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Unread 03-08-2013, 10:16 AM   #1
super98lsc
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1999 WJ 
 
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360 Refresh- Budget Freshen up.

My 360 was rebuilt at some point before, I have no clue whats in it or what was done. I do know its cammed up more than factory lumpy idle, lot more power than a stocker etc. Still has factory intake/carb/manifolds etc. It has a light knock and a lazy lifter when cold started. From what I hear these blocks really stay true in the bores etc. If I have no spun bearings (which i dont it runs good) can i just measure clearances with plasti-guage and bore measuring tool and replace the bearings/rings seals and just hone it?
My goal is just to do a low buck refresh with a new timing cover and oil pump, install a larger comp cam/lifters I have with Edl RPM intake and headers. End game will be MegaSquirt 3 and TBI. Oil pressure cold is 44psi and 20 warm at idle, at cruise 1500+ it hovers around 40-45.

May swap pistons to bump compression up depending on cam i would like 9.5 to 10:1

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77-Corvette Stingray 496 BBC/TH400 built 667hp+
===================================
00 WJ 4x4, 4.7 stroker, turbocharged,..lots more..
01 WJ 4x2 4.7v8 Limited (needs valve job)
90 Grand Wagoneer 401 Edelbrock Heads, Lunati .510/.527 FT Cam, Edelbrock RPM Air Gap, Holley HP 750, Thorley Headers, HEI, Electric Fan w Digital controller,4" lift 31x10.50 Goodyear Duratrac's on Pro-Comp Wheels,new interior, seats,seals,Alpine and JL full system, Remote HEI, Clifford 2 way with remote start,windows,tailgate.
96 Cherokee Country 4dr/2x2 White/Tan 3" Lift Sahara 18" Wheels 32.5"'s 99up head and intake- for sale soon!
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Unread 03-11-2013, 08:45 PM   #2
super98lsc
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so is it possible to just measure and swap bearings without machining? Or should I just breakdown and pay the 800 or so to have it all done and balanced?
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06-Corvette z51-6spd,b&b,K&N low miles.
77-Corvette Stingray 496 BBC/TH400 built 667hp+
===================================
00 WJ 4x4, 4.7 stroker, turbocharged,..lots more..
01 WJ 4x2 4.7v8 Limited (needs valve job)
90 Grand Wagoneer 401 Edelbrock Heads, Lunati .510/.527 FT Cam, Edelbrock RPM Air Gap, Holley HP 750, Thorley Headers, HEI, Electric Fan w Digital controller,4" lift 31x10.50 Goodyear Duratrac's on Pro-Comp Wheels,new interior, seats,seals,Alpine and JL full system, Remote HEI, Clifford 2 way with remote start,windows,tailgate.
96 Cherokee Country 4dr/2x2 White/Tan 3" Lift Sahara 18" Wheels 32.5"'s 99up head and intake- for sale soon!
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Unread 03-12-2013, 04:37 AM   #3
RockRollin
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I've seen my older brother do it many times. He would do a light emery cloth on the surfaces, new bearings and go with it. However he never kept any car for long, so hard to say how long it lasted. I don't think its a very precise way of refreshing. As far as honing and new rings, that should be fine as long as there's no taper in the bores. The question is, what will get you confident in the build.
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Unread 03-12-2013, 08:48 AM   #4
super98lsc
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Yah agreed im afraid to risk it. I have something knocking down low but more of a clerk clerk clerk, no noise under accel or decel. I know front cover and timing set need changed as timing wanders a little with a gun on it and cover is cracked and leaking. Figure that and new oil pump, cam, lifters, intake etc.
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06-Corvette z51-6spd,b&b,K&N low miles.
77-Corvette Stingray 496 BBC/TH400 built 667hp+
===================================
00 WJ 4x4, 4.7 stroker, turbocharged,..lots more..
01 WJ 4x2 4.7v8 Limited (needs valve job)
90 Grand Wagoneer 401 Edelbrock Heads, Lunati .510/.527 FT Cam, Edelbrock RPM Air Gap, Holley HP 750, Thorley Headers, HEI, Electric Fan w Digital controller,4" lift 31x10.50 Goodyear Duratrac's on Pro-Comp Wheels,new interior, seats,seals,Alpine and JL full system, Remote HEI, Clifford 2 way with remote start,windows,tailgate.
96 Cherokee Country 4dr/2x2 White/Tan 3" Lift Sahara 18" Wheels 32.5"'s 99up head and intake- for sale soon!
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Unread 03-12-2013, 09:55 AM   #5
timgr
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Generally, if you have an audible bearing problem with a 360, you'll need to replace the crank. Cast iron cranks aren't any harder than the bearing material, and if you have metal-to-metal contact, the crank will be damaged. With a forged steel crank (like the 401), you can sometimes get away with just swapping the bearings, only because the steel crank is a lot harder than a cheaper cast iron crank.

