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Unread 12-08-2014, 05:28 PM   #1
evilspiral
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4 Barrel carb conversion

Hi all,
I have a 1984 Jeep Grand Wagoneer that I traded another car for it. I got it from some tweeker mechanic. A good portion of the emissions stuff has been removed, crimped and permanently closed. The carburetor that is on the FSJ is a barely working 2 barrel that's from God only knows what, and most of the mechanical parts don't work.









My question is this, in your own opinion, what is the better option. replace carburetor with a new 2 barrel(what kind and why), or replace the old 2 barrel intake with a 4 barrel intake( what kind and why) and use either a Edelbrock 4bbl 1406 or a Holley/Motorcraft 4bbl 4180 (I have both, they just need a rebuild kit and a good cleaning.)

Edelbrock 1406




Holley 4180






I'm asking because I have never converted a 2 barrel to a 4 barrel, but the prices are about the same to either by a new carb or a new intake. it seems it might be better to replace the intake and go with a stronger carb but Id like to know what my best option would be.

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Unread 12-08-2014, 06:55 PM   #2
billy_YJ
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I'm curious as well... My Woody is all stock, and when chatting with an old "Jeep guy" at the gas station he asked why I hadn't upgraded "that ole 2B carb" yet? Said these old wagons should have came stock with 4B carbs. I'd love to know the advantages & disadvantages of going with a 4B. Drop some knowledge guys!
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Unread 12-08-2014, 08:39 PM   #3
CSP
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The stock carb, which you have, is the Motorcraft 2100.


Not to be presumptuous, but if you don't know why to go to a 4bbl, you're probably not going to be successful in swapping one in. They don't just get bolted on as they are set in the box and require tuning to get running properly.
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Unread 12-08-2014, 09:11 PM   #4
RockRollin
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The Motorcraft 2100 is a good carb, for a 2v. It is stock on the 360, but I think you should have a 2150 by 1984.
There are many advantages to a 4v and intake swap. Smaller primaries on the 4v can increase fuel economy (if you keep your foot off the floor), better flowing intake (the stock 2v intake sucks, often leaving cylinders 7,8 in lean conditions even when correctly tuned). There is more to taking advantage of the swap than just the swap. You need to tune the ignition as well as the carb. A carb is only as good as the tuning allows, next would be dialing in the cam, or cam replacement along with timing gears and chain.
I would suggest google the crap out of carb tuning and overhaul.
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Unread 12-09-2014, 11:15 AM   #5
evilspiral
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@CSP Just because I don't know something at the moment doesn't mean I cant figure it out. I have yet come across something that I couldn't fix.
I do understand the benefits to swapping out the carb but I want to make sure the benefits outweigh the cons, sometimes stock parts are a better choice than swapping for aftermarket.
Unfortunately the 84' still had the 3 speed automatic transmission so it could use the extra umph cause it seems to struggle to get up to speed.

I just called a shop near me that strictly deals with Jeeps and I was told to go with a new manifold and carb, apparently he can get a new Edelbrock manifold and carb for 400$ which is great cause I've only seen manifolds themselves for 400$ but they cant do work on it because the emissions gear was permanently removed.

As for tuning I just need to make it a little more rich as the 1406 is a pretty lean carb, and make sure to install spring loaded needles and seats for off-road so the carb doesn't flood.

Im just curious as to what your preferences are for a 50/50 onroad/offroad setup.
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Unread 12-09-2014, 01:41 PM   #6
CSP
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I didn't mean that you couldn't figure it out, but I can see where you'd get that idea. My intended point was that there's more to it than just bolting the parts on.
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Unread 12-09-2014, 04:27 PM   #7
jamesdart
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is that 4180 the oe ford carb? that's a real good carb they need some work to run on other engines but guys on ifsja are having good luck with them. I have one id like to build and run one day. they are a little smaller than most aftermarket 4 brl carbs and have some features that aftermarket carbs don't have.
mine had a big holley 2 brl. it ran ok. just ok. I swapped to a performer intake and holley 600 that I rebuilt and its running way better. im still tuning it, but throttle response is way better, low end and top end power has also improved. that holley 500 I had, is big. the throttle bores are a lot bigger than even a 750.
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Unread 12-09-2014, 04:51 PM   #8
evilspiral
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I just hear that there are a lot of anti-tampering devices in the holley/motorcraft carbs making it more difficult to tune, that and I have been told that for offroading the Edelbrock is a better choice. I have yet to see any actual evidence either way as most of the insight I have been given is usually biased opinion without any facts.

@CSP no offense was taken. Ive just been turning wrench long enough, and with the help of my good friend Google, I can figure almost anything out.
And as for just bolting it on, I kinda figured there would be more to it as I am trying to install something that originally wasn't designed for it.
As long as my time, effort and money doesnt get wasted on a futile project and the Wagoneer can run after installation, then I'm happy and tuning should be a breeze.

There are some great videos on rebuilding and swapping carbs, so for now I'm just seeing what would be a better option since I have to replace the carb anyway.
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Unread 12-09-2014, 04:53 PM   #9
Dr. Marneaus
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FWIW the eddy's suck offroad. You NEED the offroad kit, and I have heard even then it still aint so great. I have been halted on trails numerous times by my stock 1406. I'm running a factory 4bbl intake, FWIW.

