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Unread 02-28-2011, 03:16 PM   #91
bread61
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its simple ... my welds are Gorilla ........ strong and ugly ( thats what the fitters are for .. or grinders whatever they call them nowdays )

for real .. just stay under the hood and you will be fine

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Unread 02-28-2011, 05:04 PM   #92
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Let's clear up one thing here. Ugly welds are not strong welds. An ugly weld is ugly for a reason, it's contaminated, inconsistent, has undercut, didn't penetrate fully, etc... If your weld looks bad, the fact is it pretty much is a bad weld. I've seen far too much of this kind of thought online where someone thinks that even if the weld is ugly but they put enough metal on it it's strong. It isn't. This is one of the times where I actually really like welding certification processes. If you hand an instructor a weld test piece and it looks like crap, they won't even bother to cut it up and DT it, they'll just tell you you failed and need to practice more. There's a reason for this.

I'm not jumping on you in particular about this, you just happen to be the one that brought it up here. I've seen the same thing said thousands of times before. The simplest answer to it is this: An ugly weld is a bad weld period.

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Unread 02-28-2011, 05:12 PM   #93
jonathon97xj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bread61
its simple ... my welds are Gorilla ........ strong and ugly ( thats what the fitters are for .. or grinders whatever they call them nowdays )

for real .. just stay under the hood and you will be fine
I don't understand how so many people think a weld can be just fixed by cleaning it up with a grinder, or grinding it until it looks "good". What's the point of welding something if your just grinding it down to basically nothing again after anyway. In truth, grind out the whole issue back to square one again f it looks like crap, because its not going to support anything. A good strong weld should never need to be "ground down" or "cleaned up".
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Unread 02-28-2011, 05:35 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by bread61 View Post
its simple ... my welds are Gorilla ........ strong and ugly ( thats what the fitters are for .. or grinders whatever they call them nowdays )

for real .. just stay under the hood and you will be fine
For one thing..Fitters are there only to fit it up according to prints and specs and tack together for the weldors...AND there is always a weldor WITH the fitter most of the time to tack it up for the fitter so it can be fitted and held until the weldor can tack it for him in place if he can't hold it and tack the same time...its always pretty much common practice to have an apprentice learning how to weld or even a good weldor with or close by to do the tacking when needed....

The ONLY time i've ever seen a job description as a "grinder" is just an apprentice learning the whole trade and designated as a "shop hand/helper" and ends up being the one who grinds the torch cuts clean and grind ends of structural peices that have been cut and needing prep for the fitment..i've never seen a deignated person to grind on someone's crap welds....

But..ANYWHERE i have ever been in ANY shop or feild work...if the weldor made a weld that needed ground or repaired..the weldor himself is the one responsible to take care of his crap..no one else..unless the weldor got fired for the crap he layed before he had the chance to repair it...people tend to get real hot headed about having to clean someone elses mess up..............

Wintermute and johnathon97x pretty much hit the nail on the head about ugly "gorilla welds".
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Unread 02-28-2011, 08:30 PM   #95
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I just love it when stick welding you lay a good bead down and have the flux just peels off by it self. Then I know I did it right. The flux did it job by keeping out the oxidation out of the weld. That is the same thing a gases does in mig welding with gas. This means the weld is not only pretty it is going to hold well. I wished I could count how many bubble gum welds I have seen break or fail. Yes some even mine where some of them. I know this much I'm no welder that will work at it for a job. But I can weld the stuff that I do and know that it will not fall apart.

Oh welding god ironworker I bow down to you.
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Unread 03-01-2011, 10:22 AM   #96
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Well that was a tongue n cheek thought I posted...... I own a major Mechanical Contracting co and member of local 48 and at 50yrs of age and welding since 1979 I will tell you I have seen and done my share of welds, my point was to offer encouragement to the lad ... not to school him on the sicence of welding or blast him, some folks think that welding with a wire is some kind of special art ... that only a few can do .. I beg to differ..right its a skill.... however very learnable .. if you are trying to impress the less knowlagable then blow all the smoke you want, the point is to weld and weld and weld if you are going to learn, books and schooling are of value but will not make you a welder . Not in this life or the one to come ,you have to burn a rod in order to apply said knowlage


