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Unread 06-03-2013, 04:40 PM   #46
breckman99
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tleeming,

Thankfully I had some 4.7k Ohm resistors laying around and just placed one in the connector and taped it off for now. I had already rerouted the crankcase ventilation in front of the passenger wheel well in an attempt to prevent this, but after 50K it was already too late.

So today I put in the new tensioner. The rattle sound remains.

Just in case someone in the future needs to change it here are some photos:

Here you can see the airbox removed as well as the coolant reservoir moved back to access the bolt:


Here is the tensioner head. Notice the oil dipstick is in the way, you will have to loosen the top retaining bolt and move it out of the way to pull the tensioner out.



Be careful with this when moving things around, it is the pressure differential sensor for the diesel particulate filter:



A better view of the position of the tensioner with a socket and short extension:



Overall the job was not too bad, about 40 minutes. Torque for the tensioner is 59 ft lbs according to the above instruction.


As for the rattle, I'm still trying to figure out what I am going to do. The sound did not change at all after replacing the tensioner. When I was talking to the Mercedes parts guys they stated that they had not heard of this happening before. I did not get a chance to stick anything down the oil orifice, but either way its looking like the engine will have to come apart. I've seen some used OM642 engines in scrap yards around here, it might be easier to swap the engine than to pull the heads and fix this problem... only issue is the price looks to be between 5 - 15k for one

tleeming,

Let me know what you hear, are you still going for the second opinion? As soon as I learn anything more I'll post here.

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Unread 06-03-2013, 05:01 PM   #47
suzieque
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Just a thought, do you want to try removing the serpentine belt and confirming the rattle is not the bearing as per the TSB?
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Unread 06-03-2013, 08:21 PM   #48
breckman99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzieque View Post
Just a thought, do you want to try removing the serpentine belt and confirming the rattle is not the bearing as per the TSB?
suzieque,

That is definitely worth a try. I'm headed back out to listen to it with the stethoscope for awhile, I'll let you know what I hear.
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Unread 06-07-2013, 10:49 AM   #49
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I apologize for the delay, I have been busy this week. I spent about 30 minutes under the hood with the stethoscope while my friend operated the fuel pedal. I'm now fairly certain that the sound is coming from the CP3 pump and being transmitted to the engine. I'm going to go down to the Bosch injection service center to have them take a look at the pump in the next week to know for sure and to know whether it is anything that may require a pump rebuild.
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Unread 06-07-2013, 07:16 PM   #50
breckman99
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Apparently this may be a known issue with other diesels equipped with Bosch CP3 pumps. I'm not sure if the CP3 pump as implemented on the MB engines can be adjusted in relation to the other engine components like this Dodge thread is talking about, but I'll be pulling it this weekend to find out:

http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/3r...g-results.html

I'll post more as the fun progresses.
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Unread 06-07-2013, 07:34 PM   #51
jediknight
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...but hold on here.

I just read your link from this RAM forum.
With our jeep its a different issue. The jeeps are common rail so i dont think the timing of the cp3 pump is a big issue here as it only provides high pressure to a common rail. Injectors are electronicaly timed thou (when, quantity, micro-seconds, frequency...)
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Unread 06-07-2013, 09:32 PM   #52
breckman99
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jediknight

You are correct in there is no specific timing setting required for the CP3 pump. The issue as I understand it from the Cummins forums is that if the CP3 pump is aligned in a certain way with the engine / injection cycle there is some kind of resonant frequency or return pressure which causes a gear to loose mesh and rattle. On the Cummins engine the injection pumps are bolted to a gear with a tapered keyless shaft so realignment to a different position in the engine cycle is unlimited in range. I could not find the WK CRD manual section 14 detailing the fuel system but I did find some pictures of a 2.7 CRD CP3 pump that showed a slotted drive nub (no idea what that type of drive interface is actually called) so ours may be similar. My plan is to remove the pump and reorient the CP3 pump shaft 180 degrees from the current position to see if it resolves this mystery rattle if it is the slot-nub type, and 90 degrees if it is a type with unlimited remounting range.

Anybody have a good copy of the fuel system section of the CRD manual?
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Unread 06-08-2013, 10:29 AM   #53
breckman99
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This morning I had a chance to remove the CP3 pump. It is very easy; I was able to unhook the return fuel hose, the fuel rail pressure line, and the 3 mounting bolts to pull the pump away from the engine enough to rotate the shaft. The pump is gear driven, so unlimited mounting position relative to the engine rotation is possible. I twisted the gear a bit and put it back together.

I just took the Jeep for a spin and the sound remains. I'm headed back out to twist the gear a bit more to see if anything changes. I'll report back shortly
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Unread 06-08-2013, 11:20 AM   #54
suzieque
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Thanks for posting back.

I wonder if the fact the noise is only heard at certain rpm tells us something about the source of the problem versus the noise occurring at all rpm.
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Unread 06-08-2013, 01:26 PM   #55
breckman99
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This time around I only turned the gear around 1/4 of a revolution like the other forum mentions. The sound is less, but now has a pronounced tap at idle that disappears as engine accelerates to 1100 RPM and returns as previously heard.

I'm going to see what Central Motive Power thinks about the noise next week. I have used them in the past for a p-7100 rebuild and it was delivered with perfection. If the noise is OK I can totally live with it. With the forces that are occurring in that pump I'm sure that noise is a common byproduct.

