230 Tornado- oil in the coolant problem - JeepForum.com
Search  
Sign Up   Today's Posts
User: Pass: Remember?
Advertise Here
Jeep Home Jeep Forum Jeep Classifieds Jeep Registry JeepSpace Jeep Reviews Jeep Gallery Jeep Clubs Jeep Groups Jeep Videos Jeep Events Jeep Articles
Go Back JeepForum.com > Models > Full Size Jeep Forum > 230 Tornado- oil in the coolant problem

XJ Rail Sale!The Ruffstuff NOT Universal 4 Link Kit!Vanco Big Brake Kit Promotion!

Reply
Unread 10-08-2013, 01:06 AM   #1
65j2004x4
Registered User
1965 J-Series Truck 
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: phoenix, AZ - Arizona
Posts: 6
230 Tornado- oil in the coolant problem

I recently acquired a one owner 65 Gladiator J200 4x4 with a 230 OHC Tornado engine here in Phoenix from my neighbor. With the exception of larger 31x10.5x15 tires (changed in the 80ís), it is all original and stock, with all repair receipts and maintenance log. It was his daily driver from 1965 until 2010, when he decided that it was time to treat himself to a new truck (with A/C). The J200 sat in his drive way for three years, but was started once a month or so and driven around the block on occasion.

I have been in the process of a tune up, changing all fluids, belts, hoses, cleaned gas tank, replaced a couple of engine block freeze plugs that had rusted out and gave it a full brake job. Just as I finished all of that and was about ready to get it on the road, I noticed a significant amount of oil in the coolant (chocolate milkshake). When I told the previous owner about the problem, he remembered having oil in the coolant about 20 years ago and the cause was the two small freeze plugs in the top of the head had rusted out. Given that information, I removed the cam and inspection showed that the new (20 year old) brass freeze plugs were in good condition and not leaking. I reinstalled the cam and flushed the coolant. When I restarted the engine, the oil returned to the radiator and coolant (of course). I guess that I am in denial that I have blown a head gasket because it did not overheat (that I recognized anyway) and was running perfectly fine during the tune up process. It should be noted that coolant is not found in the exhaust or crankcase oil. Also that this problem occurred right after I replaced the freeze plugs in the side and the rear of the engine block.

I am only an auto enthusiast and not a mechanic. I do not have any experience with this engine. Does anyone have any ideas, or thoughts on my problem? I would really appreciate feedback on this.

65j2004x4 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 10-08-2013, 09:39 AM   #2
strvger01
Registered User
1966 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Two Harbors, Minnesota
Posts: 1,108
my guess is the head gasket, too.
it's a great engine. i had one in a similar vintage wagon. put lots of miles on it including a 1,600 mile trip. never gave me any problems.
good luck with this for sure.
__________________
1966 CJ5A, mods are coming
1966 Wagoneer, bone stock
strvger01 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 10-08-2013, 11:11 AM   #3
USAFfsj
Registered User
1983 FSJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 67
My guess would also be a head gasket. I had a similar issue with a non-jeep vehicle. This might be a long shot too, but maybe consider the type of coolant you use as well. This might not be the case for you, but using certain types of coolant can react to the metals in your cooling system. Unless you know its oil thats mixing with coolant, maybe this is a possibility too. Ex. would be using dexcool in a classic GM vehicle.. (it gunks up and turns milky brown...)
USAFfsj is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 10-08-2013, 05:01 PM   #4
65j2004x4
Registered User
1965 J-Series Truck 
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: phoenix, AZ - Arizona
Posts: 6
230 Tornado- oil in the coolant problem

Thanks for your thoughts.

Common sense really does point to a head gasket issue. I guess that I was hoping that someone would tell me that the 230 engine was unique to most other gas engines and that all I needed to do is turn the discombobulator clockwise on the thingamagig next to the whatumacallit. Probably no such luck?

BTW, I was able to pressurize the cooling system with about 15 PSI. It lost 2-3 PSI quickly (I assume because of the 13 PSI radiator cap) and then over about 5-7 min went to zero. I did find another pin hole leak in a freeze plug, so that could be the source of pressure loss. I checked the oil on the dipstick and it did not show any signs of coolant (I didnt restart the engine after the pressure test.)

USAFfsj- The first time it happened I had coolant in the engine. After I pulled the cam, I flushed the system with tap water and ran it with with the radiator cap off with a garden hose in it and slowly running, while draining the bottom of the radiator in a bucket. I did this for about 15 min and three 5 gallon buckets worth of chocolate milkshake while idling. the color and consistency of the liquid in the bucket did not change. I checked the oil and it appeared to be free of water. The oil level was about 3/4 of a quart low. I did not check the oil level before doing the idle/hose/bucket test, but I am fairly sure that the oil was full, because I had recently changed the oil.