An old-fashioned overhaul is possible - rings, rod bearings and valve job - but only if the engine is in fairly good condition now.

There are other sources of bad noises, besides bearings. Cracked flex plate is a common one, often mistaken for engine noise. IMO your best route is to disassemble and measure, and only fix what's needed... but budget for the worst possible outcome. A new cam and intake seem rather secondary to fixing whatever the noisy issue is ...
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Unread 03-12-2013, 10:01 AM   #6
timgr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockRollin View Post
... As far as honing and new rings, that should be fine as long as there's no taper in the bores. The question is, what will get you confident in the build.
If the engine is worn, the bores will be tapered. No doubt. The question is not if the bores are tapered, but how much.

You can put new rings in tapered bores, but they will a) not last as long as if the bores were straight (fatigue from the constant expansion and contraction), and b) likely not seat if you use anything but cast iron rings. No Moly or Chrome.

Hone the bores and fit cast iron rings, and it will probably be fine for now. You also need to measure the piston grooves to make sure they are not excessively worn.
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1) '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS, hubcaps. 2) '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, KOs, 7600 GVWR 3) '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top 4) '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
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Unread 03-12-2013, 10:17 AM   #7
timgr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by super98lsc View Post
My 360 was rebuilt at some point before, I have no clue whats in it or what was done. I do know its cammed up more than factory lumpy idle, lot more power than a stocker etc. Still has factory intake/carb/manifolds etc. It has a light knock and a lazy lifter when cold started. From what I hear these blocks really stay true in the bores etc. If I have no spun bearings (which i dont it runs good) can i just measure clearances with plasti-guage and bore measuring tool and replace the bearings/rings seals and just hone it?
My goal is just to do a low buck refresh with a new timing cover and oil pump, install a larger comp cam/lifters I have with Edl RPM intake and headers. End game will be MegaSquirt 3 and TBI. Oil pressure cold is 44psi and 20 warm at idle, at cruise 1500+ it hovers around 40-45.

May swap pistons to bump compression up depending on cam i would like 9.5 to 10:1
JMO - you are really putting the cart before the horse here. How's the compression? If you have good compression, there's no reason to replace the rings. If you have a hammered rod bearing, likely you have some metal in the oil passages - up to you whether you want to disassemble and clean everything. Instead, you could buy a crank kit, turn the engine upside down on the bench, and replace the crank and bearings.

A shop would never do a repair like this - too much possibility of something going wrong. A shop would want to sell you a remanufactured engine. You too will be taking some risk if you try to just fix the obvious problem.

Replacement pistons are the single most expensive part in an engine rebuild. You would be foolish to buy and fit new pistons and not do a complete rebuild. The least you can do with new pistons is strip the block and measure the bores. Pistons need to be fitted to the bores - it's not a simple replacement part that you can pop in. It is possible to do a patch-up repair with, say a single used replacement piston, but you still need to measure the piston diameter and fit the bore to the new piston.

With 20psi hot idle oil pressure, I doubt you have some terrible bearing problem. Does the engine clunk at idle? One test is to, one by one, pull the spark plug wire from each cylinder. If a rod bearing is clunking, it will go quiet when that cylinder is no longer firing.

You can also take the pan off and Plastigage the bearings with the crank in place. Also inspect the bearings for obvious scuffing and loss of bearing metal. I would also look closely at the flex plate.
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1) '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS, hubcaps. 2) '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, KOs, 7600 GVWR 3) '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top 4) '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
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Unread 03-12-2013, 08:29 PM   #8
super98lsc
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timgr , checking the flexplate is a great idea!
I've put 11k miles on it and noise hasn't changed a bit.

I know the engine was replaced or rebuilt at some point before and has some sort of hotter cam in it. I have not pulled the covers to measure the lift yet. Or put the degree wheel on it.

Some fool put the distributor hold down on backwards with a jackhammer and busted the front cover. I retapped what's left of it to keep the disti in place for now.

popping wires made no change tried that 3 months ago :-) good trick though.

reason I was asking all this is I know I have one valve that's noisy when cold and it sticks causing a slight misfire on cyl 1 or 3. The second it frees up she's up smooth on all 8. It leaks oil, bad cover, I have a credit w comp cams for a full kit so a hotter grind in order, manifolds leak and I want headers and duals, a 4 barrel intake, I'll build and program my own tbi w comp controlled timing.

