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Finding hemi shorty wires

7K views 33 replies 9 participants last post by  90grandoneer 
#1 ·
I have seen 20 different threads on the USE of shorty wires on the 2005 GC Hemi, ie "has anyone used them", but I have not been able to identify them for purchase.

I just ordered a set of MSD blaster ignition coils, DiabloSport Intune, K&N cold air intake, and now I would like to find these "shorty" wires everyone has talked about but I haven't been able to find.

For clarification I am looking to eliminate the secondary spark plug from igniting on the exhaust stroke, and attaching each one to the same coil on the same cylinder.

Thank you for anyone who takes the time to help! I'm really getting frustrated looking for these wires.
 
#8 ·
Those coils are for '06 and later. The mounting holes for the bolts that hold the coils to the valve covers are different than earlier valve covers. Because the coil now spans both plugs instead of just one. So you would have to change valve covers to be able to mount them correctly.
I also think, although I'm not positive on this, the ignition connection plug is different and would have to be changed too.
 
#9 ·
N7vrz is absolutely correct in all regards. I switched everything over to the late model system on my 05 Hemi LX. You will need the 06> Valve Covers and the new plugs (3 pin) in addition to the coils. Be aware that the wiring pinouts are also different. You will NOT need the Taylor Shorty Wires with this setup. I used SOS coils on mine....just like I have on my Hemi WK. Now both systems are identical, which was my goal. The pix below are the before and after setups.
 

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#10 ·
The dual plug coils are for the 2006 and up as was already stated above. My MSD coils are single coil over plug, with a wire lead on the side that attaches the secondary wire.

The 2005 has long wires that attach to each coil, and run across the top of the intake manifold to fire a secondary spark plug on the exhaust stroke of that cylinder while the combustion is initiated by the spark plug under the coil of the next cylinder. I'm eliminating all of these damn eco friendly systems, I can't stand seeing the EGR pipe going into my intake manifold, i hate MDS(I get 7-9MPG regularly even with a light touch anyway), and I think the secondary spark system is ridiculous.

I will let everyone know how this goes, I have a little work to do before using the DS Intune i2, i'll install the coils\wires\cold air intake first, and maybe a catch can.

Does anybody know how the PCV system works aside from the main accumulator and CCV line? I'm looking it over, and there is another vacuum hose running from the side of the oil fill unit, that comes out the side, and runs around the front of the engine back into the stock air box. Do I have to delete that to use a cold air intake? Or is there a bung on the K&N intake for that hose to attach?
 
#14 ·
So now that the coils and wires are installed, my vehicle runs WORSE.
When I first started it back up, it was quiet and the test drive went fine.

No CEL, no shuddering\bucking\lurching.
Then I went back inside, took a shower and changed, and went to go back out, boom, started it up and it was shuddering so violently that
the entire engine was moving back and forth and the car was rocking back and forth.

I obviously jumped out and rechecked everything, but nothing was amiss. Started it back up, and it ran "decently", and I took it a mile or so away, then at a stop light it started bucking again.
It seems like as it got colder out it got worse. Today I started it up in the daytime just to grab something quick to eat, and it shuddered a little, but wasn't anywhere near as bad and nonexistent in park or neutral. Checked it again later today when it was colder, and it was worse. What the heck is going on with this Jeep? I am pretty experienced in automotive and I have come across very few issues that I can't figure out. This just makes no sense because everything on top of the motor is new, there are no codes, but the car is running like it's about to explode. Usually you can narrow it down.

Lastly, which I also have never seen, my MPG indicator was counting down like a clock, very steadily until it reached 1.6 MPG. I had 30 miles left worth of gas, and 5 minutes later it alerted me "low fuel". I usually get gas before this time but I just brought it home for now to pull of the intake plenum and check the throttle body. Not much to check as the IAC and TPS are not serviceable, TPS being it's drive by wire, and the IAC in fixed into the throttle body.
 
#15 ·
I don't think you ever told us how many miles are on your ride? Also, how long have you had this vehicle? Did you change all the components you listed because you were chasing this problem or did you do it just for giggles, or??? For me, I got tired of relying on crappy, low end code scanners and, like a few others, sprung for a good computerized diagnostic scanner that will work on any vehicle I'll ever own that runs the OBDII, CAN Bus system.....which is almost everything today. It takes a lot of the guess work out of troubleshooting, does way more things than I'll ever need/use, and for sure cuts down on the random parts replacing in hopes of stumbling onto the problem.

