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Unread 10-04-2010, 06:25 PM   #1
crd_yarp
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CRD oil leak, but dye not showing anywhere

April '07 Grand Cherokee WK 3.0L CRD OM642. Bought new Oct '08 and now have 61,040 miles.

Washed engine thoroughly (water runs clean for hours), has six (maybe seven) ounces leak dye in oil, have driven 450+ miles.... oil is still appearing but doesn't have any dye in it.

The dye does show up in the turbo intake, oil cap, dip stick.

1st Question: Does this engine have an internal cavity somewhere (and large enough) that it could actually this long for a leak to work through?

2nd Question: If it's really not leaking... and this is just residual oil. Where the heck is all this residual oil sitting at and how do I clean it off? I pulled the fuel filter yesterday and it's pretty darn shiny down in the V after all the washing.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here's the long story on how I got to this point:

Have had occasional (small) drips and frequent bad smells for months. In April, the Olathe KS dealership's "express lube" folks wrote it up for "a leaking pinion seal". When I went back to their "main shop", was told... no it's actually a leaking oil sensor.

They replaced the oil sensor. The drips and smells continued to get worse. In May, I went back in and told them about it and said I was concerned that either the Turbo or DPF might have an issue. In response, I was told "they listened to the Turbo and it sounds fine."

I didn't know about the intake hose, swirl motor, etc., stuff then...

Intended to take it to a different dealership in another town, but life got in the way and I hadn't done it yet.

Sept 14th went into Olathe dealership for an oil change and hoping they'd have some idea about the leaking. Instead I got back a total mess. Apparently they overfilled it and put the cap on wrong. When I stopped for fuel, had oil puddles all over the place.

Immediately called the dealership (& took a bunch of photos), they suggested I put some oil in it (whatever kind I could find) and bring it back in the next day. Now I was stuck... none of the other dealerships wanted to get involved in Olathe's mess. So I topped it off and drove back in the morning.

By the time I get back to the dealership (Sept 15th am), I've researched about this engine's turbo intake, swirl motor, and general all around bad reaction to being overfilled with oil. So I insist the dealership do what ever it takes to get this engine clean enough that we'll know right away if any subsequent appearance of oil is a leak or not.

The tried to return the Jeep to me, and I refused because I could still wipe oil off the bottom of the engine block. This went on all day... ... and finally Rod Hill (their service manager) appears, apologizes a lot, and then tries to explain how they don't have the means to wash the engine.

Finally, I give up and leave with the intentions to either buy a Ford on the way home or go to a different dealership. Trade-In value really sucks with an obvious leak. So I called Jeep customer care.

Naturally they insisted I take it back to the Olathe dealership and have them clean up their mess. Went back, got a rental/loaner. It didn't go well. They dealership told Jeep corp that I left happy, but I still had an engine making puddles in my garage.

Figuring that Jeep corp wasn't going to come up with a solution very quickly... I decided to try another tactic.

Armed with details about the swirl motor, turbo intake, etc., and a collection of photos of the engine (and Merlintec's swirl/intake photos).... I returned to the dealership Friday Sept 24th and talked myself blue in the face until management finally brought a Sprinter CRD mechanic into the conversation.

That mechanic looked at a photo of the engine bottom and the turbo intake and promptly told the manager (a guy named Gary... Rod Hill was missing) that this engine needs to be removed and have the swirl motor replaced and it's rear main seal replaced.

Finally... Progress. I made an appointment. Took the Jeep back in Monday Sept 20th and got a rental (under Ext Warranty coverage) from the dealer's onsite Enterprise rental. Chevy Silverado this time, they don't rent Chrysler products at this location.

Got a surprise call from Gary Wed AM. I still hadn't been able to to get in touch with Rod Hill since the first time I met him... and the Jeep Customer Care folks hadn't been able to contact him either. Anyway... Gary tells me, "Great news, your Jeeps ready for you to pick up and it didn't have a leak."

Sure enough... they ignored the mechanic and detoured down the "Your Gonna Have to Prove an Oil Leak with a Leak Dye Test path" before they'd do anything further. They put ONE OUNCE of dye in the engine and drove exactly 10 miles (I wrote down the mileage before and after this visit).

By the time I got back to the office parking lot, I had more oil on the bottom again. So on the way home, I but an UV light and 3 ounce of dye. I checked for any sign of dye at the leak, the oil cap, and the oil dip stick prior and couldn't see anything... so that's when I added the additional three ounces.

The next conversation with Jeep was quite different. They practically begged me to take it anywhere else. They actually set up the next appointment at a different dealership for me.

