khaki, QDII, Flshing Hi 3rd Bk Lt, MDS "ON" Lt, Airtab Vortex Gens, Debadged, Fumoto Drain Valve, BT Catch Can, Chopped EGR Tube, SRT8 CAI, K&N Filter, Sonnax Trans Line Press Booster, SC Tuner W/Adv Trans Tune App, DS Tuner, Cust tubular hdrs w/3 in Magnaflow/Xlerator AP Exh Sys, Bilsteins, SRT Springs/Sways, Cust Eng Cvr, SRT8 frt/rear bumpers, FRI Sidewinder Cam/6.1 valvetrain, SLP 25% UD Pulley, BBK true 90mm T-Body, SOS Ign Coils w/.060 spark plug gaps, SRT Reps with 265/45&295/40X20's.
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Unread 03-25-2015, 08:12 PM   #6
srwells37
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The o2 sensors are Ngk from rockauto. There are no active, pending, or stored codes. The scanner only let me see 2 injectors in real time. This problem started before I changed the components. I got the o2 sensors part # from a dodge website and rock auto had them so I'm pretty sure I have the right ones. The engine temp is only 70 f per scanner. The engine won't run long enough to get it warmer. I pulled the champion copper plugs. # 1 cyl was wet and # 3 cyl was black soot. The rest were tan. I replaced them a month before this problem. The exhaust smoke is grey/ white and smells like gas. I don't know what sulfur smells like but it smells like strong gas exhaust. Thanks 2006 wk.
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Unread 03-26-2015, 08:25 AM   #7
90grandoneer
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IMO, the NTK's were a good choice, as they were type used by the factory. I am sure you have the right ones then. The scanners will usually only give you one cylinder per bank for injector readings. The pulse numbers of both should be quite close to each other if everything is working properly. If not, the bank with the higher pulse rate is the side that's causing the problem. You should also pull a couple plugs on the passenger side bank too and see how they're looking. Sulphur smells like rotten eggs.

Does the scanner you're using also read long and short term fuel trims and air/fuel mixtures? If so, the long term fuel trims should be as close to zero as possible, preferably a little on the minus side. They should normally never go beyond ~+5 to -5. The short term trim will fluctuate more than the long term, and may do so periodically higher and lower than zero than plus or minus 5. The air/fuel ratio, once warm, should always be 14.7/1 (except at WOT), if all is working well. If it's too much below that (say about 10-11/1) you're getting too rich.

The sequence I'd use is to try and isolate which bank is causing the problem, or whether or not it is both banks. If it is both banks, the problem will be caused by something that globally affects the whole engine. If it's limited to one bank, that will probably make it easier to troubleshoot, since you can probably rule out most of the sensors and the PCM.