All that being said, have you changed the cam/crank sensors? When traveling, I carry one of each with both my Hemi vehicles (cost ~$25 each) along with my diagnostic scanner, as either/both of these sensors can strand you if they fail. Granted they don't normally fail outright all at once, but they can cause you a lot of grief when they start acting up.
 
#16 ·
Hi, sorry I have 105,000 miles on it, I bought it around 95,000, and nothing was ever changed. The car ran great when I test drove it for about half an hour, but when I took it home the check engine light came on, and gave a code for the EGR. It also needed a power steering pump, and it was due for the water pump and belt.

So being I had a lot of it apart at the time I opted to change the PCV, MAP sensor, and intake manifold gaskets, but my brother broke the damn PCV in the manifold because it was stuck, so I ended up having the buy the entire manifold.

I have not changed the cam or crank sensors yet, would those cause the shaking\bucking\surging\almost stalling issue?
I drove it yesterday with no problems, and then this morning I went to grab some breakfast, and when I left the deli, it started violently shaking again, the idle dipping below 500, and then after a minute the check engine light flashed 10 or 11 times and then went off. By the time I got to work, the idle went almost back to normal again. I'm really getting frustrated because I replaced so many parts I'm running out of possibilities.
 
#17 ·
Hi, sorry I have 105,000 miles on it, I bought it around 95,000, and nothing was ever changed. The car ran great when I test drove it for about half an hour, but when I took it home the check engine light came on, and gave a code for the EGR. It also needed a power steering pump, and it was due for the water pump and belt.

So being I had a lot of it apart at the time I opted to change the PCV, MAP sensor, and intake manifold gaskets, but my brother broke the damn PCV in the manifold because it was stuck, so I ended up having the buy the entire manifold.

I have not changed the cam or crank sensors yet, would those cause the shaking\bucking\surging\almost stalling issue?
I drove it yesterday with no problems, and then this morning I went to grab some breakfast, and when I left the deli, it started violently shaking again, the idle dipping below 500, and then after a minute the check engine light flashed 10 or 11 times and then went off. By the time I got to work, the idle went almost back to normal again. I'm really getting frustrated because I replaced so many parts I'm running out of possibilities.
Don't feel bad as, IMO, there is nothing wrong with changing all those components, especially with that many miles on it, and the vehicle being relatively new to you. Now you will know the maintenance status, going forward.

Several have broken the PCV Valve off in the manifold, but you can get it out with an easy out, long nose pliers and a magnet.

Of all the components you've changed, the only one that could come anywhere near causing the issues you're having is the EGR Valve. Some have also gotten Chinese made valves that did not work right out of the box. Some symptoms of EGR problems, are rough, erratic, almost stalling idle, low speed (~30-50 mph) surging, poor performance and fuel economy. Also, the EGR system is not active until the engine warms up a little, so if this is the problem it would probably work better when the engine is cold and worse after it warms up. If it is not working, you should be getting some sort of P04?? DTC.

It is very possible (and IMO quite likely) that the cam and/or crank sensor could be causing your problem. That is why, IMO, it is important with any newer than 1996, all computerized vehicle to have some sort of computerized diagnostic tester. In the long run it'll save you lots of time and money (on any newer family and friends vehicles), and will easily quickly pay for itself, especially if you end up not having to take it to a dealer or independent a few times. My tester will check almost all sensors and allow reset, test, calibration, and relearn of other components.

FYI, the Cam Sensor determines which cylinder is firing to establish synchronization of the fuel injectors and the coil firing sequence in Distributorless Ignition Systems (DIS) systems like the Hemi has. The Crankshaft Sensor adjusts ignition timing, supplies the PCM with the RPM signal, and determines engine speed.

A couple other things....if you change these sensors:
---As I said, they're about $25 each.
---Be sure to follow the FSM instructions when changing them.....especially cleaning (crank sensor) and torque specs.
---There is a reset/relearn procedure that shows up on my tester. I don't know if this is absolutely necessary upon installation of new sensors though.

One other thing you may want to do before too long is change the O2 Sensors, as they're normally only good for about 100K and fail slowly, like spark plugs. They'll run about $120-150 for all four, but are a bear to change if you have a stock exhaust system. I had one go bad at 60K and did a thread on them afterwards. Here's the ref. to it, if you're interested:

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f67/oxygen-sensors-their-role-engine-management-primer-1182446/
 
#18 ·
- I have a scanner, as soon as it gave me a DTC I scanned and and had P0300 - which you all know well I'm sure.
- The EGR is changed and I used ALL mopar parts there is not a single Chinese part on my vehicle.

