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Unread 02-27-2011, 11:32 AM   #61
jeepfreek383
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the clouded white area is your gas coverage around the puddle and the arc. so did you notice in the video how you can see oxidation being removed as the cloud came forward ill im saying is this is what i call clearing a path you cant say you dont see it happening did you read the article that was with the video it touches on the cleansing effect

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Unread 02-27-2011, 11:41 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by jeepfreek383 View Post
the clouded white area is your gas coverage around the puddle and the arc. so did you notice in the video how you can see oxidation being removed as the cloud came forward ill im saying is this is what i call clearing a path you cant say you dont see it happening did you read the article that was with the video it touches on the cleansing effect
Videos?..umm..naa..i never watch online videos..

The cleansing effect you speak of is not from an inert gas by itself..it is a combination of the heat being sucked into that area and the aluminum having the Heat Sink effect in that area..so yes..it does need inert gas in that area also..but it is not JUST ahead of the weldment..it is 100% all around the welded area for the fact the aluminum in that area is on the verge of also"melting" because of the massive heat sucked into that area away from the weld...an inert gas can no way possibly remove oxidation scale on its own..it's just plain impossible..its the HEAT that is doing so.

Have you ever tried an aluminum stick weld?..i have a few years back at a paper plant in Savannah Ga where we added a catwalk on the side of building so the pipe could easily be maintained and modded in the future when needed..we had to remove the old aluminum handrail and then modify and add more to it be used on the catwalk..they handed me a few pounds of aluminum stick rod..i was amased..never seen it before..and was totaly surprised at how well it welded but you have t practicly haul balls with it....but...you also get that shiny "halo ring" around the welded area you speak of..and it is a flux rod..no inert gas...because it "burned" the oxidation and contaminates off........
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Unread 02-27-2011, 11:50 AM   #63
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first you say there is no cleansing now you agree it is being cleaned somehow all i saw saying that clearing the path is a common term and you can see it happening in the video. i wont think any less of you for admitting you were wrong on this(the cleaning part) because there is a cleansing action that is taking place in the weld area . if you dont watch videos then read the articles i do enough welding and can say i see it happen first hand the video also shows it. now if your talking about tig wled ing aluminum the cleansing is caused by the ac current but mig welding al you are running dc so i cant say that is the case there. i could be wrong on it being just the gas i dont know for sure what else would cause it.

how about we agree at least that there is a cleansing action being caused by something
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Unread 02-27-2011, 12:02 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by jeepfreek383 View Post
first you say there is no cleansing now you agree it is being cleaned somehow all i saw saying that clearing the path is a common term and you can see it happening in the video. i wont think any less of you for admitting you were wrong on this because there is a cleansing action that is taking place in the weld area . if you dont watch videos then read the articles i do enough welding and can say i see it happen first hand the video also shows it. now if your talking about tig wled ing aluminum the cleansing is caused by the ac current but mig welding al you are running dc so i cant say that is the case there.
lol..now you're putting words in my mouth that was never there..i said"INERT GAS" will NEVER clean the oxidation...the HEAT does it....its just plain IMPOSSIBLE for an inert gas to clean anything but AIRBORNE contaminates in the surrounding areas..and is ONLY needed in the WELD itself while it is still in the arc/puddle form

You need AC "high frequency" for TIG'n aluminum..did you forget that part or just left it out?

I could care less what ANYONE "thinks" of me..i've playin with all types of metal and alloys since 1978 and always jump in when an off the wall crazy "theory" is put in a thread where new people who don;t understand may and/or will get mis'informed.

All this was started about a comment that an inert gas was actualy "clearing a path" in MIG welding STEEL ahead of the weld..IMPOSSIBLE...but..common sense and general rules of thumb knowledge in any fabrication/welding always prevails over internet "theories"........
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Unread 02-27-2011, 12:13 PM   #65
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here i hope this ends this lilttle agrument striaght from millers web site half way down the page
http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/articles/Master-MIG-welding-

quoted from miller
"GMAWProper gas coverage is key around the weld puddle so that the arc and argon cleans off the oxide coating on the aluminum creating good fusion."