i cant believe I wasted the time to respond to that
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Unread 03-01-2011, 10:33 AM   #97
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oh btw ,,,, save the TURDS for the RIGGERS they have to eat too . and thats a joke, so dont get all mad and stuff
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Unread 03-01-2011, 10:59 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bread61 View Post
Well that was a tongue n cheek thought I posted...... I own a major Mechanical Contracting co and member of local 48 and at 50yrs of age and welding since 1979 I will tell you I have seen and done my share of welds, my point was to offer encouragement to the lad ... not to school him on the sicence of welding or blast him, some folks think that welding with a wire is some kind of special art ... that only a few can do .. I beg to differ..right its a skill.... however very learnable .. if you are trying to impress the less knowlagable then blow all the smoke you want, the point is to weld and weld and weld if you are going to learn, books and schooling are of value but will not make you a welder . Not in this life or the one to come ,you have to burn a rod in order to apply said knowlage


i cant believe I wasted the time to respond to that
You shouldn't have... because if you have that much experience, you should be offering the same kind of advice we did... It is important that he learn the "science" and understand the "art" or he will not get anywhere, or never realize that his welds will not hold until his custom built bumper he did himself blows apart going down the highway, or kills himself because an important structural weld of some sort did not hold (especially when performing any sort of welds on a vehicle).

I would also like to state that I don't think anyone here is trying to impress the "less knowledgable" but merely trying to offer the same sort of advice any skilled welder received when they first started. I know thats how I learned, it was the same sort of advice and "smoke blowing" that taught me, I'm not sure why you think all of that info is from "schooling and books." As an apprentice you don't start out in "school" you start out in the work place, and receive the same kind of advice that we are offering! The average joe that goes out a buys a welder for his garage, does not receive the helpful tips and comments from a shop foreman or journeyman welders, and may have never received that help even since 1979... It is valuable important information that will save a lot of time and frustration that one does not have to figure out on their own, or may never figure out and just give up. We are merely doing the same thing you did... offering advice, its just more helpful than just telling him to grind away. There are too many people that go out and buy a welder, and think they are a welder. It does take a lot of practice, but grinding to make a weld look pretty or to clean it up should not become part of that practice.
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Unread 03-01-2011, 12:44 PM   #99
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right now, I'm laughing along with the 3 project managers I called in my office to read along with me ,, got a kick out of the replys,..... maybe I should just read from now on. ( I did not mean a ugly weld was a good weld and if your in the trade (I'm sure you have heard that line before) you know as well as I that the comment was a joke... you quoted my experence line, it has also been mine to have seen men use that as a hob nail boot on the neck of the one who is just trying to learn ,they tend to forget their own struggles and short commings learning the craft. After starting apprentice work at the royal sum of 2.90u.s per hr (and yes some classroom study was involved) and owning a company for the last 16 yrs with over 58 employees, I just have a diffrent style of teaching and managment .

sorry if I might have upset anyone
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Unread 03-01-2011, 02:45 PM   #100
jonathon97xj
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Originally Posted by bread61 View Post
right now, I'm laughing along with the 3 project managers I called in my office to read along with me ,, got a kick out of the replys,..... maybe I should just read from now on. ( I did not mean a ugly weld was a good weld and if your in the trade (I'm sure you have heard that line before) you know as well as I that the comment was a joke... you quoted my experence line, it has also been mine to have seen men use that as a hob nail boot on the neck of the one who is just trying to learn ,they tend to forget their own struggles and short commings learning the craft. After starting apprentice work at the royal sum of 2.90u.s per hr (and yes some classroom study was involved) and owning a company for the last 16 yrs with over 58 employees, I just have a diffrent style of teaching and managment .

sorry if I might have upset anyone
Wow, you don't know when to stop do you... you aren't providing any useful help, so give up... Boasting about your "experience," age, company and how many people you employee is not of any help. If you want everyone to know how important you are, just throw it in your profile, and those that care can check it out. All we are saying is that your style of teaching and management "my welds are Gorilla ........ strong and ugly ( thats what the fitters are for .. or grinders whatever they call them nowdays ) " was not good advice at all. I take it you didn't ever finish apprenticing making 2.90 an hour did you.

Hope I didn't upset or offend anyone And glad you and your "3 project managers" (who I'm sure are as skilled and experienced as you) get such a kick out of people actually trying to help someone who needs legitimate good advice.
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Unread 03-01-2011, 05:03 PM   #101
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johnathon97xj, thanks for jumping in here and putting some logic forth.

bread61,

I'm not sure what exactly your teaching methodology is...but let me propose a corollary situation for you here:

New guy on a factory floor walks up to his boss and says he was told to follow the lock-out tag-out procedure by one of the other technicians and wants to know exactly what the procedure is before he greases the bearings on a 40 ton roller. The boss says that that procedure is that you lock the outside door, then make sure you're wearing you name tag before you go to work on the machine. Newbie does so and loses an arm because the machine is still powered and it kicks over dragging his arm into the rollers.

