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Unread 03-21-2011, 03:50 PM   #646
havoc64
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Did I mention names? No, did I call anyone Stupid? No, do I have anything in my signature that calls anyone a ******bag? No.

Don't assume anything, I just said that there are a lot of post on here with comments on how people are doing it "Wrong"

Let me do a check see on Amazon to see if there's a book written called "How to Build a LCOG Rig"...hmm Nope.

Everything is a matter of perspective. Most people refer to the COG of a Rig to be the point where the weight of the Rig is located. When a jeep is lifted that center of gravity is raised. Unless you have the $$ to widen and lengthen your wheelbase, you are going to raise that center point of average weight. In an off camber position, you are going to increase your roll over point.

Now seeing as most Jeep enthusiast want to put bigger tires on their rigs, the most common way to do this is to put lifts on their jeeps. When they buy a jeep, they buy 4x4 mags and check out the two or three jeep parts catalogs..what do they see? Lifts.

Several members of this forum and several editors and writers of the various off road magazines talk about putting on the largest tires possible with the minimal amount of lift as keeping the Center of Gravity as low as possible. They don't make sly little comments or innuendos.

My rig with 32 inch tires and 2 inches of lift is going to have a Lower Center of Gravity than the same jeep with 4.5 inches of lift and 35 inch tires. Using your train of thought one could say the same thing for everyone lifting their jeeps, that they are doing it wrong if they don't widen and lengthen their wheelbases.

I have no problem with comments, nor well meaning suggestions or opinions. I just don't think that just because you have LCOG Nazi on your title, it gives you or anyone the right to decide whether or not anyone's rig can be called LCOG or not.

Jeepaholic's website has a GREAT Article on how to calculate the CG of any wheeled vehicle.
http://www.jeepaholics.com/tech/cog/#_Toc535118725

I enjoy everyone's post, I just get tired of the "Experts" post that claims their way of thinking is the correct one and everyone else's ideas, theories and experiences are incorrect. There's an old saying that you can catch more flys with honey than vinegar. Most people can explain their beliefs on LCOG builds without belittling anyone.

And what does pirate have to do with anything posted in this thread?

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Unread 03-21-2011, 04:32 PM   #647
emev0l
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Quote:
Originally Posted by havoc64 View Post
Did I mention names? No, did I call anyone Stupid? No, do I have anything in my signature that calls anyone a ******bag? No.

Don't assume anything, I just said that there are a lot of post on here with comments on how people are doing it "Wrong"

Let me do a check see on Amazon to see if there's a book written called "How to Build a LCOG Rig"...hmm Nope.

Everything is a matter of perspective. Most people refer to the COG of a Rig to be the point where the weight of the Rig is located. When a jeep is lifted that center of gravity is raised. Unless you have the $$ to widen and lengthen your wheelbase, you are going to raise that center point of average weight. In an off camber position, you are going to increase your roll over point.

Now seeing as most Jeep enthusiast want to put bigger tires on their rigs, the most common way to do this is to put lifts on their jeeps. When they buy a jeep, they buy 4x4 mags and check out the two or three jeep parts catalogs..what do they see? Lifts.

Several members of this forum and several editors and writers of the various off road magazines talk about putting on the largest tires possible with the minimal amount of lift as keeping the Center of Gravity as low as possible. They don't make sly little comments or innuendos.

My rig with 32 inch tires and 2 inches of lift is going to have a Lower Center of Gravity than the same jeep with 4.5 inches of lift and 35 inch tires. Using your train of thought one could say the same thing for everyone lifting their jeeps, that they are doing it wrong if they don't widen and lengthen their wheelbases.

I have no problem with comments, nor well meaning suggestions or opinions. I just don't think that just because you have LCOG Nazi on your title, it gives you or anyone the right to decide whether or not anyone's rig can be called LCOG or not.

Jeepaholic's website has a GREAT Article on how to calculate the CG of any wheeled vehicle.
http://www.jeepaholics.com/tech/cog/#_Toc535118725

I enjoy everyone's post, I just get tired of the "Experts" post that claims their way of thinking is the correct one and everyone else's ideas, theories and experiences are incorrect. There's an old saying that you can catch more flys with honey than vinegar. Most people can explain their beliefs on LCOG builds without belittling anyone.

And what does pirate have to do with anything posted in this thread?

I'm assuming your changing from 32's to 35's because you want the 1.5" of clearance it gives you.

