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Unread 02-27-2011, 02:59 PM   #76
TheBob
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Wow guys! next we should talk about politics and religion! The point is that there are as many different welding techniques as there are welders. What it all comes down to is that you need to use the method that works best for you and your application. Practice and experience are the key. All the talking and advice in the world dont create a good welder, that comes from torch time. As far as the practice welds at the beginning of this thread go, they look a lot better than my first welds. Spend some time and waste some electrode. Thats the only guaranteed way to learn. Hang in there, your off to a great start!

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Unread 02-27-2011, 03:06 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacfanweb View Post
Interesting thread, to say the least. Not calling this specific poster out at all, but you posted all the above links in response to Ironworker, and I read them.
I think you two are talking about different things.
First link, you referenced the sentence below the first photo. That link is about welding aluminum with a spool gun attachment. Not sure it'd apply to what the discussion is here.

Second link seems to disagree with what Ironworker is saying, but not in a "absolute" sort of way. Seems to be more general.

Third link, the sentence you reference simply says a push will result in a " smoother flatter weld bead than when using a drag angle". Not that it's "better" or the "correct way".

Fourth link, Professor Marty, agrees with Ironworker.

Fifth link says push "improves coverage of shielding gas". But also says on "thin mild steel welded horizontally" it doesn't matter. Makes no mention of which style penetrates more. Now, in the "butt welding" link on that page, he has a video of how to do it, and he's pulling. So not real clear which way he thinks is the best, IMO.

Sixth link: says " Pushing usually produces lower penetration and a wider, flatter bead because the arc force is directed away from the weld puddle." Even though it recommends pushing on thinner metal.

Seventh: As you said, but isn't all that clear, IMO.



So not sure many of those examples are refuting what Ironworker is saying. One definitely is, one is irrelevant because it's a different material, some are agreeing, and others are ambiguous.

Again, I think you guys are not exactly talking about the same thing. I seem to remember someone claiming you push because the gas "blows debris out of the way", which is darn sure incorrect. I suppose that COULD happen, but it's not WHY you might do it.
Thank you for helping me prove my point.

My point was....to show that there are different ways of skinning a cat, and that what I'm suggesting "couldn't be further from the truth"....isn't carved in stone.

As far as aluminum being different, it's just less forgiving. Steel mig can be done with a pulling motion, but with aluminum it's not-so-good. The only real difference is that aluminum NEEDS better gas coverage, and pushing provides that. So, that means that it also provides better gas coverage for steel, as well.

Why do you think that several of those sites said that pushing the gun provides better gas coverage? Because it doesn't? It's got to do with the angle of the gun. Sounds logical, no?

Some experts say that pushing penetrates more, provides better gas coverage, etc., while some say that pulling penetrates more, etc. I can guarantee you that with my pushing method (oscellating), that I can get as good of penetration as anyone can using a pulling motion....and a better looking bead, to boot.

Thanks, again.

Rich
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Unread 02-27-2011, 03:47 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rixcj View Post
OK here's the deal...whenever professionals of any industry share opinions, there's always going to be controversy, and disagreements.

When I originally said that pushing the gun results in ......, it is because that is what I was taught, back in 1975, at a shipyard that builds nuclear submarines. All of our welding technique sheets are written by welding engineers that are second to none, because our welding HAS to be as good as any in any other industry.

So, for all the other "experts" in this thread, who are so set in their ways that no one else can be right if their methods are not identical, here are some links to share opposing viewpoints...

Read the sentence beneath the first picture...
http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/articles/index.php?page=articles10.html <this aluminum for one thing,which you clearly stated "clearing a path" on MIG welding STEEL...aluminum is a WHOLE different animal than steel when welding......

Read the last bullet under "Mig/Gmaw Weld Bead Shape"
http://www.weldingspark.com/mig-gmaw-welding.phpWhats the bead shape have ANYTHING to do with penetration???...web link just proved what i said about a smooth "pretty weld" people get with a push technique..BUT..less penetration..you CLEARLY stated that pushing MIG will PENETRATE better the pulling...where does it say in that page about it penetrating better when pushing??...it doesn't....because it is a KNOWN FACT that pulling penetrates more...its just plain common knowledge to any seasoned weldor...

Read the last statement of this article...
http://deltaschooloftrades.com/mig%20welding.htm
Same thing in the article..no where it is saying pushing penetrates better than pulling...but it does specify exactly what i have already said over and over about pushing creates a flatter "prettier weld"...BUT..penetrates less..here's a copy n paste from that page...A slight push angle with the gun will produce a smoother flatter weld bead than when using a drag angle.