unless you think the years of experience miller has in the world of welding are just internet theories. what bothers me is when someone who has been around for a long time automatically jumps on someone else who might also know a little bit about a subject to show they still no more. in this case you were wrong
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Unread 02-27-2011, 12:19 PM   #66
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here i hope this ends this lilttle agrument striaght from millers web site half way down the page
http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/articles/Master-MIG-welding-

quoted from miller
"GMAWProper gas coverage is key around the weld puddle so that the ---arc and argon--- cleans off the oxide coating on the aluminum creating good fusion."
Notice part where it says"ARC".....as i have ALREADY said..the HEAT/ARC cleans the oxide off..IMPOSSIBLE for an inert gas to do it alone...the inert gas just has to be there to PREVENT any contaminates into the welded area.......if that was the case,then why does an aluminum stick weld work?...because of the HEAT it creates that BURNS the oxidation off.....

Thank YOU for pointing that out....
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Unread 02-27-2011, 12:24 PM   #67
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so then you admit it is arc AND ARGON that causes the cleansing. if miller says its im pretty sure its true but it sounds like your calling miller liers
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Unread 02-27-2011, 12:36 PM   #68
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so then you admit it is arc AND ARGON that causes the cleansing. if miller says its im pretty sure its true but it sounds like your calling miller liers
You know..i NEVER get too personal on these forums and threads..but..all i can say is,YOU have some kind of personal issue that you DO NOT UNDERSTAND what YOU are TRYING to talk about...

Let me try this AGAIN..the inert gas is ONLY there for a shielding purpose..it does NOT clean anything but AIRBORNE contaminates IN THE WELD ITSELF while it is in the molten stage..did that sink in this time?

It has never and never WILL clear ANY oxidation on ANYTHING on its own..the HEAT does that work..the inert gas just has to be present in the IMMEDIATE area of the weldment ITSELF..and THAT my freind is exactly what Miller is saying too but you just can't seem to understand that and looking for someone to say...."ok jeepfreak!..you are the the master of this subject and i am totaly wrong and NEVER welded a day in my life!"...welll buddy..THAT will NEVER happen over here on this side..........

Go watch more videos and books and internet theories and please..let things SINK IN this time....

My opology to the mods here.....as you ALL know i never get this way on these threads..but holy______
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Unread 02-27-2011, 12:37 PM   #69
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Videos?..umm..naa..i never watch online videos..

The cleansing effect you speak of is not from an inert gas by itself..it is a combination of the heat being sucked into that area and the aluminum having the Heat Sink effect in that area..so yes..it does need inert gas in that area also..but it is not JUST ahead of the weldment..it is 100% all around the welded area for the fact the aluminum in that area is on the verge of also"melting" because of the massive heat sucked into that area away from the weld...an inert gas can no way possibly remove oxidation scale on its own..it's just plain impossible..its the HEAT that is doing so.

Have you ever tried an aluminum stick weld?..i have a few years back at a paper plant in Savannah Ga where we added a catwalk on the side of building so the pipe could easily be maintained and modded in the future when needed..we had to remove the old aluminum handrail and then modify and add more to it be used on the catwalk..they handed me a few pounds of aluminum stick rod..i was amased..never seen it before..and was totaly surprised at how well it welded but you have t practicly haul balls with it....but...you also get that shiny "halo ring" around the welded area you speak of..and it is a flux rod..no inert gas...because it "burned" the oxidation and contaminates off........
one other thing i would like to point out that im sure you already know since you have been in the welding field since 197whatever is that smaw or stick welding release a gas and flux as you weld that helps shield the puddle. im not the smartest person or ever claimed to know it all but i do know enough to have some say... and since when is reading a book bad. if your going to become a weld engineer say you cant do it without lots of book work im done with this sorry if anybody got offended (mods)
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Unread 02-27-2011, 12:41 PM   #70
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one other thing i would like to point out that im sure you already know since you have been in the welding field since 197whatever is that smaw or stick welding release a gas and flux as you weld that helps shield the puddle im done now
OH MY------ GAWD.........

If it releases a gas for inert gas purposes..then i wonder why it works so well in any wind conditions?...hmmmmmmm.....
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The only Thing necessary for the Evil to win is a good man to do nothing....

"How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young,compassionate with the aged,sympathetic with the striving,and tolerant with the weak and strong--because someday YOU will have been all of these"....George Washington Carver

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Unread 02-27-2011, 12:51 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Ironworker709 View Post
THIS is where the confusion started with everyone...

