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post #106 of 200 Old 06-02-2014, 09:52 AM Thread Starter
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I started (and almost completed) my brake project this weekend. Besides a nasty, rusted master cylinder and brake booster, I noticed when I hit the brakes too hard, the truck would die (vacuum leak). Since the problem progressively became worse, I decided to upgrade the system by purchasing a master cylinder and dual diaphragm brake booster. I had trouble finding what I wanted locally and after talking to Dr. Marneaus, decided to order the set from RockAuto.com. I purchased 501014 (50-1014) which is an A-1 CARDONE product, though they don't list it on their website.

The install went very well, which I imagine soaking everything in Liquid Wrench for the past week helped. Unfortunately, I didn't get many pictures as I didn't want to cover my phone in brake fluid. In short, here's what I did:

1. Bench bleed the master cylinder. *See notes below
2. GENTLY remove the lines from the old master cylinder. You don't want to break these. I removed one at a time and inserted a plug that came with the new master cylinder into the brake line hole in the old master cylinder to stop the flow of fluid.
3. Remove the vacuum hose to the brake booster.
4. Inside the vehicle, remove the rod that's hooked to the brake pedal and the 4 bolts holding the booster on.
5. Remove the entire fixture from the vehicle.
6. Remove the bracket from the old brake booster and install on the new brake booster. I used blue Loctite to prevent these bolts from backing out.
7. Install the brake booster in the vehicle. It helps to start the nuts on the bolts inside the vehicle, attach the rod to the brake pedal, then tighten down the 4 nuts.
8. Attach the master cylinder to the brake booster.
9. Remove the bench bleed plugs/lines one at a time and reattach the brake lines.
10. Bleed the brakes starting at the furthest point and working forward. In the case of our vehicles, you'd bleed RR, RL, FR, FL.

Bracket on old brake booster:







Installed in vehicle:







You'll notice in the above pictures that I have plenty of room with the dual diaphragm booster and master cylinder installed. You'll also notice that it looks much better compared to a rusted up beast!

Before:



I'm not sure if this would have been possible without a bench vise. A set of flare wrenches are helpful as well. Anyone considering doing this project - use this as an excuse to buy new tools!



OK, about the note from Step 1. This master cylinder came with crap-tastic™ plastic plugs used for bench bleeding. Here's what A1 CARDONE has to say about them:

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.cardone.com/tech-help/brakes/how-it-works-and-best-practices/master-cylinder-bench-bleeding-procedure

In the past, CARDONE supplied a bleeder kit that consisted of plugs with holes. Tubes pressed on to the holes in order to bench bleed the master cylinder. Although this kit was successful when used properly, it was not the best process. One of our goals in Technical Services is to improve every process.

We found a better way.

The new bleeder kit comes with solid plugs to bench bleed the replacement unit.
They literally bold "We found a better way." on their website. The problem is, their auto correct mistook 'cheaper' with 'better'. Keep in mind, these plugs are plastic.

This is the first time I've ever performed a bench bleed. I thought "cool, lets give this a whirl". I set everything up as per the directions and started pumping away. After a couple hundred pumps, I found the piston travel was extremely short (as it should be) yet bubbles were still present. I believe these 'better' plugs were not sealing thus allowing air to pull into the master cylinder when the piston traveled back to its resting position. Since I pumped the crap out it, I decided to install it since 'surely I'm good'. With everything installed, I started to bleed the brakes. I wanted all the air out, all the old fluid out, and all of the new DOT 4 running through the system. Rear Right, sweet. Rear Left, sweet. Front Right - first bleed, sweet. Second bleed - we have no pedal... Lets try the Front Left - nothing.

So, this is where I'm at. The rear will bleed great. The front will only bleed for one pedal throw and it's done. We tried to suck the air out with a Mityvac but didn't have much luck. After rolling around in brake fluid for an hour or two, I decided to call it a day around 3:30 yesterday afternoon. When my father-in-law left at around 7:00, he hopped in the truck and noted we had pressure on the pedal again. Our best guess is that there is air somewhere in the system. I think it's still in the master cylinder. Can anyone advise?

I'm going to pick up some brake line and fittings to bench bleed this properly. I don't really want to take it off again but I don't feel confident enough that all air is evacuated. I will note that the reservoir closest to the firewall was depleting quickly and showing fluid movement when the pedal was pressed down yet the reservoir closest to the front of the vehicle seemed stagnant.

Help!!!