Read #17 under Professor Marty's Top Tips...
http://www.thefabricator.com/article/arcwelding/mig-welding-tips-and-resourceslol...and i'd LOVE to see his definition and explanation and ACTUAL cut and acid test to SEE which penetrates better..which i HAVE seen it tested many many years ago..and as a matter of fact..to settle it all..as soon as we are done with the Nuclear Outage i am doing on long nightshift hours..i'll set up an actual weld test between the push or pull technique and acid test them both to SEE which one pentrates better...

Check out "Welding Direction", here...
http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/learning-mig.htmagain..say NO where about pushing penetrates better..only says about shielding gas being AHEAD of the weld and lays a flatter weld..again..less penetration..wanna take another look at the picute beside the "Welding Direction" section where is shows both techniques again?...now tell me which has more of a wider heat discoloration..the push or pull?...ummm..the pull does...know why?..because it PENETRATED better INTO the base metal instead of RIDING on TOP of the puddle...a picture is worth a thousands words at times over a "theory"

More on the push technique...
http://www.customclassictrucks.com/techarticles/0705cct_welding_guide/index.html

And just to let you know that some DO agree with pulling = deeper penetration...look under "Mig Welding Technique Basics"...
http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/we...ners-guide.pdfUmmmm...this is talking about welding SHEETMETAL..lol..heck ANYONE welding sheetmetal will HAVE to push or weld downhill to prevent burn through..why?...pushing or a downhill you will be "riding the puddle" but less heat and penetration INTO the base metal..so it will fill better without a burn through......good got o mighty louise..

Now, I'm not so closed minded to think that MY viewpoints are end-all, but at least I'll accept other opinions, then decide what I thinks makes the most sense to me.

I know for a fact that someone else can provide a bunch of links defending their views as well.

The point is....we can ALL be right, to a certain extent.

Rich
Since you took ALL the time to TRY and find something on the internet and going on a wild west long search n dig..so to speak, that says pushing penetrates better..i just did a "quick" search and came up with all these right there on top of a google search....
Explain to me WHY "ALL" say the same exact thing i said..but yet i am wrong and they are too?...

well i'll be darned..check out this little exerpt directly from the first one on top of a search where they are explaining the reason pulling penetrates more than pushing....word for word..>>>The reason why this method of mig welding has deeper penetration is beacuse the welding arc is not blocked by the weld puddle itself. Therfore it can "bite" into the metal more. See the picture below.

Wow..does all that look kinda familiar?
http://www.learn-how-to-weld.com/mig...h-or-pull.html

here's a few more where the REAL "Pro's" explain WHY pulling penetrates better than pushing in MIG....oh..wait..and one or 1 or 2 of them is the Miller website?..so it ain't so!

http://www.hobartwelders.com/weldtal...hp/t-1975.html

http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...p/t-15503.html

Notice this lil exerpt directly from the Miller website PDF..does this look familiar too???

"15. A drag or pull gun technique will give you a bit more penetration
and a narrower bead. A push gun technique will give you a bit less
penetration, and a wider bead. "
http://www.millerwelds.com/pdf/MIG_Welding_Tips.pdf

One more that some of them actualy say they "like" to push over pulling..but yet..they all end up saying the same exact things others and myself say...Pushing creates a flatter less penetrating "pretty" weld...and a pull is more penetrating and fillment...

http://www.craftkb.com/Uwe/Forum.asp...4/Push-or-pull




Does all this sound kind of familiar?............
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Unread 02-27-2011, 04:09 PM   #79
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And i have seen some on the internet in forums and welding websites for teaching or knowledge "claim" pulling a MIG wire will actualy cause the puddle to push the inert gas out of the weldment area and cause several other problems.....lol..well..i guess you all can just imagine the time it took to pick myself up off the floor from laughing so hard..

Here's a few pics of some MIG on my Lincoln 180 running .035 while i had my equipment at home out to get my Miller Maxstar 200 DX setup and running..for some reason i seen no issues of perosity or an "ugly weld" because i didn't push?

All passes pulled..or dragged..whichever you want to call it,right in my backyard....my next lil experiment will be to do some actual tests on pushing and pulling with the same thickness base metal and machine and size wire..then do a cut and acid etch test to see which penetrated more...