Clearing a path ahead of the weldment helps none whatsoever,as long as the Gas is set at the right flow IN the weldment,there is no reason for "clearing a path" ahead of the weld.

This is the reason why you can not set you're gas flow too high,instead of laying and flowing in the welded area ,it will pull contaminates INTO the welded area.You want/need the inert gas to stay IN the weld as long as possible,not ahead of it.

If this was true,i would THINK manufacturers would of designed and made a nozzle cup by now that would direct the gas flow ahead of the weld and made a killing with a patent like that..but unfortunetly..i've never seen or heard of one?

It all started when it was "said" that pushing any wirefeed process penetrates more when being pushed vs. pulling,that couldn't be further from the truth and other very knowledgable weldors and myself was just trying to clarify the actual facts so that beginners do not get the wrong info/impression.
OK here's the deal...whenever professionals of any industry share opinions, there's always going to be controversy, and disagreements.

When I originally said that pushing the gun results in ......, it is because that is what I was taught, back in 1975, at a shipyard that builds nuclear submarines. All of our welding technique sheets are written by welding engineers that are second to none, because our welding HAS to be as good as any in any other industry.

So, for all the other "experts" in this thread, who are so set in their ways that no one else can be right if their methods are not identical, here are some links to share opposing viewpoints...

Read the sentence beneath the first picture...
http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/articles/index.php?page=articles10.html

Read the last bullet under "Mig/Gmaw Weld Bead Shape"
http://www.weldingspark.com/mig-gmaw-welding.php

Read the last statement of this article...
http://deltaschooloftrades.com/mig%20welding.htm


Read #17 under Professor Marty's Top Tips...
http://www.thefabricator.com/article/arcwelding/mig-welding-tips-and-resources

Check out "Welding Direction", here...
http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/learning-mig.htm

More on the push technique...
http://www.customclassictrucks.com/techarticles/0705cct_welding_guide/index.html

And just to let you know that some DO agree with pulling = deeper penetration...look under "Mig Welding Technique Basics"...
http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/we...ners-guide.pdf

Now, I'm not so closed minded to think that MY viewpoints are end-all, but at least I'll accept other opinions, then decide what I thinks makes the most sense to me.

I know for a fact that someone else can provide a bunch of links defending their views as well.

The point is....we can ALL be right, to a certain extent.

Rich
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Unread 02-27-2011, 12:54 PM   #72
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i dont think you need to be schooled but he incase you missed it along the way the gas is released to shield and protect the weld i dont have theories these are facts.

Shielded metal arc welding (SMAW), also known as manual metal arc (MMA) welding, flux-shielded arc welding[1] or informally as stick welding, is a manual arc welding process that uses a consumable electrode coated in flux to lay the weld. An electric current, in the form of either alternating current or direct current from a welding power supply, is used to form an electric arc between the electrode and the metals to be joined. As the weld is laid, the flux coating of the electrode disintegrates, giving off vapors that serve as a shielding gas and providing a layer of slag, both of which protect the weld area from atmospheric contamination.

is this wrong too? what im trying to show is you know a lot but is what you know based on theory or fact
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Unread 02-27-2011, 01:03 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by jeepfreek383 View Post
i dont think you need to be schooled but he incase you missed it along the way the gas is released to shield and protect the weld i dont have theories these are facts.

Shielded metal arc welding (SMAW), also known as manual metal arc (MMA) welding, flux-shielded arc welding[1] or informally as stick welding, is a manual arc welding process that uses a consumable electrode coated in flux to lay the weld. An electric current, in the form of either alternating current or direct current from a welding power supply, is used to form an electric arc between the electrode and the metals to be joined. As the weld is laid, the flux coating of the electrode disintegrates, giving off vapors that serve as a shielding gas and providing a layer of slag, both of which protect the weld area from atmospheric contamination.

is this wrong too? what im trying to show is you know a lot but is what you know based on theory or fact

Yes..YOU are wrong..then please explain to me why when stick welding in a 30 MPH wind(which would EASILY blow all inert gasses off the weld) the weld never gets any perosity in it and the weld is just as good as no wind???

I think you read alot of material but really don't understand what you are reading,,,the gasses are IN the flux itself..it has NOTHING to do with sheilding the area..the FLUX does........boy oh boy.....
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Gotta LOVE a person who knows everything about NOTHING

The only Thing necessary for the Evil to win is a good man to do nothing....