~Chris
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post #107 of 200 Old 06-03-2014, 09:10 AM Thread Starter
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I've done quite a bit of research and think I've narrowed it down to the combination/proportioning valve. I've never messed with these things before but here's what I've gathered...

The valve allows brake fluid pressure to flow to the front and the rear. If it senses too much flow to one or the other, it will close off that side as it sees it as a potential leak. The purpose for this is to allow you to still have [some] brakes if a line were to burst. When this happens, assuming everything is working, your brake light will come on. Last night I verified that my brake light is now on. Since I have no pressure to the front, I'm assuming the switch triggered to shut off the front.

My solution?

I bought some short brake lines and fittings. I'm going to pull the master cylinder and bench bleed it the proper way to ensure all of the following work is not a waste of time.

Next step - If you don't have the special tool used to keep the valve/switch/pain in the *** yet awesome safety feature in place, there are a couple options. I've read that an 8 penny nail with a rounded off tip is the same diameter as the switch plunger. Poking that around in the hole may reset it. I'll consider this method.

The other method seems like it could be more fun. I've read that if you pump up the brakes and really mash them down while cracking open a bleeder valve on the working side of the system, the valve will reset. Hopefully anyone trying this will wear safety goggles. I sure will!

Either way, if you're brake light is functioning as it should, you'll know the valve reset if the light goes off.

Once the valve is reset, if you have the tool to hold it in place, you're set. Bleed the brakes as normal. I've always heard to bleed from the furthest bleeder from the master cylinder to the closest bleeder to the master cylinder:

Right Rear
Left Rear
Right Front
Left Front

Now, the factory service manual from 1976 states to bleed as such:

Left Front
Right Front
Left Rear
Right Rear

This doesn't make sense to me but then again, I'm no master technician. My advice would be to pick your favorite method and give it a try.

OK - That seems easy except for the part where I don't have the tool nor care to buy one. Instead, I'm going to be difficult.

Let's assume the valve has been reset and we're ready to bleed the brakes. Here's what I've read on how to bleed the brakes, including how to fill dry lines, without popping the valve.

GENTLY bleed one front wheel, then one rear wheel. Repeat until you have fluid at all 4 wheels. Once fluid is at all 4 wheels, the valve should have enough compression to allow you to gently bleed all 4 wheels in the proper order. For me, I'll bleed from the furthest wheel to the closest:

Right Rear
Left Rear
Right Front
Left Front

I'm not sure when I'll get a chance to go at it again. I'd like to do it this evening or at least before Friday but we all know how busy life can get, especially with a wife and a 1 year old. Either way, I should know what's what by the end of the weekend (or earlier hopefully). That being said, I'll continue to research and will update this thread and a more dedicated thread (Master Cylinder/Brake System - Trapped Air?) with any news. If anyone has any information, please don't hesitate to chime in!

Sources:

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/br...olved-1797153/

8 Penny Nail 'Tool': http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/br...l#post18246162

1976 FSM on Brakes: http://oljeep.com/gw/76_tsm/Section9.pdf

~Chris
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post #108 of 200 Old 06-13-2014, 09:44 AM Thread Starter
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Update time:

Diagnosis and repair thread: Master Cylinder/Brake System - Trapped Air?

After finding that I probably had a bad master cylinder, I ran to town and picked up a NEW M/C. After bench bleeding, I assembled it to the brake booster and bled all the brakes again. I was pleased to find each corner bled well, especially since the NEW master cylinder still seemed to bench bleed a little funky (perhaps it was the operator, not the M/C). Either way, I was ready for a test drive since the pedal was holding pressure. I immediately noticed how much less pedal was required to stop the vehicle and I was pleasantly surprised to find I can lock up all 4 wheels (not that this is an ideal way to stop a 4,500 lb truck, more just please that it's possible). All in all, my problems/solutions were that the re-manufactured A1 Cardone master cylinder was bad right out of the box AND my proportioning valve/combination valve/metering valve was blocking fluid from the front until it was reset.

I still have an issue with the truck wanting to die when I hit the brakes. It happens much less frequently than before the swap but it still occurs. I'm in the process of narrowing down what's happening but we think we may have it figured out. In lieu of pretending I'm not an idiot, I'll reveal what we think is happening and the extremely simple steps I'll take to hopefully resolve the issue tonight. Please don't throw sticks at me for this...

We think the fuel is sloshing in the bowls when I come to a stop thus starving the vehicle. Why do we think this?