I wont be able to get to it for another couple of weeks so in the meantime if anyone else has any advise, or how to properly test/diagnose the problem as a headgasket issue, that would be great.
65j2004x4 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 10-08-2013, 05:09 PM   #5
65j2004x4
Registered User
1965 J-Series Truck 
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: phoenix, AZ - Arizona
Posts: 6
I should also mention that the 15min/15gallon test was done while the engine was idling. The color and consistency of the liquid going in the bucket did not change. The engine did not seem to be overheating; in fact I think that it was running cooler because I was introducing fresh tap water into the system. During the test the engine was running fine and there were no signs of water coming out of the exhaust.
65j2004x4 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 10-08-2013, 07:39 PM   #6
strvger01
Registered User
1966 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Two Harbors, Minnesota
Posts: 1,108
i know you don't want to hear this, but i'm still betting on a head gasket. even the little leak at the freeze plug wouldn't account for the oil in the water, just the pressure loss you found.
many parts stores seem to have different "quality" replacement gaskets. for your engine, i'd pay extra for the best one they have. usually it's the difference between cork and various grades of rubber. and i like using the Permatex Ultra Black in a thin coat to assure the gasket adheres and seals good. let it cure for 24 hours then you should be good to go.
__________________
1966 CJ5A, mods are coming
1966 Wagoneer, bone stock
strvger01 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 10-09-2013, 05:39 PM   #7
65j2004x4
Registered User
1965 J-Series Truck 
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: phoenix, AZ - Arizona
Posts: 6
Thanks for the tip on the head gasket.

I'm having a hard time finding a valve cover gasket. Any suggestions?
65j2004x4 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 10-10-2013, 01:46 PM   #8
strvger01
Registered User
1966 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Two Harbors, Minnesota
Posts: 1,108
here ya go:
http://walcks4wd.com/valve-cover-gas...m-tornado.html
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VALVE-COVER-...-/310305240237
__________________
1966 CJ5A, mods are coming
1966 Wagoneer, bone stock
strvger01 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 10-11-2013, 09:35 AM   #9
super98lsc
Web Wheeler
1999 WJ 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,414
Only part of this that is odd to me is how the oil is entering into the water vs water getting into the oil. Since the cooling system would be under pressure and the oil is just at either a vacuum (PCV) or atmospheric just seems it would be the other way around. And on every engine I ever dealt with that had cracked blocks/heads blown gaskets this was the case. The only times I have found oil entering my coolant is when an Automatic trans cooler inside the radiator goes bad or an oil cooler fails allowing pressurized oil coming off the pump high side to be forced into the water. Not worked on that particular 230 but it is a cool engine hopefully you can get it sorted and save it.

_R
__________________
www.mangierisrc.com
06-Corvette z51-6spd,b&b,K&N low miles.
77-Corvette Stingray 496 BBC/TH400 built 667hp+
===================================
00 WJ 4x4, 4.7 stroker, turbocharged,..lots more..
01 WJ 4x2 4.7v8 Limited (needs valve job)
90 Grand Wagoneer 401 Edelbrock Heads, Lunati .510/.527 FT Cam, Edelbrock RPM Air Gap, Holley HP 750, Thorley Headers, HEI, Electric Fan w Digital controller,4" lift 31x10.50 Goodyear Duratrac's on Pro-Comp Wheels,new interior, seats,seals,Alpine and JL full system, Remote HEI, Clifford 2 way with remote start,windows,tailgate.
96 Cherokee Country 4dr/2x2 White/Tan 3" Lift Sahara 18" Wheels 32.5"'s 99up head and intake- for sale soon!
super98lsc is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 10-11-2013, 03:27 PM   #10
strvger01
Registered User
1966 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Two Harbors, Minnesota
Posts: 1,108
he was loosing water pressure through a leaky freeze plug, iirc.
__________________
1966 CJ5A, mods are coming
1966 Wagoneer, bone stock
strvger01 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 10-12-2013, 11:56 PM   #11
65j2004x4
Registered User
1965 J-Series Truck 
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: phoenix, AZ - Arizona
Posts: 6
It does seem odd, but right now i'm leaning towards the head gasket as the problem. I still wont be able to get to it for a while but I will post my results. The Tornado engine is a cool engine. I really do want to get it going again. It is the original engine, but worse case scenario, the PO does have two back up tornado engines.