I'm also assuming your going to add Metalcloak fenders so you can flex your tires into the fenders. (I like Metalcloak fenders a lot btw, nice choice)

I'm curious as to what your current limiting factor for up travel and down travel are?

Neither of those modifications will improve your down travel, and the Metalcloak fenders will only help you gain up travel and flex better if your current fenders are your limiting factor for up travel.

What brand and length shocks are you currently running?
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Unread 03-21-2011, 05:00 PM   #648
terrible
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un-subscribed. Bunch of whiners.
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Unread 03-21-2011, 06:29 PM   #649
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The point of lcog is more capability without all the lift. Period. It's about gaining capability. Not restricting it. Would you argue that?

Ok, so following that train of thought, putting bigger tires on with a lower lift increases capability in some areas correct? You gain clearance to stop dragging on **** and tire size to help get over bigger rocks that would swallow smaller tires. My whole point is why stop there? Why limit flex by bumpstopping the hell out of your suspension, you are detracting from the capability you were just trying to gain. If you don't want aftermarket fenders, or to modify your stock ones fine. You do see how you are limiting yourself right? I'm not making it up. That's how it works. Nothing in this hobby comes free. But if you want to do some reading, there are some great builds in the hardcore tech section of pirate with a plethora of information on building an lcog rig.

And no, there is no lcog handbook, but there are a lot of things that people have been doing for years to stretch a buck and get performance on the trails. Some mods are expensive, that's how it works. I don't make the rules or set the prices, but when someone wants to play the "I'm lcog" game, it annoys me when they aren't taking any of the other important parts of the build into account. It gives those of us trying to do it well a bad rap. It's the same as someone saying "I'm built for 40's" and is running them on thier stock tj axles. Yeah they gained some benefits of running 40's, but they don't have the wheelbase for it, the drivetrain, or any of the other mods that go hand in hand with it. Seeing people building "lcog" uneducated, but still calling it that gives me the same feeling as when some dude pulls up next to you on 8" of lift and 35's because "that's what he needed to get them to fit".

Anyways, if you don't get it after that, you aren't going to. I'm out. Sorry for wasting the precious Internet.
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Hornblasters Shocker S4 horn set with some extras $210 shipped. (It is not OBA, just an accessory for OBA)

"LCOG" isn't cheap and it certainly isn't easy. If you think so, you are doing it wrong. If you aren't willing to put in the effort, don't label your build "LCOG". You are just a cheap ******bag.

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Unread 03-21-2011, 06:36 PM   #650
julietkilo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by havoc64 View Post
Hey julietkilo,

I retired from the AF in '04. Was a Gunner on Buffs (B-52 G/H) until they canned us in '91. I went to Photo after that. Got a lot of hours in a 130 while stationed at Kadena.

How many years you got in?
I have 8 years in... C-130 Loadmaster for half of them, Comm for the other half, retrained 4 years ago to my current flying Job and never looked back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by havoc64 View Post
I have no problem with comments, nor well meaning suggestions or opinions. I just don't think that just because you have LCOG Nazi on your title, it gives you or anyone the right to decide whether or not anyone's rig can be called LCOG or not.

Jeepaholic's website has a GREAT Article on how to calculate the CG of any wheeled vehicle.
http://www.jeepaholics.com/tech/cog/#_Toc535118725

I enjoy everyone's post, I just get tired of the "Experts" post that claims their way of thinking is the correct one and everyone else's ideas, theories and experiences are incorrect. There's an old saying that you can catch more flys with honey than vinegar. Most people can explain their beliefs on LCOG builds without belittling anyone.
I think this is my 6th or 7th forum I have ever been on and everywhere you go there is someone that spends a huge amount of time on here and racks up thousands of posts in a few years. Some rack them up helping others and other rack them up for "status". Not that that means anything but a number. You decide who is who... ask Jerry Bransford he has been around longer than I have.

As for figuring CG of vehicles that is AWESOME. I do this everyday for my Job. I balance HUMVEE's, Duce and a half's, and other vehicles on my plane. Never thought of applying it to my own Jeep. I ahve some FANCY calculators from Lockheed Martin just for that.