Changed the cam\crank sensors yesterday, and it seemed to run a lot better right after and the code cleared for now(but that is because I had the negative terminal disc).
Took it for a 45 minute drive to do the relearn again, and the idle seemed steady.

Started it up to take it to the store down the block around midnight, and it started shaking again at startup, WTF.
No code this time, less shaking but the car was still rocking back and forth.
Started driving, and it went away after a few blocks. At lights the idle drops from 580 to 500, mild shaking when at operating temp.

I feel like it's building towards the major misfiring I had before, it's like a cycle of madness, I'm starting to think it's something internally wrong in my valve train, or with the piston rings, compression, or witchcraft. I love this Jeep, but they royally screwed up when designing these vehicles and it is going to be the last one I ever buy. I don't give up easy, but I put hundreds of hours of work on this, installing the lift, replacing the entire suspension, last month dropping the front diff and pounding those godforsaken carrier bushings out, servicing the rear diff front seal and outter seals on both front and rear. Changed drive train fluids front to back, calipers, and all the work on the engine support systems. All this TLC and this is how it repays me? I have never heard of someone taking care of a vehicle like this and having problem after problem. I watch idiots that can't even change their oil driving a POS car for 100,000 and only need spark plugs.

I read your 02 sensor thread. Since the O2 sensors are the only thing left besides the engine coolant sensor and the entire engine block that haven't been changed, I suppose I should go and throw a couple more parts at it. What difference does it make now I'm already completely broke trying to get this POS Jeep to run normally.
 
#19 ·
Will update tomorrow I'll be on it right after work all night probably.

Good info on the 02 sensor input, I'm researching it tonight.
Maybe I can figure out the proper voltage ranges and input sequences and analyze them. But I have to do a compression test and fuel pressure test to rule those areas out.

If none of this works, there has to be a valve train issue, as I have read about here as well.
 
#20 ·
Whoa!! I just went back and looked at your post No. 13 on what all you've replaced, and I didn't see SPARK PLUGS. In post No. 16 you said nothing had ever been changed....I assume you mean things done by the previous owner. Did you replace the spark plugs??? If you haven't, by all means do this before passing "GO" again. Just make sure to use a good copper core plug (16 of them), make sure they're properly gapped, use a torque wrench to properly torque them, and DO NOT use any anti-seize compound on the threads of NEW plugs. I've used NGK plugs in both my Hemi's for years and never have had any misfire problems like some have had with the factory or equivalent Champions. I am sure sorry you're having so much trouble with yours. As I said earlier, without a good scanner that will give you real time data for various components and give you a freeze frame information of what was going on when the MIL/DTC was set, it's extremely difficult to figure this out, other than by replacing parts based on codes.

If the O2's are the source of your problems, they must be near the point of total failure and setting a DTC. You'll be getting terrible fuel economy, and if you pull a plug or two on any cylinder, they'll probably be wet with fuel, you'll be getting black smoke out of the exhaust, and you may get all kinds of ignition misfires. Also, if this is the case, you'll be at risk of ruining the catalytic converters, and they're not cheap to replace.

If worse comes to worse, after you sort all of this out and still can't find anything wrong, it would be time to do compression and cylinder leak down tests. If you haven't changed the spark plugs, for peace of mind, do these tests when you do that job. These tests will tell you the overall condition of the valve train and the engine in general. I will say that, with the amount of miles on yours, it would not be normal and should not be an issue, unless it has been previously overheated and/or poorly maintained. Then, worst case scenario since yours is an 05, you may be at risk of the dreaded early model 5.7 "dropped valve seat" (not too common) and massive engine destruction on the affected cylinder. You'll know if this happens, as you'll have a bunch of noise, DTC's and it may no longer start.

Fuel pressure problems are very uncommon, but not out of the realm of possibility. If it were low, it would be harder to start. Pumps normally don't fail with your mileage unless there has been repeated contaminated fuel run through it or the pump has been run dry for a long period, to name a couple reasons. A badly plugged filter in the tank could cause fuel starvation. If you get to this point you'd also want to look at the fuel injectors. Along these lines (of last resort) the PCM would also need to be checked, but you need a good scanner for this.
 