Picked up the valve cover gasket today online at Walcks. I also ordered the Tornado engine service manual. Head gasket is next.
65j2004x4 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 10-14-2013, 01:53 PM   #12
super98lsc
Web Wheeler
1999 WJ 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,414
I would think losing water pressure via freeze plug would cause water in the oil. Not oil in the water as described. Thus this is a really RARE case. This makes me think that someone added some stop leak, motor oil, or who knows what to the cooling system which is just continually coming out. Sometimes people would try to "LUBE THE WATER PUMP and seals" by adding motor oil to the coolant. You might drain the oil, remove the drain plug and set a 100% clean bucket/pan under the engine then fill the cooling system with water and pressure test it to 13-15 psi. (Of course DONT START IT UP) See if any water begins to come out of the oil drain into the pan after say 1-3 hours or however long you can maintain pressure. I am really leaning on this not being oil related. Even if a pressurized oil passage in the block were to have rusted through to the coolant passage, the oil pan would fill with water when you shut down the hot engine. So if the oil remains clean and water free fix the coolant leaks where-ever you find them then run it a for a while and keep tabs on the oil level/color. If it does not turn milky or lose level then you have your answer. Just my .02
__________________
www.mangierisrc.com
06-Corvette z51-6spd,b&b,K&N low miles.
77-Corvette Stingray 496 BBC/TH400 built 667hp+
===================================
00 WJ 4x4, 4.7 stroker, turbocharged,..lots more..
01 WJ 4x2 4.7v8 Limited (needs valve job)
90 Grand Wagoneer 401 Edelbrock Heads, Lunati .510/.527 FT Cam, Edelbrock RPM Air Gap, Holley HP 750, Thorley Headers, HEI, Electric Fan w Digital controller,4" lift 31x10.50 Goodyear Duratrac's on Pro-Comp Wheels,new interior, seats,seals,Alpine and JL full system, Remote HEI, Clifford 2 way with remote start,windows,tailgate.
96 Cherokee Country 4dr/2x2 White/Tan 3" Lift Sahara 18" Wheels 32.5"'s 99up head and intake- for sale soon!
super98lsc is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 10-15-2013, 07:31 PM   #13
strvger01
Registered User
1966 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Two Harbors, Minnesota
Posts: 1,108
iirc, the water jacket is around the outside of the block. when water is lost to the outside via a freeze plug, thermostat housing, radiator, etc., the pressure in the cooling system is reduced. the pressure in the oil lubrication system is greater at that point allowing oil to flow into the water/antifreeze at the place of least resistance. in this case (and usually) the head gasket. at least that's how i understand it. certainly feel free to correct and educate me if my thinking is in error.
__________________
1966 CJ5A, mods are coming
1966 Wagoneer, bone stock
strvger01 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 10-16-2013, 11:09 AM   #14
super98lsc
Web Wheeler
1999 WJ 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,414
That is a good point assuming the cooling system is the lower pressure zone due to the leak, but unless this happens where in an area where the oil under pressure like a passage from pump to bearings etc the oil would almost always be the lower pressure zone so water should fill into the crank case. Just rare to see this unless its an oil cooler etc.
__________________
www.mangierisrc.com
06-Corvette z51-6spd,b&b,K&N low miles.
77-Corvette Stingray 496 BBC/TH400 built 667hp+
===================================
00 WJ 4x4, 4.7 stroker, turbocharged,..lots more..
01 WJ 4x2 4.7v8 Limited (needs valve job)
90 Grand Wagoneer 401 Edelbrock Heads, Lunati .510/.527 FT Cam, Edelbrock RPM Air Gap, Holley HP 750, Thorley Headers, HEI, Electric Fan w Digital controller,4" lift 31x10.50 Goodyear Duratrac's on Pro-Comp Wheels,new interior, seats,seals,Alpine and JL full system, Remote HEI, Clifford 2 way with remote start,windows,tailgate.
96 Cherokee Country 4dr/2x2 White/Tan 3" Lift Sahara 18" Wheels 32.5"'s 99up head and intake- for sale soon!
super98lsc is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Unread 10-17-2013, 11:29 AM   #15
65j2004x4
Registered User
1965 J-Series Truck 
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: phoenix, AZ - Arizona
Posts: 6
Yes that is also my assumption. My best guess is that the gasket is comprimised where cooling and oil ports are in the same location. looking at the engine cutaway view in the shop manual, it looks like it could be at the rear where the head meets the block.
65j2004x4 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the JeepForum.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid e-mail address for yourself.
Note: All free e-mails have been banned due to mis-use. (Yahoo, Gmail, Hotmail, etc.)
Don't have a non-free e-mail address? Click here for a solution: Manual Account Creation
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.


Thread Tools






Jeep, Wrangler, Cherokee, Grand Cherokee, and other models are copyrighted and trademarked to Jeep/Chrysler Corporation. JeepForum.com is not in any way associated with Jeep or the Chrysler Corp.