Friday Oct 1st I took it into another dealership. Still no external sign of dye, but they agreed to order a new intake hose and to replace the PVC valve and CCV hose. We could see the dye in those and a lot of oil is running thru the PCV Valve. They also washed the engine pretty thoroughly. Knowing they would be able to replace parts on a Friday and would likely call me to come get it, I waited around and I was present for most all of this diagnosticing and washing.

So now I'm waiting on the parts to come in. I've got an engine that looks shiny clean on top and in the V, but still has oil appearing on the bottom anytime you drive it.

I spent most of the weekend washing and trying to find this leak. Still no dye in the oil that appears. Have had the dye in for 450+ miles now. Have also added three more ounces of TracerUV thinking the other stuff might not be up to surviving the trip through a diesel engine.

I've uploaded some pics prior to cleaning things up. The intake hose is pretty typical of what others have experienced. The bottom of the engine between the oil pan and the transmission housing's inspection port is where the oil continues to present. The dealerships would have me believe it's flowing down from the drain channels in the V... but it's not showing on the sides of the engine in that path. Which is why I'm still inclined to believe the leaking rear main... despite the lack of dye.

I understand the dealers don't stock parts for these. And I understand the need to do some diagnosis before throwing parts and labor at problem. But the way the service department at "Olathe Dodge Jeep Chrysler" handled this situation really twists my shorts. At least the other dealership seems to be making an effort.

Right now I'd really love to figure out how to either confirm a leak, or clean all of this residual oil.

oily-underside.jpg   oily-skid-cover.jpg   bad-intake-hose.jpg  
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Unread 10-05-2010, 01:37 AM   #2
kreso
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What kind of oil filter they used. If not original, there may be a O-ring problem on oil filter cap. Check that.
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Unread 10-05-2010, 08:47 AM   #3
suzieque
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I recall reading a post about a leaky seal on the oil cooler on another CRD. The oil cooler sits in the V of the engine, under the fuel filter I think.

Its weird that the die doesn't show up in the leaking oil. Perhaps the leak is actually diesel fuel and not from the crankcase?

I'm a clean freak and I always want to wash the engine, but I'm scared something will break down. Was your engine washed top and bottom?
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Unread 10-05-2010, 03:36 PM   #4
merlinTec
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I used to see this every day in that area and always it's from the drain tube of the V You need to fit the modified pipe and retry. I have never fitted a rear main on this engine. Pop out the rubber plug as see if you can see oil on the inside of the box I bet you don't.
Oil cooler as posted above is possible but they really make a mess when they leak.
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Unread 10-05-2010, 11:49 PM   #5
crd_yarp
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kreso: not an oil filter o-ring issue. wish it was that simple.
susieque: the oil on engine bottom is darker/sootier, but definitely oil.

merlintec: intake hose and other parts are on order. i've attached a fresher photo of the inspection plug area. a little messy in there, but seems oil may be working in through the little "u-shaped" notch in front of plug and/or around the plug.

i'm stymied until parts come in... no more time for washing and guessing.

When you've fixed other crd intake/swirl/etc issues, have you been able to clean the engine and end the drips in one shot? or have you also experienced residual dripping/seeping for an extended period after the repair?

Guess what I'm really asking is... How quickly will I know whether this 2nd dealer has fixed it?
wk_inspection-plug.jpg  
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Unread 10-06-2010, 01:19 PM   #6
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Dealer #2 just called. Parts are in. Will install tomorrow. Maybe one more good washing & the drips/smells will be gone.
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Unread 10-06-2010, 01:34 PM   #7
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Hi
No I would say it's running down the side. But yes it can take time to clear as it collects in the V
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Unread 10-06-2010, 02:40 PM   #8
suzieque
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so the parts you are getting is the new intake tube? if so, I wouldn't want all that oil dumping down my intake, I'd add a catch can solution.
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Unread 10-10-2010, 09:53 PM   #9
crd_yarp
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No real progress to report. Dealer #2 replaced intake hose, with new model, and PCV valve Thurs Oct 7th.

Left dealership, & went thru car wash... then stopped to get engine cleaner and simple green. Home garage has outlet from 80 gallon water heater @ 140F. The engine got a thorough 2 hour cleaning (top, bottom, sideways... it was shiny again).

Went for a drive that evening. When I returned, I finally found the "from the V" drainage path along the (US) driver's side of the engine, slightly behind the starter (photo attached). Also found a vantage point directly above the turbo where I could view fresh oil near the rear-bottom of the oil cooler (photo attached).

Saturday, Oct 9th, I repeated the wash down process... for four hours (it was a nice day out)... specifically monitoring that overhead view until I could only see a slight bit of brown, baked on residue. Another drive rendered the same result... fresh wet oil down the engine block and dripping. (Tried to trade it off at a Jeep dealership, but they didn't want it.)