I'm not one to half arse a motor build. Just thought I'd ask in case I wanted to do a budget build. Yah pistons are a fortune, spent 800 on them and another 600 on rods for my forged 4.7 build.

sounds like to do it right I should just pull it and build it all, or for the $ this 6.0 LS or my spare .030 over 454 sure is looking good. I just hate giving up the classic engines ;-)
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06-Corvette z51-6spd,b&b,K&N low miles.
77-Corvette Stingray 496 BBC/TH400 built 667hp+
===================================
00 WJ 4x4, 4.7 stroker, turbocharged,..lots more..
01 WJ 4x2 4.7v8 Limited (needs valve job)
90 Grand Wagoneer 401 Edelbrock Heads, Lunati .510/.527 FT Cam, Edelbrock RPM Air Gap, Holley HP 750, Thorley Headers, HEI, Electric Fan w Digital controller,4" lift 31x10.50 Goodyear Duratrac's on Pro-Comp Wheels,new interior, seats,seals,Alpine and JL full system, Remote HEI, Clifford 2 way with remote start,windows,tailgate.
96 Cherokee Country 4dr/2x2 White/Tan 3" Lift Sahara 18" Wheels 32.5"'s 99up head and intake- for sale soon!
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Unread 03-12-2013, 09:02 PM   #9
RockRollin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timgr View Post

With 20psi hot idle oil pressure, I doubt you have some terrible bearing problem. Does the engine clunk at idle? One test is to, one by one, pull the spark plug wire from each cylinder. If a rod bearing is clunking, it will go quiet when that cylinder is no longer firing.

You can also take the pan off and Plastigage the bearings with the crank in place. Also inspect the bearings for obvious scuffing and loss of bearing metal. I would also look closely at the flex plate.
X2 visual and plastigage. When I first got my wagon I had a faint knock for the first couple of seconds after start. When my starter failed I installed a reman starter and no more knock it wasn't hanging on the flywheel, perhaps just ticking it till it was tapped out of the way.
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Unread 03-12-2013, 09:26 PM   #10
super98lsc
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I have plastigauage in the garage from my zillion other engine builds, since I'm gonna reseal the engine might as well check it all out. I'll check compression this weekend. At 10deg initial and 30 total it will ping unless I'm on 93 octane. I'm at 14 base 34 total now and premium diet. I ran my lm2 widebands on it have afr around 14.3 at cruise 14.6 idle and 12.8 wot. Runs sluggish with less than 12 base timing. If I had to guess the compression is good. Zero smoke hot cold or wide open.
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06-Corvette z51-6spd,b&b,K&N low miles.
77-Corvette Stingray 496 BBC/TH400 built 667hp+
===================================
00 WJ 4x4, 4.7 stroker, turbocharged,..lots more..
01 WJ 4x2 4.7v8 Limited (needs valve job)
90 Grand Wagoneer 401 Edelbrock Heads, Lunati .510/.527 FT Cam, Edelbrock RPM Air Gap, Holley HP 750, Thorley Headers, HEI, Electric Fan w Digital controller,4" lift 31x10.50 Goodyear Duratrac's on Pro-Comp Wheels,new interior, seats,seals,Alpine and JL full system, Remote HEI, Clifford 2 way with remote start,windows,tailgate.
96 Cherokee Country 4dr/2x2 White/Tan 3" Lift Sahara 18" Wheels 32.5"'s 99up head and intake- for sale soon!
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Unread 03-13-2013, 01:57 PM   #11
super98lsc
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  • Wiseco Pistons $650.00
  • Forged K1 H beam 4340 Rods $490.15
  • Does anyone make a forged crank for a 360?
  • Is it better to just swap in a 401 crank and make a 392 stroker? Presuming I would need to use custom pistons but doubt it would be much more than a set of .030 forgings for this thing.
  • Port/Polish/Surface/ cc existing heads, change valves and have a good 5 angle done. Or just buy ready to run Edelbrocks and clean them up a bit. (better for texas heat and octane)
  • Doesnt appear roller cams are easy to find either. I nearly ran a 505 perf roller in my 4.7 stroker but glad I didnt. Had my own spec Lunati ground solid flat tappet instead.
  • New oil pump and front cover
  • Good timing set
  • ARP everything (rods come pre-fit with ARP)
  • Presume if i go custom pistons I would tend to lean towards floating pins.
Add all that up plus machine work do it right, plus a TBI / MegaSquirt 3 and I can swap the 6.0/4L80E from GM 3500 in cheaper .
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06-Corvette z51-6spd,b&b,K&N low miles.
77-Corvette Stingray 496 BBC/TH400 built 667hp+
===================================
00 WJ 4x4, 4.7 stroker, turbocharged,..lots more..
01 WJ 4x2 4.7v8 Limited (needs valve job)
90 Grand Wagoneer 401 Edelbrock Heads, Lunati .510/.527 FT Cam, Edelbrock RPM Air Gap, Holley HP 750, Thorley Headers, HEI, Electric Fan w Digital controller,4" lift 31x10.50 Goodyear Duratrac's on Pro-Comp Wheels,new interior, seats,seals,Alpine and JL full system, Remote HEI, Clifford 2 way with remote start,windows,tailgate.
96 Cherokee Country 4dr/2x2 White/Tan 3" Lift Sahara 18" Wheels 32.5"'s 99up head and intake- for sale soon!
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Unread 03-13-2013, 06:47 PM   #12
RockRollin
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Check 390 crank, thought they were forged. Beware of "new" timing cover, Bull tear, or BJ's only. I think you could have the heads done for the price of one Edel head. Never heard any complaints about stock rods. Yea a 6.0 would be cool, but it wouldn't be an AMC.
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Unread 03-13-2013, 07:57 PM   #13
super98lsc
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Yep I hate to see old iron get pushed away....