What exactly did this guy learn? He probably learned not to listen to his boss...all in all, in this case a good thing, but he's already short one arm and can't work as a machine technician anymore. He learned that machinery is damned dangerous. During the lawsuit which put his erstwhile employer out of business, he probably learned what the actual lock-out tag-out procedure is. But the fact remains that he didn't learn any of this before losing an arm.

By telling someone who's new to welding and asking for advice (even jokingly but without making it absolutely crystal clear that you're joking) that doing something improperly is okay, you're taking the chance that the individual will take that statement and do something that will hurt or kill himself or others. Do you gain anything out of that? I hope not.

Just accept the fact that you should have put a J/K after that statement in the first place. If you had put that little tag at the end, the rest of this would never have come up.

--Wintermute
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Unread 03-01-2011, 05:04 PM   #102
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Those aren't that bad. Obviously could always be better but it just takes lots of practice. Keep it up.
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Unread 03-01-2011, 05:19 PM   #103
jonathon97xj
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right now, I'm laughing along with the 3 project managers I called in my office to read along with me ,, got a kick out of the replys
Best part is, I can only imagine how many professional journeyman, and experienced welders are laughing at your replies as we speak haha! Says a lot more than a few "project managers" laughing at our helpful and knowledgable replies don't ya think?
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Unread 03-01-2011, 06:32 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bread61 View Post
Well that was a tongue n cheek thought I posted...... I own a major Mechanical Contracting co and member of local 48 and at 50yrs of age and welding since 1979 I will tell you I have seen and done my share of welds, my point was to offer encouragement to the lad ... not to school him on the sicence of welding or blast him, some folks think that welding with a wire is some kind of special art ... that only a few can do .. I beg to differ..right its a skill.... however very learnable .. if you are trying to impress the less knowlagable then blow all the smoke you want, the point is to weld and weld and weld if you are going to learn, books and schooling are of value but will not make you a welder . Not in this life or the one to come ,you have to burn a rod in order to apply said knowlage


i cant believe I wasted the time to respond to that
Quote:
Originally Posted by bread61 View Post
right now, I'm laughing along with the 3 project managers I called in my office to read along with me ,, got a kick out of the replys,..... maybe I should just read from now on. ( I did not mean a ugly weld was a good weld and if your in the trade (I'm sure you have heard that line before) you know as well as I that the comment was a joke... you quoted my experence line, it has also been mine to have seen men use that as a hob nail boot on the neck of the one who is just trying to learn ,they tend to forget their own struggles and short commings learning the craft. After starting apprentice work at the royal sum of 2.90u.s per hr (and yes some classroom study was involved) and owning a company for the last 16 yrs with over 58 employees, I just have a diffrent style of teaching and managment .

sorry if I might have upset anyone
Wow..kind of hard for me to even THINK of where to start...

Ok..lets start with TRYING to fit the puzzle together here....

I geuss it would be the first thing that came to MY mind about all this company owning and being in local 48 (Oklahoma City) but yet you're region is Pinson, Alabama?..which is just a lil town just northeast of Birmingham, Alabama...which would be WELL within the district of the Birmingham local 92 Ironworkers.Maybe you started in local 48 and now own a company in Pinson?..if so..you would know after so many years living in another local district..1 of 3 things WILL happen..you will either transfer you're book with the blessing of the 2 Bussines agents..or move back...or..just drop you're book..which is it?
Yea i know exactly where Pinson is..i've been through there a few times..why?...because i've worked for Birmingham Steel several times..one of the jobs i've worked with them was 3 years in a row in Ragland, Alabama at the Natonal Concrete plant on shutdowns at the beginning of every year and traveled with them to a few states hanging iron as a connector and they flew me and a whole crew to California to the other National Concrete plant for a shutdown..recognize all that?....i mean i would figure since you claim to be that close to there and own a company with 3 project managers standing over you reading all this then you would at least know a little about Birmingham Steel in you're area...

Ok..lets go to the part of being a "Weldor"...or just a "Rod Burner"..see..a Weldor will WANT to learn what he needs..Plus more and do work to the best of his abilities...and a real "weldor" would NEVER settle on saying"i am just a "gorilla weldor"...

