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Unread 01-14-2014, 06:32 AM   #16
jjvw
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As you said, we use the term suck as a linguistic shortcut for all of the above. We do this all the time in our speech because it is quicker and good enough for most purposes. An engine sucks air in from its environment. We all know it and understand it. If more scientific accuracy is needed, then it is available as you demonstrated. To argue that an engine does not suck air is actually more confusing than just expounding on this sucking phenomena in greater detail. Would you argue that turbos don't blow air?

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Unread 01-14-2014, 10:51 AM   #17
fastfreddie
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I only mentioned it as a side during my reasoning to use a vacuum gauge for monitoring fuel consumption.
As far as applying the principle towards turbos goes, I don't care about turbos.

Seriousy, it's the same thing. The vanes create a low pressure zone and the balance is restored. The more the pressure is reduced, the more forceful the restoration.

The same effects apply to helicopters or prop driven airplanes. They don't blow air downwards or backwards in order to fly. They push the air, creating a low pressure zone above or in front, then the atmosphere pushes the mechanism creating the low into the low to fill it. The difference with turbos is, turbos are locked in a stationary position inside a tube. The effect is more dramatic than putting it out in the open. A turbo will never out flow the atmosphere. You create a low pressure zone of any kind, with an opening, and the atmosphere is there to restore the balance.

I know my understanding of it is elementary compared to scientific circles. But, I think it helps to recognize the principles at work and, therefore, have a better understanding of a product's function. Anyway, keeps me from buying things like these...
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Unread 01-14-2014, 10:07 PM   #18
TJulius
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Originally Posted by SchizophrenicMC View Post
All energy conversions are inherently entropic. They all lose a portion of the energy to thermodynamic equilibrium. There is no escaping this. To store energy in one form, you have to input more energy than you can extract. When you charge a battery (electrical to chemical conversion) it heats up. When you burn gasoline in an engine (chemical to mechanical) it heats up. When you generate electricity (mechanical to electrical) the generator heats up. Even eating food generates more heat than usable chemical energy.

The only way to see an increase in your vehicle's efficiency or performance by introducing hydrogen is to generate the hydrogen outside the vehicle using equipment not powered by the vehicle, then fill it up with the hydrogen, for metered use while driving. Even then, you pay for it with the energy you consume generating the hydrogen, presumably off the power grid.

Thermodynamic Entropy: Because Literally 90% of What your Engine Does is Get Hot
I realize that energy is lost but the bottom line is that I go to the fuel pump less often. I contacted someone that used stored HHO in their car and they get the same results except that I have a massive supply on hand while they are limited to how much there tank can hold.
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Unread 01-22-2014, 08:14 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by TJulius View Post

I realize that energy is lost but the bottom line is that I go to the fuel pump less often. I contacted someone that used stored HHO in their car and they get the same results except that I have a massive supply on hand while they are limited to how much there tank can hold.
Do you have an upgraded electrical system?
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Unread 01-22-2014, 09:03 AM   #20
green97xjsport
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Originally Posted by TJulius View Post
I realize that energy is lost but the bottom line is that I go to the fuel pump less often. I contacted someone that used stored HHO in their car and they get the same results except that I have a massive supply on hand while they are limited to how much there tank can hold.

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Unread 01-22-2014, 09:09 AM   #21
TJulius
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Do you have an upgraded electrical system?
No it is just hooked up to my battery and I have a switch inside
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Unread 01-23-2014, 09:01 AM   #22
tjkj2002
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Originally Posted by TJulius View Post
My system is different from HHO because the tubes are evenly spaced, so that reduces heat, wasted electricity and produces more gas. I do agree that if you had too buy one it would not be as viable but I did it as a school project and had 90% of the parts donated (about $200 in high grade stainless steel and the use of a quality TIG welder). Besides the better gas mileage I also have an increase in power.
Its' still the same snake oil thing.Any gain you may see is lost via the alternator pulling harder on the engine.It has been proven time and time again that those things do not work.