LOL come to think of it I did CG on an old Jeep in Pakistan last year during the flood relief. I took a Pak Col. and his Jeep out of a flood zone. It was a stock CJ,
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[SIZE="1"][COLOR="Red"][B]2003 Flame Red Rubicon [/B][/COLOR][URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f22/rubired-armored-lcog-tumtukd-daily-driven-pictorial-1285548/"]RubiRed Build Thread[/URL]
tummytukd on 35's

Air Force Loadmaster/Air Force Jeep Club [B]#12[/B]
[B][URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f7/i-am-petersens-4wheel-off-road-magazine-pics-526488/"]Me in Petersons 4-Wheel Off-Road Magazine[/URL]
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Unread 03-21-2011, 08:46 PM   #651
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^^Post count means nothing.

I read your bit in Petersons on my last deployment.

Since you are a loadmaster, what's the best, most accurate way (and accessible) to weigh a Jeep at the corners? I've read the Jeepaholics site before, but getting a good accurate measurement is pretty hard to do. And to me, there's really no point in messing with it if you aren't using good numbers. It's like using the link calculators and stuff, if you don't know your stats, it's garbage in... garbage out.


On a side note, I went through Kadena a few times. I was stationed in Yokosuka for 4 years. My unit is about ready to head over to help with the relief efforts. We'll see.
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::SELLING HALF OF MY JEEP::

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f33/?uid=152304

Rear Currie 4" coils - 190 shipped. (They've been sitting in the back of my Jeep for mock up but won't work out for me.)

Hornblasters Shocker S4 horn set with some extras $210 shipped. (It is not OBA, just an accessory for OBA)

"LCOG" isn't cheap and it certainly isn't easy. If you think so, you are doing it wrong. If you aren't willing to put in the effort, don't label your build "LCOG". You are just a cheap ******bag.

IndyORV- Dick and fart jokes, titties, throttle, flops, beer, tater balls, and good times.
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Unread 03-21-2011, 09:21 PM   #652
julietkilo
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4 point scale is what we use. I can get one at work but as you said its not easily accessible. I will get back to you on that one. The Jeepforum could easily be called the militaryjeepers forum. Cheers.
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[SIZE="1"][COLOR="Red"][B]2003 Flame Red Rubicon [/B][/COLOR][URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f22/rubired-armored-lcog-tumtukd-daily-driven-pictorial-1285548/"]RubiRed Build Thread[/URL]
tummytukd on 35's

Air Force Loadmaster/Air Force Jeep Club [B]#12[/B]
[B][URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f7/i-am-petersens-4wheel-off-road-magazine-pics-526488/"]Me in Petersons 4-Wheel Off-Road Magazine[/URL]
[/B][/SIZE]
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Unread 03-21-2011, 09:29 PM   #653
havoc64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emev0l

I'm assuming your changing from 32's to 35's because you want the 1.5" of clearance it gives you.

I'm also assuming your going to add Metalcloak fenders so you can flex your tires into the fenders. (I like Metalcloak fenders a lot btw, nice choice)

I'm curious as to what your current limiting factor for up travel and down travel are

Neither of those modifications will improve your down travel, and the Metalcloak fenders will only help you gain up travel and flex better if your current fenders are your limiting factor for up travel.

What brand and length shocks are you currently running?
Yes, the metal cloak fenders are for two reasons, one to be able to go to 35 inch tires, to clear the pumpkins, and two, to prevent the 35 inch tires from eating the stock fenders. I use my rig as both my daily driver and for my hunting rig. We may not have the big rock area like Utah., but we do have a lot of creeks and wooded debris to get over when I am trying to get to a deer. I prefer to drive to the downed deer instead of dragging it by hand..lol.

I do go to the off road parts here, near Manhattan Kansas, but leave the aggressive stuff to the guys with the killer rigs. But I do get out and spot and move rocks for them, that is half the fun.

Right now I have the BDS 2 inch lift with their mated springs. Not too concerned with down travel as the BDS shocks give me plenty for the obstacles I go over.

My CJ had too much lift for the hard top and that big metal tub. With the bigger tires and that lift, I didn't like the top heavy feel, ESP on the 45 MPH windy days here in Kansas...lol, one of the reasons I don't want to lift my TJ too much.

What is your thoughts on limiting the up travel?
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Unread 03-21-2011, 09:42 PM   #654
havoc64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennettj13
The point of lcog is more capability without all the lift. Period. It's about gaining capability. Not restricting it. Would you argue that?