You said the engine temperature is only reaching 70*F?? Have you felt the radiator and engine block/head after running it for 5 minutes or so? Are they both obviously hotter than 70*F? If so, your temp. sensor is bad, and telling the PCM that the engine is still cold. This will cause it to tell the injectors to add more fuel (like choke mode) until it warms up. If just the engine block/head is hot and the radiator is cool, the problem is probably the thermostat. I also find it strange that, if this is happening, you'd be getting a MIL telling you that the engine is not warming up within the calculated specified time.
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06 GCO, Dk Khaki, QDII, Flshing Hi 3rd Bk Lt, MDS "ON" Lt, Airtab Vortex Gens, Debadged, Fumoto Drain Valve, BT Catch Can, Chopped EGR Tube, SRT8 CAI, K&N Filter, Sonnax Trans Line Press Booster, SC Tuner W/Adv Trans Tune App, DS Tuner, Cust tubular hdrs w/3 in Magnaflow/Xlerator AP Exh Sys, Bilsteins, SRT Springs/Sways, Cust Eng Cvr, SRT8 frt/rear bumpers, FRI Sidewinder Cam/6.1 valvetrain, SLP 25% UD Pulley, BBK true 90mm T-Body, SOS Ign Coils w/.060 spark plug gaps, SRT Reps with 265/45&295/40X20's.
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Unread 03-26-2015, 11:36 AM   #8
corswandtm
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90grandoneer has far more info than me, but I had a thought about the plugs. Many stalling problems have been corrected by using Champion Copper 570 plugs PURCHASED FROM THE DEALER. The Mopar plugs are identical in every way to the Champion 570 that can be purchased anywhere, but it seems the OEM plug that should be used has a dark tip where the other plugs have a shiny metallic tip.
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Unread 03-26-2015, 01:09 PM   #9
90grandoneer
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That's a good point, corswandtm, I had forgotten that the 07's were the ones that had the stalling problem. I don't think that'll fix his rich condition though. What I can't figure out is why he isn't getting any codes??
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06 GCO, Dk Khaki, QDII, Flshing Hi 3rd Bk Lt, MDS "ON" Lt, Airtab Vortex Gens, Debadged, Fumoto Drain Valve, BT Catch Can, Chopped EGR Tube, SRT8 CAI, K&N Filter, Sonnax Trans Line Press Booster, SC Tuner W/Adv Trans Tune App, DS Tuner, Cust tubular hdrs w/3 in Magnaflow/Xlerator AP Exh Sys, Bilsteins, SRT Springs/Sways, Cust Eng Cvr, SRT8 frt/rear bumpers, FRI Sidewinder Cam/6.1 valvetrain, SLP 25% UD Pulley, BBK true 90mm T-Body, SOS Ign Coils w/.060 spark plug gaps, SRT Reps with 265/45&295/40X20's.
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Unread 03-27-2015, 08:57 PM   #10
srwells37
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Injector pulse width is 1936 and 1920. I took pictures of the scanner and the flash got in the way of which cyl is which. I had the flu for the past couple days and I'm getting married tomorrow so I'll have to put this on hold till a week from now. Thanks for the help so far. Ill keep you all posted when I get back from my honeymoon.
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Unread 03-28-2015, 02:37 PM   #11
90grandoneer
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Good luck and have a great wedding/honeymoon. Don't do anything I wouldn't do, LOL.
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06 GCO, Dk Khaki, QDII, Flshing Hi 3rd Bk Lt, MDS "ON" Lt, Airtab Vortex Gens, Debadged, Fumoto Drain Valve, BT Catch Can, Chopped EGR Tube, SRT8 CAI, K&N Filter, Sonnax Trans Line Press Booster, SC Tuner W/Adv Trans Tune App, DS Tuner, Cust tubular hdrs w/3 in Magnaflow/Xlerator AP Exh Sys, Bilsteins, SRT Springs/Sways, Cust Eng Cvr, SRT8 frt/rear bumpers, FRI Sidewinder Cam/6.1 valvetrain, SLP 25% UD Pulley, BBK true 90mm T-Body, SOS Ign Coils w/.060 spark plug gaps, SRT Reps with 265/45&295/40X20's.
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Unread 03-29-2015, 08:06 AM   #12
srwells37
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Thanks 90grandoneer. Ill borrow the scanner again when I get home and report back. Off to the honeymoon I go.
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Unread 03-30-2015, 09:42 AM   #13
srwells37
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Ok. Waiting on my wife to get ready for a day of fun so I have a few hours to kill. Lol.
I was going through the pictures I took of the data from the scanner
Tell me if this is normal.

Rpm. 733. 958
Map volt. . 1.603. 2.207
Map vac 59.12. 49.33
Mass air flow. 10.844. 13.673
Manifold air press. 39.14 49.08
Barometric press. 98.09

Tps 1 volts. 0.885
Tps 2 volts. 4.140
Tps 1 (min volts). 0.523
Tps 2 (min volts). 4.502 ( alittle low don't know if I should worry about ? )
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Unread 03-30-2015, 10:15 AM   #14
srwells37
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Measurements are Kpa. 1st colum was when jeep was 1st started. 2nd colum is when jeep was running for 3 minutes.
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Unread 04-05-2015, 08:24 PM   #15
srwells37
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Ok. I'm back home. What should I check to get the thing running right ?
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