As mentioned, the stock setups are pretty decent. they are pretty good about not flooding on offcamber angles, and they include an altitude compensation valve so they're pretty good even when making trips to varying altitudes, which is another issue i run into with my 1406. I often times will drive from my home altitude of 2500ish up to around 8000-9000 depending on where I am headed, and if i head down hill to far I'll start to get pinging from running too lean.
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Unread 12-09-2014, 05:14 PM   #10
evilspiral
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Hmmmmm, if elevation is a big issue with Eddy's then that might be a deal breaker for me as I live in the Cascades of Washington where I can go from sea level to 1000 feet pretty quick. I might have to tear apart both carbs and see what the pros and cons of both would be. Oh and if I do decide to go with the Edelbrock I would be getting a rebuild kit, the off road kit and a performance kit that has all the different kinds of metering rods and jets.
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Unread 12-09-2014, 05:16 PM   #11
jamesdart
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I run the spring loaded needle and seat and extend the fuel bowl vent on the holleys. run the float a little lower, and very rarely have issues with fuel on the trails. what kind of offroading are you talking?
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Unread 12-09-2014, 05:36 PM   #12
evilspiral
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I saw this in another thread and cleared some things up for me. I think my idea to go with a new Edelbrock intake manifold and rebuilt Eddy 1406 might not be the best choice. I might have to look into this Holley and see what potential it has.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
I bring 30 years of working in the automotive industry, racing and high performance in particular, to the table on this subject, plus, I'm Holley factory trained.

First things first!
APPLICATION, APPLICATION & APPLICATION!

360 CID, 4 cycle engine, means 180 Cubic Inches per Revolution.

Most aftermarket intakes quit working at about 5,000 to 5,500 RPM, and you really shouldn't push factory cast iron rods past about 5,500, so we'll set the Rev Limit at 5,500...

Now figure Volumetric Efficiency. That's how well your intake, valves, camshaft and exhaust work together...
Figure a VE of about 80% for a stock engine (and I'm being kind here)...

180 ci x .80 = 144 CI per Revolution.

144 ci x 5,500 RPM = 792,000 cu in
792,000 cu in 1,728 Cu In. = 458.333 CFM (Cubic Feet per Minute)
(1,728 Cubic Inches = 1 Cubic Foot)

458 CFM carb will work, but the standing rule for low RPM work is so stay within about 50 CFM larger than the engine will need at it's rev limit, or 508 CFM.

If you intend to 'Hot Rod' the engine, give the carb an extra 150 CFM, stopping about 608 CFM.
I do suggest you do something about the cast iron rods before you 'Hot Rod' the engine!
-----------------------------------------------

My choice is the MC2100 for off road work.
Rebuilds are easy to find, pretty cheap, and work great.
If you want to do the work yourself, cores are dirt cheap in the salvage yards.
Not the most fuel efficient, but plentiful and easy to work on/tune.
-----------------------------------------------

If you intend on street performance (Hot Rod), or squeezing the best mileage out of your vehicle,
I would suggest a SMALL 4 barrel.

The smaller the primary venturis are, the more control you will have over throttle response and fuel mixture.
You can 'Program' the rear ventures to open at a later time, or some times not at all, so you can stay on the smaller front venturis longer.

When you are looking for low RPM operation/throttle response, or fuel mileage, smaller venturis are the name of the game.
--------------------------------------------------------

Rochester QuadraJet does work pretty well off road.
No longer made, so everything you get will be 'Used' or 'Reman'
Edelbrock revived the QuadraJet carb for a while, but dropped the line after only about 5 years.

The problems of the QuadraJet are legendary!
Lag times between primary and secondary engagement, leaking accelerator pumps, siphoning of fuel through the main jets and accelerator pump all make for a problematic tune and constant maintinance.

Carter stopped making the AFB carb long ago, and for very good reason...
It's outdated design, and total lack of ability to seal it up and keep it from leaking was causing a lot of fires under the hoods of Chrysler muscle cars.

Once the patent ran out, Vic Edelbrock Jr. took up the design, made a few changes to try and seal it up, and started producing it as the 'Edelbrock' carb.
I think Weber is doing the actual building of the carb, but it's sold under the 'Edelbrock' name plate.

Some people like it, some don't.
Personally, I don't, since it's not nearly as tunable as a Holley and it's much more leaky, especially when it gets a few miles on it...
I have yet to see one more than 6 months old the accelerator pump isn't leaking and siphoning over into the venturis...

Holley makes a very good carb that is dependable and stays sealed up.
(The Motorcraft 2100 is an early Holley design),
And ANY Holley can EASILY be modified for off road use with a few commonly available off the shelf parts (which the 'Off Road' models already have).
The best part about a Holley is... It's amazingly tunable!
You can tune a Holley for almost any part of the fuel delivery curve and for almost any application!
------------------------

In the end, it's your choice, and no one can make your mind up for you...
If you just want to bolt something on and go, about any of the common choices will work.
If you want to take the time to figure out how things work, why they work, and tune accordingly, then Holley is really the only choice...
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Unread 12-09-2014, 05:38 PM   #13
evilspiral
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I do a lot of adventuring which could lead to deep waters, steep inclines, massive pot holes, tight trails and lots of large articulation areas.
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Unread 12-09-2014, 05:46 PM   #14
Partsmke
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Have you given Fuel injection any thought?
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Unread 12-09-2014, 06:10 PM   #15
evilspiral
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Yeah, then I saw the cheapest price tag of 1,200$ and decided it was not going to happen.
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