1. The vehicle doesn't die when the brakes are aggressively applied while the vehicle is standing still.
2. I didn't adjust the float level when I installed the carburetor (stupid) and we KNOW the fuel level is quite low via the site plug.

This could also explain why I have a flat spot in my acceleration at higher RPM. I very well could be sucking the bowls dry requiring the carb to use only what is being supplied via the fuel pump.

Solution - Turn off the 'idiot' and adjust the darn floats!

Issue number two that may also play a role in this is the vacuum hoses. We noticed the inside diameter of a couple of the vacuum hoses are a touch too large causing the lines to not seal. One location we tested a line was at the vacuum advance on the distributor. I was not able to build pressure using a hand pump unless the line was clamped to the advance port.

I'll update this thread once I've resolved the issues listed above, hopefully with a final resolution.

Thanks for the help everyone. The advice has been greatly appreciated.


~Chris
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Quote:
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Weird, I didn't realize you could use vomit as coolant.
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post #109 of 200 Old 06-13-2014, 01:09 PM
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Plug the line to the brake booster test drive it carefully without power brakes. If symptom is the same then it's likely the carb float level. If not and it runs fine and doesn't die then it's a bad booster diaphragm.


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post #110 of 200 Old 06-13-2014, 01:35 PM Thread Starter
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Great idea! Fortunately, I'm surrounded by corn, timber, and country roads so I have a perfect, 'safe' test drive area!

~Chris
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Quote:
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Quote:
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Weird, I didn't realize you could use vomit as coolant.
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post #111 of 200 Old 06-17-2014, 08:35 AM Thread Starter
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Final update on the brakes (hopefully)...

I adjusted the floats and installed smaller vacuum lines where necessary and was pleased to find the truck no longer dies when braking. I really believe the floats were set too low and the fuel was sloshing when stopping causing the engine to starve.

Now, I haven't taken the bowls off the carburetor but when adjusting the floats, I found that I could only raise the float height a certain amount before I could no longer tighten the lock screw. With the adjustment nut adjusted out as far as possible and the lock nut tightened, I'm still a little low on the fuel level. Fortunately, it's high enough that if I shake the truck, a little fuel will splash up to the threads. Keep in mind, this is identical for both the primary and secondary fuel bowls. I'll probably leave this alone for now as it's much better than it was but when things slow down a little, I'll need to pull the bowls off and see what's going on.

~Chris
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post #112 of 200 Old 06-17-2014, 09:33 AM Thread Starter
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Something else that came to mind - After messing with things (replaced leaking booster and leaking vacuum lines), I decided to check the timing. I set the idle to about 650, plugged the vacuum advance, and threw the light on the warmed up truck. It had adjusted itself to TDC and was running fine at that. Back in December when I installed the D.U.I. distributor, I had it cranked up to 15 advanced on 87 octane without pinging (http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f57/c...l#post18979161). I figured, since it worked before, I'll try it again. At 15, I had no pinging but felt that the truck was very sluggish in 4th while trying to heavily accelerate. It felt like the clutch was half engaged. I also noted an odd smell, almost slightly like burning rubber.

Since I didn't have time to fiddle with it, I stopped by the house, set it at 10, and took it for another quick spin. It drove much better and didn't have the smell that I noticed before except possibly on one small occurrence.

Does it sound like at 15 I was sparking too soon? What surprises me most is I didn't notice any pinging. On top of that, shouldn't I be able to crank out a little more than 10?

Feel free to throw in comments!

~Chris
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Quote:
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post #113 of 200 Old 06-17-2014, 12:56 PM
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Honestly at 15 it could have been making more power and actually slipping the clutch. Over advance won't typically "create a burning smell" of any kind. If you don't have a tach connect one and test 4th under a load say uphill and see if it is slipping, the tach will rise without a change in vehicle speed. Burnt clutch smells horrid so no mistaking it once you smell it. Smells like a smelter melting scrap metal down or burning brakes. Ping is not alway audible by ear but depending on the curve inside the DUI it may run a ton stronger at 15 initial (base time) than at 10. The higher your altitude also means you can "get away" with more timing since the air is less dense it doesn't raise cylinder pressures as high as it would at say sea level. I would bring it up to 14 and see how it feels. If the advance (mechanical+vacuum) is not set very aggressive it may like more base time. If you have a dial back timing gun you can set it to 36 deg and rev the engine to 2700 rpm make certain not to exceed 38 deg total advance. I find stock 360s ran good around 34-36 total time where Chevys usually like 32-34 all in by 3k


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post #114 of 200 Old 06-17-2014, 01:38 PM Thread Starter
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I have a tach installed but I didn't pay attention to it when I noticed the smell/diminished acceleration. The next chance I get to tinker with it, I'll bump it back up and see what happens. Also, I've heard it's better to run the vac advance off of the manifold as opposed to the carburetor. Is this accurate? I currently have it hooked to the carb but if it's better off the manifold, I'll switch it with another line.