Ok, so following that train of thought, putting bigger tires on with a lower lift increases capability in some areas correct? You gain clearance to stop dragging on **** and tire size to help get over bigger rocks that would swallow smaller tires. My whole point is why stop there? Why limit flex by bumpstopping the hell out of your suspension, you are detracting from the capability you were just trying to gain. If you don't want aftermarket fenders, or to modify your stock ones fine. You do see how you are limiting yourself right? I'm not making it up. That's how it works. Nothing in this hobby comes free. But if you want to do some reading, there are some great builds in the hardcore tech section of pirate with a plethora of information on building an lcog rig.

And no, there is no lcog handbook, but there are a lot of things that people have been doing for years to stretch a buck and get performance on the trails. Some mods are expensive, that's how it works. I don't make the rules or set the prices, but when someone wants to play the "I'm lcog" game, it annoys me when they aren't taking any of the other important parts of the build into account. It gives those of us trying to do it well a bad rap. It's the same as someone saying "I'm built for 40's" and is running them on thier stock tj axles. Yeah they gained some benefits of running 40's, but they don't have the wheelbase for it, the drivetrain, or any of the other mods that go hand in hand with it. Seeing people building "lcog" uneducated, but still calling it that gives me the same feeling as when some dude pulls up next to you on 8" of lift and 35's because "that's what he needed to get them to fit".

Anyways, if you don't get it after that, you aren't going to. I'm out. Sorry for wasting the precious Internet.
Dude,

I never said I don't get what your trying to say, I am only saying that there is a better way in saying it and than degrading what everyone else is doing to their rigs. It is just as insulting as being called a NOOB or having your rig called a Mall Crawler. Not everyone wants to or can afford to build a perfect LCOG rig, or a tummy tuck the correct way, or even do a lifted long arm suspension. Your first paragraph is rock on! I agree 100 percent. It just that not all of us can afford to take our rigs to that extreme. I by no means think in any way that we who only do lower lifts are insulting you guys who go all out, in the contrary, I would say it is a complement. We are envious and want to copy you guys, we just have to go at it a little slower.

I see rigs every day that I am envious of, I watch the videos on this site and on pirate and think, man, those are killer rigs. Then I open my wallet and look at my wife who says..not another mod...lol.

Anyway, let's get this thread back on track, post some pics of your rigs that are running on 35 inch tires with 3 inches or less of lift..
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Unread 03-21-2011, 11:04 PM   #655
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Well I guess I'm really not LCOG.... I'm running 3.5 inches of lift with tube fenders (front and rear) (rear is stretched 1.5 inches) 35's and a tummy tuck... I will admit I need new shocks as they are limiting my down travel.

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Unread 03-21-2011, 11:53 PM   #656
kyle_craig
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My rig probably isn't considered low center of gravity "done right"...YET... For now, yes it has a low center of gravity, but, I am still working toward the "done right" part on a college budget. For the time being, if I break something, I will have to deal with it and fix it as I go...I'm carrying spare parts and expecting failure which is yet to happen (but most likely inevitable). Sure it looks kindof cool (I think), flexes alright, and performs decently for where and how I wheel it. But it could be better. And eventually, it will be better. As finances allow, it will receive more fender clearance, shock relocation with longer travel shocks, axle, brake, and steering upgrades, and a belly up. For the time being I will continue to wheel it and enjoy it as I upgrade.

On a side note, I feel the whole "done right" concept is applicable to all rigs, whether considered to have a low center of gravity or not, and is very important. I also think that most of us have an idea of what is "right" and are doing what we can to work toward that...and not for the approval of random people on some forum but for our own good, so we aren't stuck out in the middle of nowhere in the rocks with a bent tie rod or broken axle shaft.

Anyhoo...Correctly built yet or not, here are some pictures of my "35s on 3" of lift TJ" wheeling in Moab a couple weeks ago.





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Unread 03-22-2011, 06:53 AM   #657
emev0l
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Quote:
Originally Posted by havoc64 View Post
Yes, the metal cloak fenders are for two reasons, one to be able to go to 35 inch tires, to clear the pumpkins, and two, to prevent the 35 inch tires from eating the stock fenders. I use my rig as both my daily driver and for my hunting rig. We may not have the big rock area like Utah., but we do have a lot of creeks and wooded debris to get over when I am trying to get to a deer. I prefer to drive to the downed deer instead of dragging it by hand..lol.

I do go to the off road parts here, near Manhattan Kansas, but leave the aggressive stuff to the guys with the killer rigs. But I do get out and spot and move rocks for them, that is half the fun.