#21 ·
The plugs are replaced lol...i didnt think i needed a compression test at the time. But i changed the coils, plugs and wires which is the point where i started posting here.

Interesting comment because some of my plugs were wet, and the P0300 code persisted.
I wonder if i have bad O2 sensors and a bad cat now. It would be safe to say if its getting worse that the cat is becoming more restricted. At this point i would be HAPPY to find that it was the cat. At least i would finally know whaf the heck happened.

Im taking it to a shop. I cant keep blindly fixing this vehicle, my shop has good scanners and other tools i dont.

Whoa!! I just went back and looked at your post No. 13 on what all you've replaced, and I didn't see SPARK PLUGS. In post No. 16 you said nothing had ever been changed....I assume you mean things done by the previous owner. Did you replace the spark plugs??? If you haven't, by all means do this before passing "GO" again. Just make sure to use a good copper core plug (16 of them), make sure they're properly gapped, use a torque wrench to properly torque them, and DO NOT use any anti-seize compound on the threads of NEW plugs. I've used NGK plugs in both my Hemi's for years and never have had any misfire problems like some have had with the factory or equivalent Champions. I am sure sorry you're having so much trouble with yours. As I said earlier, without a good scanner that will give you real time data for various components and give you a freeze frame information of what was going on when the MIL/DTC was set, it's extremely difficult to figure this out, other than by replacing parts based on codes.

If the O2's are the source of your problems, they must be near the point of total failure and setting a DTC. You'll be getting terrible fuel economy, and if you pull a plug or two on any cylinder, they'll probably be wet with fuel, you'll be getting black smoke out of the exhaust, and you may get all kinds of ignition misfires. Also, if this is the case, you'll be at risk of ruining the catalytic converters, and they're not cheap to replace.

If worse comes to worse, after you sort all of this out and still can't find anything wrong, it would be time to do compression and cylinder leak down tests. If you haven't changed the spark plugs, for peace of mind, do these tests when you do that job. These tests will tell you the overall condition of the valve train and the engine in general. I will say that, with the amount of miles on yours, it would not be normal and should not be an issue, unless it has been previously overheated and/or poorly maintained. Then, worst case scenario since yours is an 05, you may be at risk of the dreaded early model 5.7 "dropped valve seat" (not too common) and massive engine destruction on the affected cylinder. You'll know if this happens, as you'll have a bunch of noise, DTC's and it may no longer start.

Fuel pressure problems are very uncommon, but not out of the realm of possibility. If it were low, it would be harder to start. Pumps normally don't fail with your mileage unless there has been repeated contaminated fuel run through it or the pump has been run dry for a long period, to name a couple reasons. A badly plugged filter in the tank could cause fuel starvation. If you get to this point you'd also want to look at the fuel injectors. Along these lines (of last resort) the PCM would also need to be checked, but you need a good scanner for this.
 
#22 ·
So I did a compression test and the compression is good, fuel pressure is good, injectors are good, they hold pressure, the resistance on the coils are within proper specs, so I took it to a shop I trust, maybe get a second opinion on this. Double checked the injectors, and used a scope to check the intake valves. There was a lot of carbon buildup, so I gave him the go ahead to do a seafoam treatment.

He gave it back a few hours later saying he thinks that solved the problem, but sure enough I took it down to florida and the first time I stopped, it started missing again at idle and stored a PO300 code.

How much more diagnostic can be done here? I installed a new cam/crank sensor as well as bank 1 O2 sensor before the compression test. Does anyone have any ideas? Lifters?(it does tap for a few minutes at startup) Losing hope that this will ever be fixed.
 
#23 ·
On the compression test, what is "good"? Give us the numbers for each cylinder. Also, while you had the plugs out (one for each cylinder) you should have done a leak down test on each cylinder. It will either confirm or eliminate the mechanical conditions that could cause your problems. If it checks good, you pretty much know it's electronic. If that is the case, for sure you'll need to find someone with a good computerized diagnostic tester that can check all the drive train electronic systems/components. They'll need to drive it with the tester hooked up so they can see what is happening in real time, especially if they can get the code(s) to set. Also, when the code(s) is/are triggered they should be able to get clues from the Freeze Frame Data that is captured when the code sets.
 