And..i am VERY Un-Bias about everything,so if i'm wrong after these tests?..then i'm wrong..but...i've actualy been personaly involved in these types of tests in some shops when welding MIG and they all turned out the same results..so i am pretty sure what the results will be...
mig1pass.jpg   mig3passes.jpg  
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Unread 02-27-2011, 04:24 PM   #80
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in my quest for knowledge i came across two article that explain what is happening when mig and tig welding aluminum that does actually clean the surface direclty in front of the weld puddle there are two things going on

1. the argon is actually removing the thin oxide layer in what they call sputter cleaning
2 found more in Ac high freq tig welding and is caused by a fluctuating arc is called cathode cleaning

remove the thin oxide layer. even on a piece of material that has been sanded and wire brushed

this is not directed at anyone but just to serve as some useful info here are the articles if anybody cares

http://books.google.com/books?id=Wbw...page&q&f=false


//www.aws.org/wj/supplement/wj0110-1.pdf[/URL]
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Unread 02-27-2011, 04:32 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepfreek383 View Post
in my quest for knowledge i came across two article that explain what is happening when mig and tig welding aluminum that does actually clean the surface direclty in front of the weld puddle there are two things going on

1. the argon is actually removing the thin oxide layer in what they call sputter cleaning
2 found more in Ac high freq tig welding and is caused by a fluctuating arc is called cathode cleaning

remove the thin oxide layer. even on a piece of material that has been sanded and wire brushed

this is not directed at anyone but just to serve as some useful info here are the articles if anybody cares

http://books.google.com/books?id=Wbw...page&q&f=false


//www.aws.org/wj/supplement/wj0110-1.pdf[/URL]
Cool..

So here's a suggestion for you to experiment with next time you are welding aluminum....turn youre inert gas on but leave the machine off and direct the gas flow right into..ahead..around..or where ever you feel like on the aluminum and let us know how well it cleaned the oxide off by itself with no heat...

Thats the point i have been TRYING to get across..yes you need inert gas where ever the HEAT is..including in front..behind..the sides and IN the weldment..but it does NOT clean anything but airborne contaminants..it doesn't clean anything physical.
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Unread 02-27-2011, 04:54 PM   #82
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i guess you didnt look at the articles it happens as the material in heated and it happens at at ionic level and involves HEAT AND ARGON. there are a lot more things goin on when you weld then what you think maybe you wouldnt or couldnt understand some people are just to one minded. but hey your the welding god in this formum so im sorry if i offended thee my lord
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Unread 02-27-2011, 05:01 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by jeepfreek383 View Post
i guess you didnt look at the articles it happens as the material in heated and it happens at at ionic level and involves HEAT AND ARGON. there are a lot more things goin on when you weld then what you think maybe you wouldnt or couldnt understand some people are just to one minded. but hey your the welding god in this formum so im sorry if i offended thee my lord
weld god?...

Umm..no..there are MANY very knowledgable weldors with hands on expereince under their belt in here..i just happen to be one who cuts through the BS and gets right to the point when people are mis-informed or just does not understand...in other words..i'm BLUNT about things..and thats anywhere..internet..real life scenarios..at work...etc etc...maybe thats why companies call me out on jobs everywhere now as a boss..because i cut through the chase and un-bias about things and never feed BS just to get a "status"
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The only Thing necessary for the Evil to win is a good man to do nothing....

"How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young,compassionate with the aged,sympathetic with the striving,and tolerant with the weak and strong--because someday YOU will have been all of these"....George Washington Carver

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Unread 02-27-2011, 05:26 PM   #84
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jeepfreek. You need to actually read those articles. Again, let me explain this. Argon is inert. If you need further clarification on that part...it's easy to find. In the AWS pdf you linked, there is a description of the sputtering effect you are referencing. Actually, there's alot of description for it. The general gist of it is that high energy atomic particles will eject substrate materials (a simpler description used in physics is shooting a BB at a concrete block...it chips and ejects a portion of the surface of the block). The key in welding is that high energy IONs are used. Argon atoms are not. The argon allows high energy ions to do this without instantly forming more oxides through contact with oxygen than would be ejected by the bombardement of high energy ions. AC cleaning action is another subject that could be discussed in depth, but it's well documented as well and there is no need. In the event of DCEP welding of aluminum in a pure vacuum with no shielding gas, the ion bombardment ejection of surface oxides is also seen.

Simply put...shielding gas (in most cases) is inert. It is used to protect against air contamination but in and of itself does nothing to the metal although it will change the ionic characteristics of the arc which is why there are so very many different mixes of shielding gases. What actually cleans aluminum during the welding process is the ionic bombardment caused by the arc itself. This is a well documented physics phenomenom and doesn't need to be debated. AC cleaning is caused by much the same effect but with a manipulation of the square wave current frequency. This type of cleaning can be adjusted by changing the balance levels of the current alternation.