EDIT: http://www.yildiz.edu.tr/~sandalci/d...AKTraining.pdf <-- A good overview on the operation of these type of pumps and fuel systems

Here are some photos and videos of today's research:


In case the hosted photos below become unavailable here is the information from the CP3 pump tags for future reference:

One tag is as follows:

BOSCH

07-1-14 04 01924

0445010135

CR/CP3S3/L90/20-8911S

Mercedes Symbol followed by: A 642 070 03 01
PH0012

Made in Czech Republic



Another tag with a barcode along the top has the following characters:
<BARCODE>
A6420105845__ 642980 4 0372307 4

F022

06.02.2007
A 642 010 58 45

N M30




Here is a picture of the CP3 pump gear exposed. Notice that I left the electrical connections as well as the fuel supply line attached as they have enough play to rotate the pump for access to rotate the gear. At this time I also cleaned and lubricated the sealing surfaces.



Tools I used:



Anti seize compound is a good idea on the threads going back in the aluminum head.
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Unread 06-08-2013, 01:34 PM   #56
breckman99
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Videos taken:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8mId...ature=youtu.be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L40Ke...ature=youtu.be

As you can see the rattle at high RPM is much quieter however there is now a idle tick from the same area.
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Unread 06-08-2013, 07:22 PM   #57
jediknight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by breckman99
This time around I only turned the gear around 1/4 of a revolution like the other forum mentions. The sound is less, but now has a pronounced tap at idle that disappears as engine accelerates to 1100 RPM and returns as previously heard.

I'm going to see what Central Motive Power thinks about the noise next week. I have used them in the past for a p-7100 rebuild and it was delivered with perfection. If the noise is OK I can totally live with it. With the forces that are occurring in that pump I'm sure that noise is a common byproduct.

EDIT: www.yildiz.edu.tr/~sandalci/dersnotu/AKTraining.pdf <-- A good overview on the operation of these type of pumps and fuel systems

Here are some photos and videos of today's research:

In case the hosted photos below become unavailable here is the information from the CP3 pump tags for future reference:

One tag is as follows:

BOSCH

07-1-14 04 01924

0445010135

CR/CP3S3/L90/20-8911S

Mercedes Symbol followed by: A 642 070 03 01
PH0012

Made in Czech Republic



Another tag with a barcode along the top has the following characters:
<BARCODE>
A6420105845__ 642980 4 0372307 4

F022

06.02.2007
A 642 010 58 45

N M30



Here is a picture of the CP3 pump gear exposed. Notice that I left the electrical connections as well as the fuel supply line attached as they have enough play to rotate the pump for access to rotate the gear. At this time I also cleaned and lubricated the sealing surfaces.



Tools I used:



Anti seize compound is a good idea on the threads going back in the aluminum head.
I think that noise is normal mate.

Page 15 and 16 of the pdf you posted is explaning how the metering control valve is working (when it enerigized and when its not). Considering where the noise is coming from, I would say that this is normal and this caused by the quantity control valve energizing (in the pdf they call it the metering valve) and switching off at certain RPM. I think your noise is not big issue. Mine does it too... I've notice it when I went to a fast food restaurant drive throu (not to mention a name here) and lightly played with the pedal.

There's 3 key electronic device on this crd high pressure delivery system.
The quantity control valve;
The fuel rail solenoid; and
The fuel rail pressure sensor.

I think that noise is from the quantity control valve energizing and de-energizing itself at certain rpm and it's normal.
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Unread 06-10-2013, 01:03 AM   #58
breckman99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jediknight View Post
I think that noise is normal mate.

Page 15 and 16 of the pdf you posted is explaning how the metering control valve is working (when it enerigized and when its not). Considering where the noise is coming from, I would say that this is normal and this caused by the quantity control valve energizing (in the pdf they call it the metering valve) and switching off at certain RPM. I think your noise is not big issue. Mine does it too... I've notice it when I went to a fast food restaurant drive throu (not to mention a name here) and lightly played with the pedal.

There's 3 key electronic device on this crd high pressure delivery system.
The quantity control valve;
The fuel rail solenoid; and
The fuel rail pressure sensor.

I think that noise is from the quantity control valve energizing and de-energizing itself at certain rpm and it's normal.

I believe you may be right. I just made a 300 mile trip with the pump in the new position and I can barely hear the ticking, I really have to listen for it when I've pulled into my garage and fluctuating the accelerator.

Another benefit of the pump gear reclock is the jeep sounds different overall, more of a smooth sound, it's hard to describe. I think I'll just leave it like this and when the pump gets really noisy again think about rebuilding it, for now it all seems like it will be fine for many more miles.

tleeming,

I'd be interested to know if adjusting your pump gear resolves your noise too. I am pretty confident at this point that the chain is not the cause of this rattle, the CP3 pump is. Now that I know how far back the fuel pump shaft reaches back to interface with the cam gear the original suspicion of timing chain/cam issues makes total sense. Have you had anyone look at yours yet?
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Unread 06-10-2013, 10:00 AM   #59
suzieque
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the guys in the UK are swearing by the addition of TC-W3 low ash Two Stroke Oil to make the CRD much quieter, I have not tested it myself.

http://www.300cforums.com/forums/eur...el-engine.html
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Unread 06-10-2013, 10:37 AM   #60
LJS8510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzieque View Post
the guys in the UK are swearing by the addition of TC-W3 low ash Two Stroke Oil to make the CRD much quieter, I have not tested it myself.

http://www.300cforums.com/forums/eur...el-engine.html
interesting read, has anyone tried this here.
You should make this a new thread

i also saw this one on diesels in general
http://www.powerstroke.org/forum/99-...-scared-2.html
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