#24 ·
I had to take a trip to Florida over the holiday, as soon as I get back I will post the compression / leak down test results. The seafoam treatment seemed to work for a hundred miles or so, but on the trip down it started misfiring again with the PO300 code and random stalling. Sometimes throwing it in neutral brings the RPM up, sometimes turning the A/C on smooths it out. This is all random though. Other times when it misfires, hitting the gas won't make it gout away and the check engine light will blink for 10 seconds. I have never had this much trouble pinpointing an issue. Wish me luck on the drive home.
 
#25 ·
I see on my DS708 there is a "setup" or "sync" for the cam/crank sensors. I am guessing this is to make sure they're working together. I don't know if it would cause an issue if it were not done with new sensors. I've never had to replace either (yet) so I've not had the need to use this feature. I have run it with the factory cam/crank sensors just to see what would happen and there was no change at all in anything. I am still thinking you need to drive it with a good scanner hooked up and see if you can "catch" it when it screws up. Good luck on the drive home.
 
#27 ·
Having tuneup done today and mechanic says the 82241 shorty wires are way too short and won't fit.

Says all engine wires are 2 ft. long or longer. Any ideas what the issue is?

2005 5.7L Hemi

UPDATE: The mechanic figured it out. I wonder what the issue was...
The Shorty's should only be about 7-8 in. long and connect to the spark plug right next to the coil that the wire is plugged into. Maybe the mechanic didn't understand the purpose or concept of the shorties in removing the "Wasted Spark System".
 
#30 ·
Sneaky, if you're addressing the question to me, the answer is "no" to the MSD coils and "yes" to the can you use the shorty wires. On my 05 Hemi LX I converted it over to the late model setup (coil over both plugs) so it would be like the 06 WK. You can get the coils I used for the 05's (coil over one plug) though. Here's where I bought both of my sets: www.PerformanceDistributors.com Go to, "SOS Coils" under the products heading.
 
#31 ·
90grandoeer,

I was asking the OP since I thought I read he was still using the wires. I see you converted yours to the 06+. How did you modify the coil wires? I see that MSD makes a kit for the 05 but from the pics, it is hard to see if there is a place to connect a shorty wire to it. Was reading a few threads on the MSD coils and got the feeling it was mostly snake oil. Something about the coil having more spark potential, but not being allowed to charge enough between sparks that it was actually less than the stock coil. They do look good though :)
 
#32 ·
The SOS coils for the 05's are similar to the stock coils and will still use the shorty wires. They just put out a bunch more voltage. (IIRC, the MSD's don't say anything about increased voltage output.) As a result, I run the spark plug gaps on mine at around .060 in. I mainly did my 05 so it would match the 06.....mostly for parts interchangeability and ease of troubleshooting. With the SOS coils I noticed a slightly better idle quality and a little bump (easily within the margin of error) in fuel economy. Overall I am happy with them though. My philosophy is that almost every little bit helps. As with most mods., by themselves, don't do that much, but when you add them all up the end result is a pretty good improvement. The biggest gains and most noticeable improvements on both of mine were from the headers/cat. back exhausts and the higher lift, longer duration camshafts. The cam wouldn't work to its full potential though without a tuner and a good header back exhaust that would allow you to take advantage of the better cam specs. Without those two items, you'd probably only get maybe 30-50% of the potential of the cam. I've read where one guy changed his cam but left the stock valve springs......totally a waste of time and $$$, and a real potential of blowing the engine if he floated the valves (over revved) one too many times.

As for the wires that plug into the coils, the 05's are different from the 06>'s and require a changeover. I understand someone now makes an adapter pigtail so you don't have to change the plugs.....just plug in the adapter pigtails. I just cut the old wires/plugs off and installed the new ones (soldered and shrink wrapped) making sure they were wired correctly. The wires are reversed on the newer setup. Also, with this mod., I needed to get the later model valve covers.

Here's what my 05 looked like with my home made shorties (pre-Taylor) and then with the later model setup.
 

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#34 ·
There are NO stupid questions, as sometimes inquiring minds want to know. There really is no big advantage to changing over to the "coil over both plugs" setup, except maybe it looks nicer (and in my case makes it exactly like my WK) but, you'd be spending more money.....which really isn't an advantage. It's fairly costly.......new coils, new 06> adapter coil plugs and new valve covers. As said earlier in this thread, you can purchase high output SOS coils that are juat like the ones on your 05 now, and continue to use either your stock wires or the Taylor Shorties. If you just wanted to change the coils, it would save you the cost of valve covers and the new coil connector wiring. With the SOS coils, you'll also be able to run a wider spark plug gap.
 
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