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Quote:
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Quote:
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Weird, I didn't realize you could use vomit as coolant.
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post #115 of 200 Old 06-19-2014, 12:00 PM
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Depends on how the distributor is tuned. Manifold vac adds vac advance at idle which some people want or like. For me personally I want vac advance to increase gradually with my throttle I have always had better power an acceleration this way on every engine I've built. But that is again looking at total timing and having an adjustable advance can. On manifold it allows you to dial in less initial advance and overall less total advance but once the engine fires up it will have higher total timing until you step into the throttle then the timing will retard as vac signal in the manifold drops (the closer to wot you get) I get a flatter power curve using more initial and curved total mechanical to match the engine and fuel type then use the vac as a progressive light load advance to (ported vac on carb) to tune my cruise and part throttle range for best mileage and drivability. But we all have out own methods.


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post #116 of 200 Old 06-23-2014, 08:51 AM Thread Starter
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OK so it really depends on the situation... For now, I'll leave mine as it is since it seems to work pretty well. Someday when I start tuning on this, I'll keep that in mind. Thanks!

~Chris
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Quote:
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post #117 of 200 Old 06-23-2014, 08:56 AM Thread Starter
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I thought this was a neat picture from yesterday when I was out testing the brakes...




~Chris
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Quote:
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Quote:
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post #118 of 200 Old 06-23-2014, 01:28 PM
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If you can install a wide band 02 meter such as the AEM unit. It will really help you see what effect the timing and or jetting changes have on fuel burn. For example if you move timing in a direction that ends up with a richer mixture it's quite likely the wrong direction. If she leans out with more advance for example then you can likely step up the jetting to match and make better power. I have a high dollar Innovate LM2 dual channel logger that I use for tuning but in my WJ I also have the AEM digital gauge which works quite well for on the spot info. Big thing w the amc 360 is people always seem to over advance them and hammer out the rod bearings prematurely. Since mild detonation can't be heard etc.
Forgot to mention thanks to all the crap and ethanol in today's fuel the art of reading the plugs does not work very well anymore. At best It's a quick ballpark but you can be running a 12:1 mix at part throttle (rich as xxxt) and still normal looking plugs.


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post #119 of 200 Old 07-03-2014, 08:50 AM Thread Starter
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That's part of my future plans when I install exhaust - weld in some O2 bungs! I imagine that will help tremendously!

~Chris
His: 2004 WJ - OME HD 'Kolak' Lift -
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His: 1979 J-10 - 3" on 33s -
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His: 2009 Expedition
His: 1978 F250 Custom -
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Hers: 2000 TJ
Hers: 2010 Jetta


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Quote:
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"You can't recycle tartar sauce."
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Originally Posted by steve_80 View Post
Weird, I didn't realize you could use vomit as coolant.
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post #120 of 200 Old 07-03-2014, 08:56 AM Thread Starter
ChrisHager
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2004 WJ 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Springfield
Posts: 9,558
Garage
A friend recently informed me of a car show in my hometown and suggested I enter since there aren't many Jeep trucks running around here. I figured, why not? I headed to his house Saturday and paid him to detail it up (he used to work in auto body and knows a thing or two about this stuff ).









Left is polished, right is unpolished.







Tucked away in a very tiny garage for the night. We didn't want it to get dirty before the show the next day!



Not a great picture as I was at the edge of the show. Some pretty sweet cars and trucks made it out for the day though! Most were classics but as you can see, there were a few newer vehicles near me.



Annnnnnddddd.....

3rd place in the truck category!


~Chris
His: 2004 WJ - OME HD 'Kolak' Lift -
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His: 1979 J-10 - 3" on 33s -
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

His: 2009 Expedition
His: 1978 F250 Custom -
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Hers: 2000 TJ
Hers: 2010 Jetta


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt
"You can't recycle tartar sauce."
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve_80 View Post
Weird, I didn't realize you could use vomit as coolant.
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