There is no free energy and if that junk actually worked it would be standard on all vehicles right from the factory.
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Unread 01-23-2014, 03:08 PM   #23
mrbeal
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I am certainly no expert as I am just following along here but...
TJulius says that the contraption separates the Hydrogen and the Oxygen out of the water so there will then be more Oxygen in the air/fuel mixture which will require less fuel as the Oxygen will help burn the fuel more efficiently and Hydrogen burns too so, theoretically it should use less fuel to run the vehicle.
Also, the electricity for the procedure comes from the cars electrical system - I would assume directly from the alternator that is constantly turning during operation of the car... how would this process bleed power from the engine and nullify all the supposed added benefits of burning the Hydrogen/Oxygen???
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Unread 01-23-2014, 03:47 PM   #24
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I made a hydrolysis chamber for my jeep. It is 7 tubes of stainless steel all smaller than the last filled with water and electricity is passed through them. The electricity causes the water to split into hydrogen and oxygen. I pump the oxygen and hydrogen in my carburetor and it aids in fuel combustion. This made my MPGs go from about 15 highway to 40 highway and it is good for the environment. Keep in mind I drive a Yj that does not have fuel emissions testers,so it would not work as well on newer jeeps. I will post pics later.
no one else? i call BS...........
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Unread 01-23-2014, 03:58 PM   #25
TJulius
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no one else? i call BS...........
It's not bs I did it for a school project if you don't believe it I don't care but it's another thing to say it doesn't work
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Unread 01-23-2014, 04:31 PM   #26
tjkj2002
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Originally Posted by mrbeal View Post
I am certainly no expert as I am just following along here but...
TJulius says that the contraption separates the Hydrogen and the Oxygen out of the water so there will then be more Oxygen in the air/fuel mixture which will require less fuel as the Oxygen will help burn the fuel more efficiently and Hydrogen burns too so, theoretically it should use less fuel to run the vehicle.
Also, the electricity for the procedure comes from the cars electrical system - I would assume directly from the alternator that is constantly turning during operation of the car... how would this process bleed power from the engine and nullify all the supposed added benefits of burning the Hydrogen/Oxygen???
A YJ has little electrical need so it has maybe a 60-75amp alternator,which means a useable 40-55amps at max.Those HHO systems can draw well over 50 amps or more.The more demand on the alternator the more resistance it has thus dragging the engine down which burn more gas trying to hold idle and any rpm.Under normal electrical draw on a modern vehicle is somewhere around 30-40 amps(talking about brand new) and that alternator can rob up to 25hp from a engine at normal draw,start turning things on and the engine looses more HP.

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Originally Posted by TJulius View Post
It's not bs I did it for a school project if you don't believe it I don't care but it's another thing to say it doesn't work
Yeah your never going from 15mpg to 40mpg in a YJ,not possible with the OEM engines.Sorry but your lying,no way around that fact.
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Unread 01-23-2014, 04:40 PM   #27
TJulius
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Originally Posted by tjkj2002 View Post
A YJ has little electrical need so it has maybe a 60-75amp alternator,which means a useable 40-55amps at max.Those HHO systems can draw well over 50 amps or more.The more demand on the alternator the more resistance it has thus dragging the engine down which burn more gas trying to hold idle and any rpm.Under normal electrical draw on a modern vehicle is somewhere around 30-40 amps(talking about brand new) and that alternator can rob up to 25hp from a engine at normal draw,start turning things on and the engine looses more HP.

Yeah your never going from 15mpg to 40mpg in a YJ,not possible with the OEM engines.Sorry but your lying,no way around that fact.
Mine pulls 12.7 amps
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Unread 01-23-2014, 04:56 PM   #28
tjcj
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Originally Posted by 222Doc View Post

no one else? i call BS...........
O I'm with you complete BS. 40 mpg's in a wrangler, right. Where's the pics

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Unread 01-23-2014, 05:03 PM   #29
cpeters1928
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I think I'll just get a Prius...
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Unread 01-23-2014, 05:53 PM   #30
tjkj2002
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Originally Posted by TJulius View Post
Mine pulls 12.7 amps
Then your HHO system barely can produce enough hydrogen to keep a flame going let alone increase your mpg's by over 250%.
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