Ok so got bored this eve, yanked all the plugs with motor hot, ran comp test and all cylinders at 120 exactly, I mean zero variance tested them wet and dry, sprayed some synthetic down in each cyl etc.
Seafoamed the **** out of it after that. Killed every living organism within 2 blocks of my house.
My best attainable idle vac is 12" at 10-15 deg initial. Vac needle is steady etc. Bring it up to 20-22 initial and it pulls a steady 15". Also runs tons better at 22. Tip in is best w advance on manifold vs. ported. Total timing is 38deg all in by 2850. (disconnected when setting initial and total of course)
Wideband (lm2) cleans up under load and wot from 12.4 to 12.9.
its amazing how much less pedal it needs. I had 25/40 in it but on days over 80 deg it would rattle a little on hills part throttle. The current advance is non adjustable, and adds 15 deg advance by 15". Tested w hand pump. Also used 2 vac guages to validate readings etc. this bastard likes timing!! I ran it at 15 base for a day it was hesitating off line, popping back out of the carb once or twice when I leaned into it too quickly (lightly pv ok) and it drank gas like it had a hole in it. Agreed on front cover heard lots of stories about "other brands" thanks for all the info guys much appreciated, amc v8 is new to me. Built dozens of others but each has its own tricks. My guess is the low vac caused by the mystery cam and who knows where its degreed at causes the vac.advance to drop out at the lightest of throttle touch. So it likes more mechanical adv.
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06-Corvette z51-6spd,b&b,K&N low miles.
77-Corvette Stingray 496 BBC/TH400 built 667hp+
===================================
00 WJ 4x4, 4.7 stroker, turbocharged,..lots more..
01 WJ 4x2 4.7v8 Limited (needs valve job)
90 Grand Wagoneer 401 Edelbrock Heads, Lunati .510/.527 FT Cam, Edelbrock RPM Air Gap, Holley HP 750, Thorley Headers, HEI, Electric Fan w Digital controller,4" lift 31x10.50 Goodyear Duratrac's on Pro-Comp Wheels,new interior, seats,seals,Alpine and JL full system, Remote HEI, Clifford 2 way with remote start,windows,tailgate.
96 Cherokee Country 4dr/2x2 White/Tan 3" Lift Sahara 18" Wheels 32.5"'s 99up head and intake- for sale soon!
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Unread 03-14-2013, 07:23 AM   #14
super98lsc
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Here is a clip of my 4.7 stroker idling in my 2000 WJ this is N/A and partially tuned.


Tuned by Ryan aka Flyinryan! guys a wizzard with the factory PCM's!
Sadly its apart right now as the melling HV pump locked up its drive shaft and snapped while I was hopping on the freeway, cut the key as fast as I could towed her home yanked the pan, checked for damage, swapped the pump but had a rod knock. Engine is back at the machine shop getting crank and big ends re-sized and everything re-spin balanced. Thankfully nothing else was hurt. This vid was shot with the Banks knock off headers and a single 2.5" dynomax setup. It wasnt flowing nearly enough air for the motor, so the new system is a 3" with same dual outlet header dual 2.5" coming to a 4" Y into the turbo then 3" all the way back through a HUGE magnaflow. I do have 2 spiral wound Magnaflow cats waiting to go back in so I will split it to duals after the turbo through both 3" in/out cats (flow 660cfm each) then back into the single 3".
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06-Corvette z51-6spd,b&b,K&N low miles.
77-Corvette Stingray 496 BBC/TH400 built 667hp+
===================================
00 WJ 4x4, 4.7 stroker, turbocharged,..lots more..
01 WJ 4x2 4.7v8 Limited (needs valve job)
90 Grand Wagoneer 401 Edelbrock Heads, Lunati .510/.527 FT Cam, Edelbrock RPM Air Gap, Holley HP 750, Thorley Headers, HEI, Electric Fan w Digital controller,4" lift 31x10.50 Goodyear Duratrac's on Pro-Comp Wheels,new interior, seats,seals,Alpine and JL full system, Remote HEI, Clifford 2 way with remote start,windows,tailgate.
96 Cherokee Country 4dr/2x2 White/Tan 3" Lift Sahara 18" Wheels 32.5"'s 99up head and intake- for sale soon!
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