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Unread 02-27-2011, 05:26 PM   #85
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whatever dude. i find factual info from very reliable sources and you still cant accept it because it goes against what you think is true. some people are legends in their own mind, or own armchair so keep on meltin metal and keep us all informed because nobody else here can do it without your vast knowledge on the subject. seriously thank you
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Unread 02-27-2011, 05:31 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintermute View Post
jeepfreek. You need to actually read those articles. Again, let me explain this. Argon is inert. If you need further clarification on that part...it's easy to find. In the AWS pdf you linked, there is a description of the sputtering effect you are referencing. Actually, there's alot of description for it. The general gist of it is that high energy atomic particles will eject substrate materials (a simpler description used in physics is shooting a BB at a concrete block...it chips and ejects a portion of the surface of the block). The key in welding is that high energy IONs are used. Argon atoms are not. The argon allows high energy ions to do this without instantly forming more oxides through contact with oxygen than would be ejected by the bombardement of high energy ions. AC cleaning action is another subject that could be discussed in depth, but it's well documented as well and there is no need. In the event of DCEP welding of aluminum in a pure vacuum with no shielding gas, the ion bombardment ejection of surface oxides is also seen.

Simply put...shielding gas (in most cases) is inert. It is used to protect against air contamination but in and of itself does nothing to the metal although it will change the ionic characteristics of the arc which is why there are so very many different mixes of shielding gases. What actually cleans aluminum during the welding process is the ionic bombardment caused by the arc itself. This is a well documented physics phenomenom and doesn't need to be debated. AC cleaning is caused by much the same effect but with a manipulation of the square wave current frequency. This type of cleaning can be adjusted by changing the balance levels of the current alternation.

--Wintermute
yes you are right about the aws article. im i am not disagreeing with that (ac cleaning) but look at section 9.6 of the other article about argon thats all. this is getting way out there now so im not going to bring it anymore
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Unread 02-27-2011, 05:32 PM   #87
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Lemme explain one simple item here. Physics is physics. Removal of surface particles by ionic excitment is a well known phenomenom. The documents you linked describe it adequately and they never once in there say that the shielding gas is performing the removal of surface oxides. Ionic blast removal of surface particles is actually done quite often using lasers in vacuum environments. It's the same thing. If you want to argue physics...then we need to take this discussion to a totally different forum.

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Unread 02-27-2011, 05:37 PM   #88
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yes you are right about the aws article. im i am not disagreeing with that but look at section 9.6 of the other article about argon thats all
In that section it is discussing ionization potential. Ionization potential is something that is inherent in all matter. Relate to where I referenced the different arc characteristics based on the shielding gas utilized. This is also a well known physics phenomenom. This is the reason you get neon signs...it's gas ionization. I'm not trying to piss you off here, honestly, I'm not. All I'm trying to do here is clarify.

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Unread 02-27-2011, 05:44 PM   #89
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that article states "argon is more effective in sputtering cleaning of the oxide layer on the joint surfaces" argon sputtering can be researched as well . im not being offended and do enjoy a debate as long as people are willing to accept different views but in this case i am goin to drop the topic you can believe what you want and i will do the same thats it ... so anyway cant wait for those test pieces to arrive back to push vs pull on this subject i agree with ironworker believe it or not
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Unread 02-27-2011, 05:51 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by jeepfreek383 View Post
whatever dude. i find factual info from very reliable sources and you still cant accept it because it goes against what you think is true. some people are legends in their own mind, or own armchair so keep on meltin metal and keep us all informed because nobody else here can do it without your vast knowledge on the subject. seriously thank you
yes you are getting GOOD info.....BUT..you are NOT understanding what you are trying to read.

So keep on attacking about how i am a weld god in this forum..or better yet..just an "arm chair" type of internet person...as a matter of fact..i sure do WISH i had a recliner in all those years to sit in while i learned and actualy DID all this instead of reading and watching videos and suddenly becoming a "master" of the subject.....lol

Reading is good knowledge..but one must get the actual HANDS ON TIME to understand the subject more.........
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Gotta LOVE a person who knows everything about NOTHING

The only Thing necessary for the Evil to win is a good man to do nothing....

"How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young,compassionate with the aged,sympathetic with the striving,and tolerant with the weak and strong--because someday YOU will have been all of these"....George Washington Carver

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