Back on Sept 28th (at 60,540 miles) I changed the oil myself... partially to verify it ain't that hard... and mostly to verify it got refilled to correct level.

Sunday, Oct 10, I spent the morning doing another oil change (at 61,701 miles). I very carefully collected all of the oil (including the filter drippings), and only recovered 7.5 quarts. Also added 3 ounces of "Tracer UV" for diesel engines. Wiped all of the oil from the starter on down, and went for my normal Sunday drive. That's 1,161 miles and 2.5 quarts of oil leaked down the block.

Returned home this evening (at 61,901 miles) and the bottom of the engine is a filthy mess. The dye is not appearing. 18.3 MPG for a drive that used to average 24 to 25.

Won't bother with washing it anymore. Will call dealer #2 again in the morning.

On the up side... found local Freightliner dealer with this engine in some of their trucks... & their parts dept (open on weekend) has Mobile 1 5W40 ESP MB229.51 at $6.52 per quart.
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Unread 10-10-2010, 10:07 PM   #10
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I've been told that there is a sensor for the Swirl Motor. Does anyone know if that sensor is based on a "dead or alive" type measurement for just the swirl motor? Or if there are actually multiple sensors monitoring that each individual flap in the system is moving appropriately? Or if it's based on something else?

Does anyone know of an OBD PID (code) for this sensor(s)? or any PID(s) that might give some insight as to whether the Swirl Motor is still doing it's job?
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Unread 10-11-2010, 11:45 AM   #11
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from what I've read about swirl motor issues, if yours had failed the jeep goes into limp mode and you'd have a hard time going over 30mph. a swirl motor failure does throw a code when it fails, I can't recall the exact code now, do a search on the word "swirl" in this forum and read some of the threads.
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Unread 10-11-2010, 12:58 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzieque View Post
swirl motor failure does throw a code when it fails, i can't recall the exact code now

p2015
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Unread 10-11-2010, 02:02 PM   #13
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or P1270
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Unread 10-11-2010, 06:52 PM   #14
crd_yarp
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re swirl motor codes... actually was looking for a PID to query (scanguage, golink/dashcommander, etc.,) (Yeah, I've read thru all of the swirl motor threads on here, the 300c forums, the assuie forums, etc... even showed 'em to both dealers.

That question is moot now. Visited local Freightliner and Mercedes today. The sensor response on these swirl motors (and egr valve too) is just a dead-or-alive type response. It's not capable of confirming the position or movement of the individual valves. The Pxxxx code will inform you when the motor fails to operate; however, the sensor can't provide the sort of information that enables detection of valve fouling prior to total failure.

Both Freightliner & Mercedes agree continued oil dripping and 18-19 MPG Highway indicate problems. Both Jeep dealers think 18-19 MPG is amazing, and claim the oil has to be residual from the V.

I've tried a PDF service manual and a CD-ROM/HTML service manual to understand this myself, but neither covered this engine. Also have a PDF parts catalog which omits majors components. I've a DVD service manual ordered, it's supposed to be the entire 2007 product line DVD with the CRD engine covered under the "WH" section [?]. Jeep might be the only company in America whose documentation is worse than John Deere's.

Dealer #2 wants to re-wash it Wed morning.

I have to decide whether to (a) continue asking Jeep for authorization to get warranty work at Mercedes (the warranty rules say they have to pre-authorize it, or they won't reimburse), (b) go out-of-pocket and take it to Mercedes myself, or (c) just take a loss and trade out of it.

As for the bypass filter recommendation... if I still have this vehicle when the warranty work is resolved, then I'll install a Racor CCV4500. But I'm not taking on that project until these other issues are resolved.
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Unread 10-11-2010, 10:05 PM   #15
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CRD oil leak, found the dye... with an 80W blacklight.

Eureka! Found the dye.

Checked the bottom again with the little handheld black light and could see the dark green indication of dye in a large drop of oil dangling near the inspection plug.

Went and got a proper 80 Watt fixture. It lit things up like a neon christmas tree. Also tried a 20W blacklight; it showed the dye better than the handheld, but not nearly as well as the larger 80W.

The weaker the blacklight, the darker the dye color will appear. And the dye appears much more convincingly when it's in a thicker layer of oil.

I'll take this 80W black light to the dealership Wed. LOL.

~~~~~~~~~~~
Here's side photo I meant to post earlier... for anyone else try to figure out this drain path from the V. This area is on the battery/oil-filter side where the "upper oil pan" segment meets the engine block, near the starter.

And an overhead view down into V... I've washed this area until shiny, and 20 miles later the oil returns.
oil-dripping-v.jpg   oil-view-above-v.jpg  
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recent diesels: '05 Jeep KJ 2.8 CRD 124,000 miles, Yanmar 27.
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