"How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young,compassionate with the aged,sympathetic with the striving,and tolerant with the weak and strong--because someday YOU will have been all of these"....George Washington Carver

Want to know what an Ironworker is and the job scope of a Journeyman?..click here...http://www.ironworkers.org/becoming/careers.aspx
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Unread 02-27-2011, 01:11 PM   #74
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i thought it wa clear enough as the rod burns it gives off a gas that along with the flux shield the weld both of them work together its almiost like a double coverage maybe that exlpains why it works so good in windy conditions im simply pointing out that you said smaw involves no gas thats all. the slag also protecs as it cools almost immediatly after comsumption

"Shielded metal arc welding (SMAW), also known as manual metal arc (MMA) welding, flux-shielded arc welding[1] or informally as stick welding, is a manual arc welding process that uses a consumable electrode coated in flux to lay the weld. An electric current, in the form of either alternating current or direct current from a welding power supply, is used to form an electric arc between the electrode and the metals to be joined. As the weld is laid, the flux coating of the electrode disintegrates, giving off vapors that serve as a shielding gas and providing a layer of slag, both of which protect the weld area from atmospheric contamination."


that quote about smaw was from one of those there books that us crazy people read its called an encyclopedia
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Unread 02-27-2011, 01:32 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by rixcj View Post
OK here's the deal...whenever professionals of any industry share opinions, there's always going to be controversy, and disagreements.

When I originally said that pushing the gun results in ......, it is because that is what I was taught, back in 1975, at a shipyard that builds nuclear submarines. All of our welding technique sheets are written by welding engineers that are second to none, because our welding HAS to be as good as any in any other industry.

So, for all the other "experts" in this thread, who are so set in their ways that no one else can be right if their methods are not identical, here are some links to share opposing viewpoints...

Read the sentence beneath the first picture...
http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/articles/index.php?page=articles10.html

Read the last bullet under "Mig/Gmaw Weld Bead Shape"
http://www.weldingspark.com/mig-gmaw-welding.php

Read the last statement of this article...
http://deltaschooloftrades.com/mig%20welding.htm


Read #17 under Professor Marty's Top Tips...
http://www.thefabricator.com/article/arcwelding/mig-welding-tips-and-resources

Check out "Welding Direction", here...
http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/learning-mig.htm

More on the push technique...
http://www.customclassictrucks.com/techarticles/0705cct_welding_guide/index.html

And just to let you know that some DO agree with pulling = deeper penetration...look under "Mig Welding Technique Basics"...
http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/we...ners-guide.pdf

Now, I'm not so closed minded to think that MY viewpoints are end-all, but at least I'll accept other opinions, then decide what I thinks makes the most sense to me.

I know for a fact that someone else can provide a bunch of links defending their views as well.

The point is....we can ALL be right, to a certain extent.

Rich
Interesting thread, to say the least. Not calling this specific poster out at all, but you posted all the above links in response to Ironworker, and I read them.
I think you two are talking about different things.
First link, you referenced the sentence below the first photo. That link is about welding aluminum with a spool gun attachment. Not sure it'd apply to what the discussion is here.

Second link seems to disagree with what Ironworker is saying, but not in a "absolute" sort of way. Seems to be more general.

Third link, the sentence you reference simply says a push will result in a " smoother flatter weld bead than when using a drag angle". Not that it's "better" or the "correct way".

Fourth link, Professor Marty, agrees with Ironworker.

Fifth link says push "improves coverage of shielding gas". But also says on "thin mild steel welded horizontally" it doesn't matter. Makes no mention of which style penetrates more. Now, in the "butt welding" link on that page, he has a video of how to do it, and he's pulling. So not real clear which way he thinks is the best, IMO.

Sixth link: says " Pushing usually produces lower penetration and a wider, flatter bead because the arc force is directed away from the weld puddle." Even though it recommends pushing on thinner metal.

Seventh: As you said, but isn't all that clear, IMO.



So not sure many of those examples are refuting what Ironworker is saying. One definitely is, one is irrelevant because it's a different material, some are agreeing, and others are ambiguous.

Again, I think you guys are not exactly talking about the same thing. I seem to remember someone claiming you push because the gas "blows debris out of the way", which is darn sure incorrect. I suppose that COULD happen, but it's not WHY you might do it.
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