Now a rod burner who doesn't care?..yea i've seen quite a few..but we don't let them weld on much of anything that has anything to do with structural integrity or safety related projects.....Rod burners can NEVER give good advice..why?..because they don't care about thier own welds let alone someone else's welds because they just don't care to learn what they are actualy doing....THATS a" gorilla rod burner".........But most of those types i've seen were just drunks or druggies,they weren't into their careers..just a paycheck weekly so they can party it away that weekend..IF they show up enough on jobs to KEEP the job because they really didn't care about BEING an Ironworker...

Now..you say you've been in local 48 since 1979 and started out at 2.90 per hour...that also gave me a little confusion when i sat back and got a look on my face like and thinkin..hmmm..i started in 78 as an apprentice out of local 451 Wilmington, Delaware at 6 dollars and change?....you see...even first year apprentices ALWAYS made substantialy MORE money than minimum wage,if we didn't pay more than that..who in their right mind would even want to bust arse doin ironwork when those same aged kids are makin more money at McDonalds,we'd never get career minded apprentices if that was the case....

Oh the funny about throwing the turds to the riggers?..umm...any ironworker will HAVE to know and study rigging and lifting before they become a Journeyman..why?..well..lets see..if you are weldor..you'll be rigging that heavy peice of turd to turn it over..put it up on the building to be welded into place..flip it to weld the other side...etc etc..all ironworkers learn rigging,which includes weldors..rodbusters..ornamental..structural shops..feild fabrication...Glasiers(know what that is?)..Erectors...etc etc..why?..because its been the standard for ironworkers since what?..1896? to be the ones to deal with all heavy loads and rigging..its just another TOOL for ironworkers because heavy loads are a daily thing for us...


The first comment you made about a fitter grinding YOUR welds out?...ummm...
I think i explained that one in my last post in this thread....and you own a company and would even THINK that?..better yet..an International Ironworker since 1979 and didn't know fitters just plain ole does not do grind out someone's crappy gorilla welds??
I also find it hard to beleive with all those years expereince and owning a company you couldn't even tell the difference between a Fitter and "grinder"...by the way..where do people sign up for a job to be just a "grinder"..honestly..i wanna know because i've NEVER seen a job title on a paycheck say"grinder"?

Soooo..Mr Company owner..please help me put this puzzle together that just doesn't quite seem to fit together for some odd reason?None of this just seems to be fitting together at all


You see..this is the internet..people new to fabrication/welding in THIS forum are looking for GOOD advice to learn..not the usual internet myth BS you see in most other forums,thats why several of us correct Mis-Information about it all in here..because we are TRYING to keep all the riff raf info out of here so these people have a chance at learning THE RIGHT WAY the first time in this forum...


Sorry if i might of upset anyone.....
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Don't DREAM your life, LIVE your dreams

Never forget 9/11

"Welding is like a woman,Get 'er HOT and Penetrate"

Gotta LOVE a person who knows everything about NOTHING

The only Thing necessary for the Evil to win is a good man to do nothing....

"How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young,compassionate with the aged,sympathetic with the striving,and tolerant with the weak and strong--because someday YOU will have been all of these"....George Washington Carver

Want to know what an Ironworker is and the job scope of a Journeyman?..click here...http://www.ironworkers.org/becoming/careers.aspx
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Unread 03-01-2011, 06:33 PM   #105
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Wow..i just realized after reading it again how much i typed in there..lol..sorry mods..

Wintermute and Johnathon97xj BOTH really gave some awesome advice about all this mess..i can tell BOTH of those guys have been around the block a few times and GLAD they are here in this forum to give GOOD information and knowledge and never BS for a "status" in here...my thanks to you guys for helping keep one of my favorite forums straight forward and "in the know"..

And this goes for MANY other good fabrcators and weldors in this forum..you all know who you are...
__________________
Don't DREAM your life, LIVE your dreams

Never forget 9/11

"Welding is like a woman,Get 'er HOT and Penetrate"

Gotta LOVE a person who knows everything about NOTHING

The only Thing necessary for the Evil to win is a good man to do nothing....

"How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young,compassionate with the aged,sympathetic with the striving,and tolerant with the weak and strong--because someday YOU will have been all of these"....George Washington Carver

Want to know what an Ironworker is and the job scope of a Journeyman?..click here...http://www.ironworkers.org/becoming/careers.aspx
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