Right now I have the BDS 2 inch lift with their mated springs. Not too concerned with down travel as the BDS shocks give me plenty for the obstacles I go over.

My CJ had too much lift for the hard top and that big metal tub. With the bigger tires and that lift, I didn't like the top heavy feel, ESP on the 45 MPH windy days here in Kansas...lol, one of the reasons I don't want to lift my TJ too much.

What is your thoughts on limiting the up travel?
I'm just curious how much up travel you have left when one of your front tires are fully flexed before the shock bottoms out.

Here's the BDS 5500 Hydro shock specs:

55979 front
Extended Length Collapsed Length
22.92 13.92

55975 rear
Extended Length Collapsed Length
21.70 13.42

Your front collapsed length sounds a little long for 2" of lift, these are stock lenghts:

Front 13"/20.5"
Rear 12.2"/19.2"

I would suggest flexing one of the tires out until you hit bump stop and see how much you have left before your shock bottoms out.

How much bump stop did you add to the front and rear?
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2001 TJ 4.6 Auto 4.5" AEV suspension 35's
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1987 Chevy 1 Ton 12" suspension 44's
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Unread 03-22-2011, 07:12 AM   #658
havoc64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emev0l View Post
I'm just curious how much up travel you have left when one of your front tires are fully flexed before the shock bottoms out.

Here's the BDS 5500 Hydro shock specs:

55979 front
Extended Length Collapsed Length
22.92 13.92

55975 rear
Extended Length Collapsed Length
21.70 13.42

Your front collapsed length sounds a little long for 2" of lift, these are stock lenghts:

Front 13"/20.5"
Rear 12.2"/19.2"

I would suggest flexing one of the tires out until you hit bump stop and see how much you have left before your shock bottoms out.

How much bump stop did you add to the front and rear?
Hmm, Yea I had the guys at a local 4x4 shop install the BDS 2 inch kit which comes with the springs and shocks.

the last time I was on the ramp I was hitting the fenders before I got to the bump stops or the Shock limits. I planned on getting the metal cloaks and then retuning to the Ramp to see how much of bumpstop I'll need to prevent the shocks from Bottoming out.

Thanks for the advice, every bit of info helps.

I'll post some pics when I get the fenders on, will be ordering them this weekend.
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/l ,[____],
l---L -OlllllllO-
()_)-()_)-o-)_)
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Unread 03-22-2011, 07:15 AM   #659
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razorback84 View Post
Well I guess I'm really not LCOG.... I'm running 3.5 inches of lift with tube fenders (front and rear) (rear is stretched 1.5 inches) 35's and a tummy tuck... I will admit I need new shocks as they are limiting my down travel.

YOur rig is sweet! which fenders are those? Did you cut the back fenders any?
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Yellow Jeep Club Member #64
-2004 Wrangler Rubicon-2 Inch BDS Lift-BDS Shocks and Steering Stabilizer-JKS Front Quick Disconnects-Smittybilt XRC Rock Crawler Front Bumper-Smittybilt XRC Rock Crawler Rear Bumper with Tire Swing-Smittybilt XRC-8 Comp Series Winch-MetalCloak Overline Front Fenders and Rockers-Factory Hard Top-Bestop Safari Top with no-Drill Channel-4.0 Straight 6-15" Mickey Thompson Signature Series Classic II Wheels on 35x12.50 Mickey Thompson Baja MTZ's.
- My Yella' 04 Rubicon Build Thread -
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Unread 03-22-2011, 07:38 AM   #660
emev0l
Registered User
2001 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 1,792
Quote:
Originally Posted by havoc64 View Post
Hmm, Yea I had the guys at a local 4x4 shop install the BDS 2 inch kit which comes with the springs and shocks.

the last time I was on the ramp I was hitting the fenders before I got to the bump stops or the Shock limits. I planned on getting the metal cloaks and then retuning to the Ramp to see how much of bumpstop I'll need to prevent the shocks from Bottoming out.

Thanks for the advice, every bit of info helps.

I'll post some pics when I get the fenders on, will be ordering them this weekend.

Well if your tires are hitting the fenders before your shocks are bottoming out then your collapsed length isn't to bad.
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2001 TJ 4.6 Auto 4.5" AEV suspension 35's
2002 TJ 4.0 Manual 3" BDS suspension 33's
1987 Chevy 1 Ton 12" suspension 44's
1970 Cutlass 442 468CID TH400
1999 7.3 Powerstroke
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